hwkfn1
Junior Member
Posts: 258
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Post by hwkfn1 on Nov 7, 2019 17:37:12 GMT -6
I have often wondered how some of these coaches that coach at traditional powerhouses would do at some of our schools that do not have much traditional. I'm not talking about coaches that built their schools into powerhouses, but inherited the tradition. Would they be successful? Could they handle losing? I know of one coach who won some state championships at a Catholic school and left to go to a public inner city school. He built that program to the point where they were in the playoffs, though he never won a state championship with them. I will always give that guy a ton of credit. What are your thoughts?
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Post by CS on Nov 7, 2019 18:02:31 GMT -6
I have often wondered how some of these coaches that coach at traditional powerhouses would do at some of our schools that do not have much traditional. I'm not talking about coaches that built their schools into powerhouses, but inherited the tradition. Would they be successful? Could they handle losing? I know of one coach who won some state championships at a Catholic school and left to go to a public inner city school. He built that program to the point where they were in the playoffs, though he never won a state championship with them. I will always give that guy a ton of credit. What are your thoughts? When you know how to win you know how to win. You may never see state titles in some places but you will more often then not be competitive |
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Post by CanyonCoach on Nov 7, 2019 19:15:31 GMT -6
We get to play a team that has been built from the ground up basically by one coaching staff.
Play-off team every year since 2007, 3 state championships and 4 runner-ups in that time period.
They have only missed the play-off twice since 2000.
They have had the same OC/DC and HC that entire time.
Most importantly they are an absolute class act in every aspect.
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Post by wingtol on Nov 7, 2019 20:18:48 GMT -6
I would like to see some of these guys at power house almost small college like schools go from that to a place that has like 25 players total where you have guys playing 3 ways and no backups.
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 7, 2019 20:24:50 GMT -6
I have often wondered how some of these coaches that coach at traditional powerhouses would do at some of our schools that do not have much traditional. I'm not talking about coaches that built their schools into powerhouses, but inherited the tradition. Would they be successful? Could they handle losing? I know of one coach who won some state championships at a Catholic school and left to go to a public inner city school. He built that program to the point where they were in the playoffs, though he never won a state championship with them. I will always give that guy a ton of credit. What are your thoughts? One of the Head Coaches of Evangel Christian Academy--in fact I believe he was the Header when they went 60-0 on the field over a 4 year span (but later had to forfeit some of those wins due to ineligible player) and won 9 state titles beating teams with 5 - 6 times their enrollment is currently 4-5 (1-5 in district ) at a rural public school in Louisiana. Last year he was 4-7 (0-5 in district) at a different rural louisiana public school... |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2019 21:10:33 GMT -6
I got to spend one season at a local "powerhouse," but we were a bit down at that time. Most of the coaches there had been other places--we had two former HCs serving as assistants--and just about everyone on staff could have been solid HCs elsewhere if they wanted. The other powerhouse programs in my area get a lot of top notch assistant coaches by hiring HCs away from poorer/less successful programs and giving them a raise for less responsibility and headaches.
So... I'd say that a lot of it just depends on where they go. You don't get to coach at a "powerhouse" by being a bad coach and you learn a lot of football from working with the calibre of staff that's there. However, if you go to a school with nothing and have to build it up... you may struggle.
About a decade ago, a school in our area hired a retired HOF coach from a small school powerhouse in VA to come in and turn their doormat program around. He was there for one year and went 0-10. He cursed the guy who recommended it to him when he saw how little talent was there.
I've seen that pattern play out a lot. One of the top programs in our state is Maryville, TN--the team that took over as having the nation's longest winning streak after De La Salle's ended. Maryville played played for a state championship every year for 20 years, winning 13 of those games. A lot of assistants and former players get HC jobs because of their ties to that school and the reputation it gives them. Some have been successful and some haven't, but none have ever come close to matching the success of Maryville
Meanwhile, there are some coaches who have an almost uncanny knack for getting a job right as a wave of talent is coming through, riding that wave to a lot of success, and then bailing out with the program on top while leaving someone else to walk into a train wreck as they go on to repeat the cycle again elsewhere.
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Post by morris on Nov 8, 2019 6:05:41 GMT -6
I would like to see some of these guys at power house almost small college like schools go from that to a place that has like 25 players total where you have guys playing 3 ways and no backups. This! I think one of the biggest struggles is support and infrastructure. These teams will have three different helmets, lifting in school, better pay for assistance, do not teach full loads and more. While some of us have to fundraise just to have our helmets reconditioned. |
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Post by wingtol on Nov 8, 2019 6:47:29 GMT -6
I would like to see some of these guys at power house almost small college like schools go from that to a place that has like 25 players total where you have guys playing 3 ways and no backups. This! I think one of the biggest struggles is support and infrastructure. These teams will have three different helmets, lifting in school, better pay for assistance, do not teach full loads and more. While some of us have to fundraise just to have our helmets reconditioned. Where's the scout team O? This is the scout team O. What are those garbage cans doing here? That's the LG and LT for scout O coach... LOL I've always wondered how those guys would react with small teams and budgets. Like when your LB get dinged and you just have to grab a kid and throw them in for a few plays because there are 6 kids left on the sidelines and hope for the best. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2019 7:02:21 GMT -6
Another example... and it's sort of tangentially related to the Maryville thing I mentioned above.
There's a coach who had a lifetime record of 178-78 in 21 years as a coach, including 59-17 at his last school in the Nashville suburbs. He was forced out over some weirdness and wound up teaching at a doormat school in Maryville's backyard--a school that loses a lot of its top athletes to the dominant powerhouse programs at Maryville and Alcoa each year.
Since he's been there, he's 12-40. Did he suddenly forget how to coach? Of course not! It's just that a lot of this stuff is contextual. And, I should point out that after going 2-9 his first couple of seasons (our playoff system was even stupider then), he's now 4-6 this year, which is their best record in forever.
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Post by coachcb on Nov 8, 2019 7:47:26 GMT -6
I would like to see some of these guys at power house almost small college like schools go from that to a place that has like 25 players total where you have guys playing 3 ways and no backups.
Yup.... I've coached at every classification in this state and it's a huge wake up call when you move into a situation like this. My entire train of thought changed drastically when it came to schemes, practice planning, setting a depth chart (etc..). Many things that I took for granted in a bigger program went right out the window the first time I started working in a school with limited numbers.
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Post by badtotheflexbone on Nov 9, 2019 0:57:09 GMT -6
This kinda happened already at an extreme level. Look up the story for Sean Peyton coaching his son's youth team when he was banned from the NFL from a year. He couldn't stop a Singlewing youth coach and ended up getting demolished in the championship game. Different context but same idea
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RnS-OC
Sophomore Member
Posts: 117 
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Post by RnS-OC on Nov 10, 2019 18:08:49 GMT -6
I think in a weird way this falls into the nurture vs. nature argument. I think the general consensus is that a program has a floor and a ceiling depending on things like enrollment, funding, talent pool, tradition, and competition. A great coach brings that program close to the ceiling and a bad coach close to the floor. I’ve experienced both - my second year as a JV assistant our varsity went winless, and we recently won our 7th straight league title. It’s a pretty even playing field in our league and we could replicate this elsewhere, but can’t help but wonder how we would do with a larger enrollment or greater talent pool.
It feels like we are getting close to reaching our limits here due to enrollment, average talent, and lack of institutional support. There are five schools ranked ahead of us in our State and they all have at least a half dozen D1 recruits on their rosters, whereas we have had three in the past ten years. Hard to imagine us making that leap.
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Post by wildcatslbcoach24 on Nov 10, 2019 18:54:58 GMT -6
I think if you look at the good and bad of a powerhouse it can be very helpful if you choose then to go to a program with lots of areas of growth. Take what worked, not let what didn’t and you should be good. If your powerhouse had a good OL, become the OL coach’s shadow. If you “out athleted” teams with a decent or poor OL create your own good rules and clinic with good coaches. Really look at how practice was organized, how the workout plan was created, and how they teach OL/ DL. If you get good at those three areas you can take a weaker, possibly door mat team and turn them around.
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Post by CanyonCoach on Nov 10, 2019 19:38:25 GMT -6
We get to play a team that has been built from the ground up basically by one coaching staff. Play-off team every year since 2007, 3 state championships and 4 runner-ups in that time period. They have only missed the play-off twice since 2000. They have had the same OC/DC and HC that entire time. Most importantly they are an absolute class act in every aspect. We lost 27-21. Gave them a solid scare. First game I have ever been in that I truly believe that we didn't loose we just ran out of time. |
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Post by pvogel on Nov 10, 2019 20:16:51 GMT -6
I would like to see some of these guys at power house almost small college like schools go from that to a place that has like 25 players total where you have guys playing 3 ways and no backups. For real. "Why can't they understand this?? It's so simple! We only have 4 coverages! Whats so difficult??" Coach, we have half the time to work with them on D. Also they aren't football geniuses anyways and are also trying to remember their myriad of assignments in all the other phases of the game. "Timmy got suspended and will miss Friday's game. So we need to prepare our backup Center, Nose, kicker, punter, and left guard on KOR" |
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 10, 2019 20:47:50 GMT -6
I would like to see some of these guys at power house almost small college like schools go from that to a place that has like 25 players total where you have guys playing 3 ways and no backups. Why do you think that a coach who has proven himself successful at a larger school would not be intelligent enough to notice the differences, see what needed to be adjusted, and then make said adjustments? |
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Post by wingtol on Nov 10, 2019 21:11:07 GMT -6
I would like to see some of these guys at power house almost small college like schools go from that to a place that has like 25 players total where you have guys playing 3 ways and no backups. Why do you think that a coach who has proven himself successful at a larger school would not be intelligent enough to notice the differences, see what needed to be adjusted, and then make said adjustments? Not a question of intelligence just a completely different set of problems to solve. When you’re use to being able to say “put the back up in” instead of “ okay put Tommy at guard move Fred from FB to TE and throw the extra OL jersey on your TE” cause he’s also your back up OT. Or as I struggled with in my 20+ years of coaching for the first time this year how do you run a team D period with 18 players when your opponent runs DWDTE with wing motion every play and all kinds of pullers. Just saying it’s a different animal and if you aren’t use to it or experienced in it, it will rock your world real quick. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 10, 2019 21:46:01 GMT -6
Why do you think that a coach who has proven himself successful at a larger school would not be intelligent enough to notice the differences, see what needed to be adjusted, and then make said adjustments? Not a question of intelligence just a completely different set of problems to solve. When you’re use to being able to say “put the back up in” instead of “ okay put Tommy at guard move Fred from FB to TE and throw the extra OL jersey on your TE” cause he’s also your back up OT. Or as I struggled with in my 20+ years of coaching for the first time this year how do you run a team D period with 18 players when your opponent runs DWDTE with wing motion every play and all kinds of pullers. Just saying it’s a different animal and if you aren’t use to it or experienced in it, it will rock your world real quick. Definitely different. But as someone mentioned, success is success. I tend to look at the Sean Payton story badtotheflexbone portrayed here in a different light than I believe it was intended (I could be wrong) I think many like to bring it up as a "look, big time NFL coach was baffled by youth coach running single wing" when in reality, the story is one of a guy who had zero experience in the setting he was in was able through intelligence, organization, and coaching skill (not necessarily schematic knowledge) have success with a team. Successful smart people can be successful in many environments. I maintain that people like Bill Parcells, Sean Payton, Bill Belichick, Bill Cowher, Bill Walsh..(damn, I never realized how many big time coaches are named Bill!) would be successful running a fortune 500 company, a local McDonald's franchise, a non profit law center..etc. |
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Post by carookie on Nov 11, 2019 0:17:18 GMT -6
Not a question of intelligence just a completely different set of problems to solve. When you’re use to being able to say “put the back up in” instead of “ okay put Tommy at guard move Fred from FB to TE and throw the extra OL jersey on your TE” cause he’s also your back up OT. Or as I struggled with in my 20+ years of coaching for the first time this year how do you run a team D period with 18 players when your opponent runs DWDTE with wing motion every play and all kinds of pullers. Just saying it’s a different animal and if you aren’t use to it or experienced in it, it will rock your world real quick. Definitely different. But as someone mentioned, success is success. I tend to look at the Sean Payton story badtotheflexbone portrayed here in a different light than I believe it was intended (I could be wrong) I think many like to bring it up as a "look, big time NFL coach was baffled by youth coach running single wing" when in reality, the story is one of a guy who had zero experience in the setting he was in was able through intelligence, organization, and coaching skill (not necessarily schematic knowledge) have success with a team. Successful smart people can be successful in many environments. I maintain that people like Bill Parcells, Sean Payton, Bill Belichick, Bill Cowher, Bill Walsh..(damn, I never realized how many big time coaches are named Bill!) would be successful running a fortune 500 company, a local McDonald's franchise, a non profit law center..etc. This was one of the themes of 'The Bell Curve', although its not PC and society is back lashing against that idea. That being written, I feel as if there is an underlying belief that some HS coaches are successful despite themselves (or at least thanks to no work of their own), rather they inherit talent and thus success. This holds true with the Deion Sanders post too. Truth is, while we like to think of sports as some bastion of equality where we fail or succeed based solely on merit, it doesn't always work out that way. Some of us just luck out and get good gigs, connections, etc. which land us jobs that get us wins beyond our abilities. Conversely, some very good coaches out there land at spots where, despite their abilities, they lose a lot. |
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Post by somecoach on Nov 15, 2019 21:34:02 GMT -6
To be very honest, it depends on the personality but from what I have seen in my area/ people I have coached with... a lot of sh*tty coaching gets masked by just having the better players. and this goes beyond the sh*tty play calling, i am talking about sh*tty attitude around the kids, sh*tty practice habits... when you have ever coached "with the cards you are dealt" you are forced to become a better teacher/ be more crafty schematically. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2019 10:36:34 GMT -6
Definitely different. But as someone mentioned, success is success. I tend to look at the Sean Payton story badtotheflexbone portrayed here in a different light than I believe it was intended (I could be wrong) I think many like to bring it up as a "look, big time NFL coach was baffled by youth coach running single wing" when in reality, the story is one of a guy who had zero experience in the setting he was in was able through intelligence, organization, and coaching skill (not necessarily schematic knowledge) have success with a team. Successful smart people can be successful in many environments. I maintain that people like Bill Parcells, Sean Payton, Bill Belichick, Bill Cowher, Bill Walsh..(damn, I never realized how many big time coaches are named Bill!) would be successful running a fortune 500 company, a local McDonald's franchise, a non profit law center..etc. This was one of the themes of 'The Bell Curve', although its not PC and society is back lashing against that idea. That being written, I feel as if there is an underlying belief that some HS coaches are successful despite themselves (or at least thanks to no work of their own), rather they inherit talent and thus success. This holds true with the Deion Sanders post too. Truth is, while we like to think of sports as some bastion of equality where we fail or succeed based solely on merit, it doesn't always work out that way. Some of us just luck out and get good gigs, connections, etc. which land us jobs that get us wins beyond our abilities. Conversely, some very good coaches out there land at spots where, despite their abilities, they lose a lot. success has different meanings. Success doesnt mean always mean state championship. Either you can or you cant. Having said that, if a coach ends up in good cycle he can mask his deficiencies for a while. |
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Post by IronmanFootball on Nov 16, 2019 12:21:33 GMT -6
I would like to see some of these guys at power house almost small college like schools go from that to a place that has like 25 players total where you have guys playing 3 ways and no backups. It's all about how much scheme they try to carry, their practice plans, and how intricate things like the kicking game CANT be when you're playing 3-ways. Also coaching staff size and help. Good luck painting your own field, tagging your own film, setting up your own cameras and chit like that. Would love to see them handle half-line for all of team periods. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 16, 2019 12:35:28 GMT -6
I would like to see some of these guys at power house almost small college like schools go from that to a place that has like 25 players total where you have guys playing 3 ways and no backups. It's all about how much scheme they try to carry, their practice plans, and how intricate things like the kicking game CANT be when you're playing 3-ways. Also coaching staff size and help. Good luck painting your own field, tagging your own film, setting up your own cameras and chit like that. Would love to see them handle half-line for all of team periods. Again, why are we assuming they : 1) haven't already been in that situation or 2) aren't clever enough to figure out what to do when the resources differ? |
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Post by blb on Nov 16, 2019 13:02:39 GMT -6
I would like to see some of these guys at power house almost small college like schools go from that to a place that has like 25 players total where you have guys playing 3 ways and no backups. It's all about how much scheme they try to carry, their practice plans, and how intricate things like the kicking game CANT be when you're playing 3-ways. Also coaching staff size and help. Good luck painting your own field, tagging your own film, setting up your own cameras and chit like that. Would love to see them handle half-line for all of team periods. wingtol and IronmanFootball,
I get what your are saying.
But if you don't want to do those things - don't take the job?
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Post by canesfan on Nov 16, 2019 13:05:14 GMT -6
I love coaches at powerhouse schools talking about their problems. We live in two different worlds. Doesn’t make them worse/better but it’s an entirely different type of coaching job.
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Post by wingtol on Nov 17, 2019 8:09:51 GMT -6
It's all about how much scheme they try to carry, their practice plans, and how intricate things like the kicking game CANT be when you're playing 3-ways. Also coaching staff size and help. Good luck painting your own field, tagging your own film, setting up your own cameras and chit like that. Would love to see them handle half-line for all of team periods. wingtol and IronmanFootball ,
I get what your are saying.
But if you don't want to do those things - don't take the job?
It's all a hypothetical situation and guys are just pointing out the differences from a team that has 80-100 guys 11-12 to a 20 man team 9-12. One of those situations where it would be fun to see how they adjust. Just the off field stuff would be fun to see how they adjust. Also not saying they couldn't do it but lets be honest when you are at a huge program with infinite resources it would be culture shock to end up at a small program. Would take lots of time to re-adjust and get into that mind set. I have been coaching for over 20 years, started at the state and national power for awhile then have been at solid small school programs since. Our last two seasons have even thrown me for a loop as a coach! Nothing like trying to practice with 17 guys in pads. Or thinking you have 20 ready to go then 2 are "sick" and another gets hurt in gym so shred that practice plan right on the field... |
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Post by blb on Nov 17, 2019 9:29:47 GMT -6
When I retired from teaching I went from coaching at a school of 1723 students where we had 148 kids 9-12 draw equipment my last year to a school of 477 with 65 players 9-12.
Now the big school was not a "powerhouse" but we did have the school's first (and only) unbeaten regular season and undisputed conference championship and I left with the best winning percentage of any coach there before or since.
There were adjustments to be made - notably length of practices and after school strength training. Also going from an air-conditioned ~2400 square foot weight room to one that would've made a nice walk-in closet.
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Post by IronmanFootball on Nov 17, 2019 11:38:33 GMT -6
wingtol and IronmanFootball ,
I get what your are saying.
But if you don't want to do those things - don't take the job?
It's all a hypothetical situation and guys are just pointing out the differences from a team that has 80-100 guys 11-12 to a 20 man team 9-12. One of those situations where it would be fun to see how they adjust. Just the off field stuff would be fun to see how they adjust. Also not saying they couldn't do it but lets be honest when you are at a huge program with infinite resources it would be culture shock to end up at a small program. Would take lots of time to re-adjust and get into that mind set. I have been coaching for over 20 years, started at the state and national power for awhile then have been at solid small school programs since. Our last two seasons have even thrown me for a loop as a coach! Nothing like trying to practice with 17 guys in pads. Or thinking you have 20 ready to go then 2 are "sick" and another gets hurt in gym so shred that practice plan right on the field... Not saying they can't, just saying I would love to be a fly on the wall. |
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Post by CanyonCoach on Nov 17, 2019 16:06:26 GMT -6
We get to play a team that has been built from the ground up basically by one coaching staff. Play-off team every year since 2007, 3 state championships and 4 runner-ups in that time period. They have only missed the play-off twice since 2000. They have had the same OC/DC and HC that entire time. Most importantly they are an absolute class act in every aspect. We lost 27-21. Gave them a solid scare. First game I have ever been in that I truly believe that we didn't loose we just ran out of time. They just won the title. I did a bit of research. This is year 30 of the HC and DC being together. They went through some struggles along the way, several 1 and 2 win seasons, they still practice right next to a dog park on a recovered dumpsite. |
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CoachC
Freshmen Member
Posts: 56
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Post by CoachC on Nov 18, 2019 9:51:05 GMT -6
I listened to the opening of an offensive clinic talk once from a coach in south FL. He began by saying that if teams played off his WRs he was going to throw it quick and let his kids run right by them. If they played press, his kids would run right by them and they'd throw it deep. I don't have kids that just out-athlete everyone I play, so that was when I walked out looking for something more educational.
On another note, a very successful, multi-state champion coach was asked one time about coaching at smaller schools with less talent and he said he just wouldn't take those jobs. Wins a lot with great talent... Not quite as much at a smaller school when he was starting out. Got a good job at a big school, won a bunch and made a name for himself.
There are a lot of good coaches that really can make chicken salad, but athletes and resources certainly help. :-)
As others have said, it's a completely different world. Each with it's own set of problems.
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