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Post by airraider on Aug 27, 2019 19:55:37 GMT -6
I have 28... of those I have 2 seventh and 2 eighth graders... good bit of 9th and 10th graders too.. I would be over the moon to have nearly 50 kids in my high school program. Suck it up and pull the ones up who are willing and ball out.
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Post by 53 on Aug 27, 2019 20:02:04 GMT -6
If you can't practice-prepare properly to compete,
and you are playing kids out of position (as in your last post) just to try to field a "team" -
What do you think is the right thing to do?
Also - at least some of your kids obviously care more about other things ("vaping") than they do about playing football-your team or program.
Cancel the season.
Start again next year after you've had a full Off-Season to try to build relationships and a stable program.
In some associations, there may be stiff penalties for sinpky cancelling a season. Just something to consider Yeah, it's common here to have contracts with a stiff monetary penalty for canceling a game. Between 5,000 and 10,000 dollars
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 27, 2019 22:00:05 GMT -6
In some associations, there may be stiff penalties for sinpky cancelling a season. Just something to consider Yeah, it's common here to have contracts with a stiff monetary penalty for canceling a game. Between 5,000 and 10,000 dollars Not just that but not being able to re enter the association for a year or two
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Post by blb on Aug 28, 2019 5:02:36 GMT -6
In some associations, there may be stiff penalties for sinpky cancelling a season. Just something to consider Yeah, it's common here to have contracts with a stiff monetary penalty for canceling a game. Between 5,000 and 10,000 dollars
So the state association will try to force you to put a team on the field with kids that aren't ready-are in positions they shouldn't be playing, i.e. unsafe?
That's insane.
Glad our state association doesn't do that.
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Post by pitt1980 on Aug 28, 2019 15:53:20 GMT -6
Are you a member of a teacher’s union?
If so, you should raise the issue of exactly what liability you’re taking on is, and figuring out exactly what the policy is on that.
My total speculation is that there should probably be a team trainer to take that judgment off your lap,
Ie, if the trainer says they can’t go, you can’t put them in without assuming liability (and that’s obviously something you shouldn’t do), and if a trainer hasn’t told you they can’t go, you should be able to play them without a personal liability issue.
Either way you should get exactly your situation clarified, probably by someone other than the school lawyer.
The school should probably have purchased some sort of liability insurance, you should probably have either a union rep, or maybe a lawyer you hire clarifying exactly what your coverage is under such a policy.
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Post by veerwego on Sept 3, 2019 11:39:55 GMT -6
We are a school of nearly 1800, have 58 players, 0-2. Both games 49-7. Maybe have a shot this week, but after that have 6 of 7 against much better teams. Our conference has been rated top 10 in the country. The team that beat us Friday is our rival that did so with 3 of our players as their best players, and 2 more from other schools.
Starting 2 freshmen and 2 sophomore OLs that are gonna be good, but should not be playing varsity football against the folks we are playing. We got manhandled a bit by our first opponent. It was not pretty. Have some concerned parents. We just don't have many big kids. Have 8 OLs and maybe 9 DLs. Realistically, about 12 of those kids have any business playing the last couple of teams and most of them should not be playing against our upcoming opponents. I hadn't thought of the liability issue, but glad you raised the point and will be speaking with close family member that is an excellent attorney.
I have already briefed our AD that we are a few injuries away from shutting it down. We have already warned our region opponents of this last winter. We have $10,000 buyouts but not sure they would force us to pay if we just didn't play the games due to legit safety concerns. They are all great about playing their backups early and playing their JV team against us in the 2nd half (since we do not have enough for a JV team). But they also are way bigger and stronger than us and send many lineman to colleges, so it is not a good situation. Feel your pain.
The question I keep coming to is how do you determine in a game where everyone playing is at risk for injury, including severe injury, when you have reached a point where kids are more at risk than they would be in a normal football game situation?
My freshman LG mom's said it like this, I know that my son is big and strong for his age, but he is going to be playing against kids 3-4 years older than him that our much stronger but also have more skill and development of how to play the game well. She is right. Not sure what to do. Thought about forfeiting a second half last year when we were down 3 starting OLs, and it was out of hand, but we made it through. Bad spot to be in for sure.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2019 20:27:55 GMT -6
Yeah, it's common here to have contracts with a stiff monetary penalty for canceling a game. Between 5,000 and 10,000 dollars
So the state association will try to force you to put a team on the field with kids that aren't ready-are in positions they shouldn't be playing, i.e. unsafe?
That's insane.
Glad our state association doesn't do that.
53 and I play under the same state association. A few years ago there was a small school in my area that limped through a 1-9 season. They were discussing canceling the season due to lack of numbers, but eventually got up to about 20 players (grades 9-12) to start the season and finished with 18. However, they played in a 4 team conference and our state’s association says that the top 4 teams in each conference make the playoffs. They were set to go on the road to take on the #1 team in their classification in the first round. They were a 40+ point underdog. 2/3 of the players on that team quit. Their season was done. They handed in their gear and said they didn’t want to make a 3 hour bus ride just to get killed in a playoff game they didn’t earn. The coaches could not talk enough of them into coming back to play the game. They had to forfeit. Our state association heavily fined the school and banned that program from the postseason for 2 years. Originally, they were going to ban them from the postseason in all sports, including girls’ sports and teams that didn’t have a single football player on the roster, but the school got them to change their minds on appeal... barely. The one thing our state association demands above all else is gate money.
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Post by hsrose on Sept 11, 2019 7:33:12 GMT -6
So we haven't called it. If we can get through the game Friday we should be able to survive the season as we get 3 kids eligible with their number of practices and 3 kids coming back from their 3-week suspension for vaping. But, we have to get through this week.
Dressed 16 for the game last Saturday. Had no injuries, won 33-8 over a team that dressed 19 but had several players on the tail end of the flu, including their QB. But we got through it and got the W. As hard as it is ti imagine, our core 8 guys were better than their core 8 guys.
Had those same 16 set for this week, a tougher opponent. But Monday a kid slips on the field and pulls a groin muscle and is out until next week. That gives us 15 going into the game. Got a kid that has had a bad shoulder. Made it through the game, the weekend, no problems, and then tweaks it in PE class lifting weights. Can't get his arm above his head, much less lift anything. He misses Monday, is there yesterday. Another kid has a bum shoulder, strain suffered in the game. Didn't tell us about it and aggravated it hitting the sled on Monday. He's playing but slightly damaged. The kicker turned corner twisted his ankle on Sunday playing soccer. 3 weeks ago after the 1st game we lost a kid to a knee he hurt playing soccer after the game. Last week the JV lost a player to a fractured ankle he got at some wrestling practice he an his brother went to. Got a team captain back from an ankle sprain he got before game 1 which was nice, but he then proceeded to twist his knee a bit in the game last Saturday. So while we have 15 that will dress, 4 are damaged going in. Told the AD that if we lose another player before game we will forfeit, I'm not going into a game with 14. I see some schools have set a minimum number of 17, which I am thinking of setting something like that for next year.
The biggest issue, now that it seems the season will be viable with 22 players on the roster, is that we coaches don't know how to coach with 14, 15, 16 kids at practice. All the drills and such we have are based on having more players for reads and setups and such. When that is not viable we have had a tough time figuring out what to do. And with the numbers we sure aren't hitting very much. Doesn't seem to bother the kids during the games, they have been hitting well, not backing down from anyone. But running a regular practice has not really been feasible. That's been the hardest part of this, not feeling like we've prepared the kids because we haven't been doing what we have always been doing. This new world order is a bugger to figure out. And yes, we have been working with the JV, just can't practice with them all the time every day.
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Post by drmackey on Sept 11, 2019 12:12:22 GMT -6
We had a team not too far from here(North Texas) cancel/forfeit the last 3 or 4 games of the season last year. I think they were down to 14 players because of injury. The next school board meeting the Head Football coach was fired.
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Post by hsrose on Sept 15, 2019 18:52:05 GMT -6
We played last Friday, lost 21-3. Dressed 16, but during warmups one of the players was not moving well. Seems he didn't quite tell the Dr. the truth when he was getting cleared for a groin pull. So we played with 15. We were ahead 3-0 with 8 minutes left in the 2nd. Got the ball on our 8 and drove to their 16, 2:30 left. Ran a lead and the back just never clamped on the ball, scoop and run it back to our 20. Score 2 plays later. So instead of being up 10-0 at the half and getting the ball to start the 2nd, we are down 7-3 and it's all different. They scored in the 3rd on a good pass, and then a 72-yard TD sweep late in the 4th.
Good game, kids never gave up. Gave up 5 sacks. Kid that fumbled the ball wants us to pass more. Also said he was done playing football in the 4th because he fumbled the ball, gave up the pop pass for the TD, dropped 2 passes that hit his hands. He fumbled last game as well and gave up a TD on a pop pass. He's a safety that can't read the TE.
End of the game, we try a pass. Soph QB gets sacked, hard. :43 left and the refs look at me, i look at them, we nod, they take their time spotting the ball, game over. After the game the grandfather of the best player on the team is yelling & cursing at a reporter about the end of the game, we should not have taken a knee (we didn't, they just didn't spot it), F-this, F-that, coaches suck. Very loud and ugly. Saturday the word at the youth games is that the dad is making his son, the best player, quit because 'all the coaches are doing is teaching the kids how to lose.' Dad has never talked with me about anything. He's been on the sidelines taking pictures for the local paper so he's been around the sidelines. The player has now called for a meeting tomorrow before school with the players.
I let the AD know what I thought was going on and she said that if a player quits a team in season they are blocked from competing for 1 week. 3 of my kids got suspended from school for 3 days and blocked from practice and games (anything non-academic) for 3 weeks for vaping.
So now it looks like the best player on the team will be leaving because of his dad.
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Post by coachklee on Sept 15, 2019 23:17:19 GMT -6
So the state association will try to force you to put a team on the field with kids that aren't ready-are in positions they shouldn't be playing, i.e. unsafe?
That's insane.
Glad our state association doesn't do that.
53 and I play under the same state association. A few years ago there was a small school in my area that limped through a 1-9 season. They were discussing canceling the season due to lack of numbers, but eventually got up to about 20 players (grades 9-12) to start the season and finished with 18. However, they played in a 4 team conference and our state’s association says that the top 4 teams in each conference make the playoffs. They were set to go on the road to take on the #1 team in their classification in the first round. They were a 40+ point underdog. 2/3 of the players on that team quit. Their season was done. They handed in their gear and said they didn’t want to make a 3 hour bus ride just to get killed in a playoff game they didn’t earn. The coaches could not talk enough of them into coming back to play the game. They had to forfeit. Our state association heavily fined the school and banned that program from the postseason for 2 years. Originally, they were going to ban them from the postseason in all sports, including girls’ sports and teams that didn’t have a single football player on the roster, but the school got them to change their minds on appeal... barely. The one thing our state association demands above all else is gate money. Retarded...and that is the CORRECT word.
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Post by 54695469 on Sept 16, 2019 13:34:29 GMT -6
Never. Never shut it down. Scrape by the best that you can...but never shut it down. I've been there with only 13 players in our program. Took years but we turned it around. Do not quit. Hell, I thought, "sue my ass... I didn't get into coaching to fricking quit a season!"
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Post by blb on Sept 16, 2019 14:06:20 GMT -6
Never. Never shut it down. Scrape by the best that you can...but never shut it down. I've been there with only 13 players in our program. Took years but we turned it around. Do not quit. Hell, I thought, "sue my ass... I didn't get into coaching to fricking quit a season!"
Perhaps you could tell us then a) how you got down to 13 players in your program,
b) how you turned it around, and
c) how you got administration to give you "years" to do so?
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Post by 54695469 on Sept 16, 2019 14:25:10 GMT -6
I inherited a program with 13 kids. In other words, I took a job at a program that was down (I didn't realize how far down, though). We lost five games in a row by over 50 points, but we finished year one with around 20 kids. (In year one, we had a game in which we were getting blown out by 60... The referee asked if we wanted to end the game at the end of the third quarter..and as bad as I wanted to, we didn't. We finished. I look back now and that was critical! If we'd given up then we'd have never made it) We began a youth program. We coordinated out little league programs in all sports. We unified the boys and girls programs as far as what we were doing in the weight room and off-season. I was fortunate to have great assistants. We battled and recruited from within the school, we held camps that were fun and that young kids wanted to attend, we did anything and everything that we could to make the program attractive. We preached multi-sport participation. It took years. We went 36-6 over years 9,10 and 11... we lost the state championship game in year 10 by three points in the final minute. We won the state championship in year 11.
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Post by blb on Sept 16, 2019 14:29:04 GMT -6
I inherited a program with 13 kids. In other words, I took a job at a program that was down (I didn't realize how far down, though). We lost five games in a row by over 50 points, but we finished year one with around 20 kids. (In year one, we had a game in which we were getting blown out by 60... The referee asked if we wanted to end the game at the end of the third quarter..and as bad as I wanted to, we didn't. We finished. I look back now and that was critical! If we'd given up then we'd have never made it) We began a youth program. We coordinated out little league programs in all sports. We unified the boys and girls programs as far as what we were doing in the weight room and off-season. I was fortunate to have great assistants. We battled and recruited from within the school, we held camps that were fun and that young kids wanted to attend, we did anything and everything that we could to make the program attractive. We preached multi-sport participation. It took years. We went 36-6 over years 9,10 and 11... We won the state championship in year 11.
That is amazing, congratulations.
Where do you coach?
You should write a book if you haven't, would probably help a lot of coaches.
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Post by coachcb on Sept 16, 2019 14:32:14 GMT -6
I guess you "signed on" for THIS SEASON! Haven't your kids "sacrificed to get ready, and aren't they looking to YOU for guidance (put THEM first)? Eliminate all the self-pity & finish THIS season. If you want to hang it up, do so THEN! I don't think he is talking about hanging up his whistle because he is no longer interested in coaching? He is saying, at what point do you say it is not in the best interest of all involved to field a Varsity football team this season. Sure, ideally this is something that would be done in the offseason, not in Mid August, but at this point @hsrose is asking for input on how to determine if it is safe for the kids to play.
That is what I am getting from the post as well. Trying to effectively run a program and avoid kids getting hurt when numbers are down is difficult. We have 29 guys on the roster right now which is basically on par with the rest of the conference. With that being said, we're extremely sophomore and freshman heavy; they make up over half of our roster. We're very careful about match-ups when we practice plan but I still cringe at times.
On Friday night, we were pummeling a team 39-6 and started subbing in our freshmen and sophs but they left their starters in (they had 45 kids on their roster). I took some crap as I ended up pulling over half of our younger guys in a hurry. I watched as their 230lb OL flat-backed our smaller, younger guys on offense and defense. People backed off when I explained that it had nothing to do with the score; I didn't want kids getting hurt.
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Post by 54695469 on Sept 16, 2019 21:21:21 GMT -6
I inherited a program with 13 kids. In other words, I took a job at a program that was down (I didn't realize how far down, though). We lost five games in a row by over 50 points, but we finished year one with around 20 kids. (In year one, we had a game in which we were getting blown out by 60... The referee asked if we wanted to end the game at the end of the third quarter..and as bad as I wanted to, we didn't. We finished. I look back now and that was critical! If we'd given up then we'd have never made it) We began a youth program. We coordinated out little league programs in all sports. We unified the boys and girls programs as far as what we were doing in the weight room and off-season. I was fortunate to have great assistants. We battled and recruited from within the school, we held camps that were fun and that young kids wanted to attend, we did anything and everything that we could to make the program attractive. We preached multi-sport participation. It took years. We went 36-6 over years 9,10 and 11... We won the state championship in year 11.
That is amazing, congratulations.
Where do you coach?
You should write a book if you haven't, would probably help a lot of coaches.
Thanks. I hope that you're not being a smarta--. I only went into that story because someone asked...and it's all true. Left that school after eleven years and had two other jobs that didn't work out quite as well. Had fun and some good years, but I'm done now. Got some land, a tractor and some chickens and I guess you could say that I called it a day.
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Post by hsrose on Sept 17, 2019 10:56:54 GMT -6
Annddd... I'm out of here. The player that quit, his father went to the board last night, blasted me, school didn't tell me he would be there, so this morning I have been given the opportunity to resign. So I have submitted my resignation letter, am packing up, and heading out the door.
Not sure what my activity will be on the board for a time, trying to get things worked out and such.
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Post by blb on Sept 17, 2019 11:39:47 GMT -6
Annddd... I'm out of here. The player that quit, his father went to the board last night, blasted me, school didn't tell me he would be there, so this morning I have been given the opportunity to resign. So I have submitted my resignation letter, am packing up, and heading out the door. Not sure what my activity will be on the board for a time, trying to get things worked out and such.
hsrose
Good luck, coach. In long run may be best thing that ever happened to you.
Speaking from experience.
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Post by coachcb on Sept 17, 2019 12:15:56 GMT -6
@hsrose I agree with blb : this will be for the best in the end. You'd just be pushing water uphill the rest of the season.
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Post by 54695469 on Sept 17, 2019 12:41:51 GMT -6
Very sorry to hear this! On the bright side, you now have the opportunity to get the hell out of California!
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Post by hsrose on Sept 19, 2019 20:15:35 GMT -6
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Post by coachklee on Sept 19, 2019 20:29:41 GMT -6
So that is dumb... An AD lets the emotional words of a 17 year old enabled by an emotional parent dictate policy. Anytime admin lets teenagers make decisions it is time to go. Dumbest part is you were still competing as a 3-21 loss doesn’t quite count as an ass kicking IMO considering the circumstances. Simple choice...hope the best for you going forward coach. blb is right...all admin has 1 of 2 priorities...at best keep their current job or much more often move up to their next job!
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Post by coachcb on Sept 20, 2019 7:02:15 GMT -6
unfortunately, your situation is becoming more common in our profession. There is a successful softball coach (two losses in two season, two state titles) who was forced out after a someone went straight to the school board. The coach in question is stern and gets after his players but his behavior has ever approached the realm of "misconduct". It turned into a media circus and he had other parents and players coming out in droves to support him but he was let go, nonetheless.
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Post by hsrose on Oct 8, 2019 10:23:30 GMT -6
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Post by carookie on Oct 8, 2019 12:31:38 GMT -6
My man let me tell you, if player safety was your concern then you did the right thing How different is it than a running clock?
Moreover, a lot of people (parents) don't understand that when you coach a team with a barely able to survive roster then a lot of discipline goes out the window (as stated in the article). We all have hills we are wanting to die on- some dictate you miss practice you sit out a half. But how do you do that when you only have +1 on your roster and you get a kid who gets hurt? Its not feasible.
Problem is, much of the public assumes that football is football, you know they see something on TV and assume it must be what is best for HS kids. Along those lines they see big 50+ player school institute player discipline for missing practice and wonder why you don't do the same, failing to realize that often times our situations dictate our response far more than we want.
Best of luck to you sir, don't hang your head.
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Post by coachcb on Oct 8, 2019 14:47:21 GMT -6
People don't stop to think about the potential disaster of calling a couple of plays in that situation. What if a kid had actually gotten hurt? Now the coach is responsible for an unnecessary injury; he is liable for it as well. That parent's tune would've changed in a hurry if HIS kid had suffered a broken leg because the coach decided not to take a knee.
We were down 22-8 and had the ball with 12 seconds to go in the 4th last weekend. Of course we opted to go for a knee! We had a gaggle of parents p-ssed hollering about it from the stands but the administration put it down, thankfully. What was going to be accomplished if we chucked it up and scored? a 22-14 loss with someone potentially getting injured..
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Post by hsrose on Oct 21, 2019 22:08:45 GMT -6
It just keeps getting worse for my former team. The interim HC was able to get 4-5 new players after I left, he knows everybody, knows every family. Got the kids to come out. Added 2 coaches who had told me, to my face, that they could not coach because of jobs and such. So he was sitting there with a +4 (at least) on varsity players (I hear a couple more on JV) on top of the 6 that were going to be cleared to play the week I left. I figure 26 kids. 25 kids on JV. Things are looking up. I'm feeling that it was actually a good thing that I left, things are rounding into good shape for them. They may not win much but they've got numbers and can play better than what I could manage.
The team has played 5 games since my departure. So far they have scored 40 and given up 196 in those 5 games. 3 straight shutouts. They have 2 games left and might not score a point offensively. The JV has done about the same, 3 shutouts in those 5 games, no victories.
Tonight my wife asks me if the JV have folded, she's seeing things on Facebook by the Boosters. I check around. Yep, the JV has folded. Had 14 kids for the last game and 1 got hurt. JV injuries include 4 concussions, broken hand, a hip (bone) injury, a hip (muscle) injury, suspended for inappropriate behavior to a teacher, suspended for disciplinary reasons, 4 players lost to grades, 4 broken collarbones. That's on top of the broken ankle (at wrestling practice) and a shoulder when I was there. Apparently 2 of the JV concussions were during M-W of last week. 1 was while going against the varsity. When they folded the JV 4 players came up to varsity. I would figure that would put them near 30. But no, seems that even with the 4 JV players coming up they will suit 20 players this week. One of the guys I'm talking with says that the coaches were "advised" of alternate tackling styles because of the rash of collar bone fractures. Something about head to the opponent's stomach....
I'm not saying my W/L record would have been different, or the injuries would have been less, but not in my widest nightmares did I see this coming.
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Post by larrymoe on Oct 22, 2019 8:25:28 GMT -6
So that is dumb... An AD lets the emotional words of a 17 year old enabled by an emotional parent dictate policy. Anytime admin lets teenagers make decisions it is time to go. Dumbest part is you were still competing as a 3-21 loss doesn’t quite count as an ass kicking IMO considering the circumstances. Simple choice...hope the best for you going forward coach. blb is right...all admin has 1 of 2 priorities...at best keep their current job or much more often move up to their next job! Perhaps you missed where the AD's name is Cathy.
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Post by vicvinegar on Oct 22, 2019 9:17:54 GMT -6
I'm sitting here right now with 18 bodies on varsity. 29 on JV. And I have tried to bring up JV to play but either the kid or parents refuse to come up, and I cannot force them to come up. I have 2 Sophs on varsity right now, both are likely to start both ways and special teams. Maybe someone else covered this, I'll be honest I haven't read all of the responses. You are not the first Coach to make statements like this, but I'm always so confused by this. EVERY program that I know of in the state I coach in, there is a Varsity team. Then whoever doesn't play on Friday night, plays in the JV game. This goes for every program as far as I know. The only exception is with the large schools who have 90-100 kids, and only a few of them practice completely separate. For most of those programs, the JV kids are used as scout players. If a program only has 20 players, they cancel their JV schedule. You don't have 18 Varsity and 29 JV... You have 47 players. I realize that a most Freshmen & a handful of Sophomores may not be physically ready to play, however every program I have been involved in (good & bad) we have started Sophomores and occasionally a freshmen or two have seen playing time. If they don't want to play, see ya!
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