Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2019 6:30:22 GMT -6
I coach in a very small rural/farm town. I've been around our football programs (Pop Warner, Middle School and High School) since 1997. In that span, I've seen an overall drop in numbers at every level. I think most programs are seeing something very similar as well, or at least many of the local ones I see around us are also experiecing this. My question is, what are we, as coaches, doing about preserving this great game? The concussion scare is a major factor to blame for this, but I also feel there are some social factors chipping away at the fabric of football as well. What are you doing, to combat a drop in numbers? If you had access to all levels of a town's football programs (youth, junior high to high school), what would you do to combat a drop in participation? I have some ideas, but would love to hear others.
Duece
|
|
|
|
Post by rsmith627 on Jun 3, 2019 6:40:15 GMT -6
This is an interesting topic.
Background on the program I am in: We are one of the larger schools in the state (I believe top 5 enrollment wise). Have won 3 state titles in the past 6 seasons, and were a play away from winning the 4th one last season in the state finals. We do have access to our entire program from the youth level all the way up.
We try to be present at youth events. We do things out in the community (charity, attending other events, etc.). IMO we aren't doing enough with our youth program. We put on a camp for those kids in the summer where we coach them along with some varsity players. The kids love the experience. Our youth numbers are actually ok. Where we are seeing a decline is at our level here in the high school.
This can be attributed to a few factors. People in our county need to stop using birth control. Our population has been dropping off some. Kids just don't seem as interested in sports and physical activity. We haven't actually had the concussion scare come up too often as an objection.
Currently we have our kids help in getting more kids to come up. Your players are your best recruiters.
Would love to hear some other thoughts as well.
|
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Jun 3, 2019 7:47:14 GMT -6
I coach in a very small rural/farm town. I've been around our football programs (Pop Warner, Middle School and High School) since 1997. In that span, I've seen an overall drop in numbers at every level. I think most programs are seeing something very similar as well, or at least many of the local ones I see around us are also experiecing this. My question is, what are we, as coaches, doing about preserving this great game? The concussion scare is a major factor to blame for this, but I also feel there are some social factors chipping away at the fabric of football as well. What are you doing, to combat a drop in numbers? If you had access to all levels of a town's football programs (youth, junior high to high school), what would you do to combat a drop in participation? I have some ideas, but would love to hear others. Duece Is it a drop in just football? Are you seeing declines in other sports as well? Part of the problem may be that in the pursuit of glory, parents/adults have taken leisure activities and turned them into work. I do think those who say "there is nothing to worry about, the NFL is so popular..." are missing football's shift from participatory sport to spectator. It is becoming almost gladiatorial in nature. Something to watch, not something to do, like Boxing. I would be interested to see the declining participation in youth football when flag football is factored into the numbers. That said, I do think one important step is trying to figure out why it is "great"? I realize that might be sacrilegious here, but in all honesty, what makes footbal l"great". I enjoy it, played it for years, coached teams ranging from 8 years old up to Div 1 football. But I would be hard pressed to say that tackle football provides ________ which can't be experienced or gained through other means. Maybe it would be beneficial to start there, and focus on spreading the word about those attributes? |
|
|
|
Post by MICoach on Jun 3, 2019 8:30:58 GMT -6
I coach in a very small rural/farm town. I've been around our football programs (Pop Warner, Middle School and High School) since 1997. In that span, I've seen an overall drop in numbers at every level. I think most programs are seeing something very similar as well, or at least many of the local ones I see around us are also experiecing this. My question is, what are we, as coaches, doing about preserving this great game? The concussion scare is a major factor to blame for this, but I also feel there are some social factors chipping away at the fabric of football as well. What are you doing, to combat a drop in numbers? If you had access to all levels of a town's football programs (youth, junior high to high school), what would you do to combat a drop in participation? I have some ideas, but would love to hear others. Duece Is it a drop in just football? Are you seeing declines in other sports as well? Part of the problem may be that in the pursuit of glory, parents/adults have taken leisure activities and turned them into work. I do think those who say "there is nothing to worry about, the NFL is so popular..." are missing football's shift from participatory sport to spectator. It is becoming almost gladiatorial in nature. Something to watch, not something to do, like Boxing. I would be interested to see the declining participation in youth football when flag football is factored into the numbers. That said, I do think one important step is trying to figure out why it is "great"? I realize that might be sacrilegious here, but in all honesty, what makes footbal l"great". I enjoy it, played it for years, coached teams ranging from 8 years old up to Div 1 football. But I would be hard pressed to say that tackle football provides ________ which can't be experienced or gained through other means. Maybe it would be beneficial to start there, and focus on spreading the word about those attributes? I'd be curious to see growth/decline numbers on other sports as well. One thought that came up for me was that part of the decline in football numbers may be due to increases in other sports and/or increases in single sport athletes. The school I coached at before my current one has had slowly rising numbers for several years. A couple reasons for that come to mind. Having something resembling a unified program from the youth flag football leagues all the way up to the high school is a big deal - we do one or two program wide events/fundraisers and also have our varsity players volunteer at the youth games and in the elementary schools and stuff. High school coaches try to stay present at middle school stuff whenever they can too. Another potential reason is a school-wide push for multi-sport athletes. The football and wrestling coaches in particular are big on encouraging their players to participate in other sports (probably because they're two that suffer the most from kids quitting to just play baseball or basketball or lacrosse or whatever). Third and smaller thing that I think makes a difference is having a platooned staff where all of our coaches coach freshmen through seniors in some capacity. I think there are a lot of positives to this but one of them is making the younger kids feel invested in the program from freshman year on. |
|
|
|
Post by bobgoodman on Jun 3, 2019 11:24:53 GMT -6
I coach in a very small rural/farm town. I've been around our football programs (Pop Warner, Middle School and High School) since 1997. In that span, I've seen an overall drop in numbers at every level. I think most programs are seeing something very similar as well, or at least many of the local ones I see around us are also experiecing this. My question is, what are we, as coaches, doing about preserving this great game? The concussion scare is a major factor to blame for this, but I also feel there are some social factors chipping away at the fabric of football as well. What are you doing, to combat a drop in numbers? If you had access to all levels of a town's football programs (youth, junior high to high school), what would you do to combat a drop in participation? I have some ideas, but would love to hear others. Duece Is it a drop in just football? Are you seeing declines in other sports as well? Part of the problem may be that in the pursuit of glory, parents/adults have taken leisure activities and turned them into work. I'm very interested in that question too. But...it always was that. Practically from day 1, American football's always had far more spectators than participants -- not at every game, but in aggregate. As a participant sport, it was always a minority taste, except in some cases among children when they organized their own games. The people who watched intercollegiate games from 1876 on, if they themselves played football at all, nearly all played a different kind of football from the one they were watching, and by 1890 the kind they were playing themselves (unless they were Irish immigrants) was soccer. When touch football developed, they played that, and many children who would not have played tackle played touch. You'd think that, like most sports, American football started as a mass participation thing, but it didn't. I was surprised to read that the very first extramural football game in which a University of Michigan team played drew a crowd in anticipation. Apparently people had heard and read about this game's having been played out east for a while, and they were eager to see it. You might've thought some of the same people would've thought to get up a game themselves, but, no, it was a novelty. Of course it does need a participant base. We don't have robo-football yet. And I have gone to many games where the participants outnumbered the spectators, or were in comparable numbers -- amateur football games played by children, women, or men not associated with an academic institution. But the ratio of spectators to participants for football in ay adults ggregate was always very high. It's not like rugby in North America, where after American and Canadian football developed, rugby remained a minority taste among participants but didn't draw crowds (because American and Canadian football did). American football is like rugby in America with the addition of large numbers of spectators, plus popularity among child participants. And the continuation of rugby as such by adults in America is proof that even without spectators and without youth, interscholastic, or intercollegiate football, football would continue, so let's not even consider in our nightmares that football would disappear; but it still could use promotion among potential participants. |
|
|
|
Post by canesfan on Jun 3, 2019 11:35:49 GMT -6
Our school is seeing a drop in all sports. That said, the kids that do play in our school are athletic. This past year we were competitive or better in every sport other than softball. I think every other sport may have had at least a winning record.
|
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Jun 3, 2019 16:17:18 GMT -6
I coach in a very small rural/farm town. I've been around our football programs (Pop Warner, Middle School and High School) since 1997. In that span, I've seen an overall drop in numbers at every level. I think most programs are seeing something very similar as well, or at least many of the local ones I see around us are also experiecing this. My question is, what are we, as coaches, doing about preserving this great game? The concussion scare is a major factor to blame for this, but I also feel there are some social factors chipping away at the fabric of football as well. What are you doing, to combat a drop in numbers? If you had access to all levels of a town's football programs (youth, junior high to high school), what would you do to combat a drop in participation? I have some ideas, but would love to hear others. Duece This article also presents some interesting ideas |
|
|
|
Post by 44dlcoach on Jun 3, 2019 22:01:51 GMT -6
My favorite part about football, a big part of what makes it "great" in my opion: There's a place for just about all body types. Obviously some are better than others, but a short fat kid can carve out a role on a football team just as well as a tall skinny kid. Not saying it's the only sport that's "all-inclusive" but you don't see too many short chubby basketball players that can fill a role and contribute to success, just as as example.
|
|
|
|
Post by coachjm on Jun 4, 2019 5:07:00 GMT -6
Although we have good participation rates at all levels right now we are making the decision this year along with a couple other communities in our league to move our 3-6th grade tackles leagues over to flag starting tackling football at 7th grade. Our goal is "for kids to have fun playing the game" and to grow the game to families who may not be comfortable with their young child to play but feel more comfortable as the child gets older. Ultimately, we have no idea how it will roll out as our youth tackle program but I like where we are heading right now...
|
|
|
|
Post by coachcb on Jun 4, 2019 6:59:44 GMT -6
We're seeing a decline in all sports but football is taking a hit over the concussion issue. There's really no combating it, other than pointing out the drastic decrease in concussions we've seen since we've started taking more precautions. We had three concussion last year, we caught them early and the kids were fine.
And, if people really want to get into it, I'll point out that we're seeing about the same number of concussions as most other sports. And, the concussions in football aren't as nasty as those in other sports. Our basketball team had five concussions this year. A kid picks up a concussion in football and they're generally out for a week. A basketball player is concussed and they're banned from looking at any electronic screen for three weeks.
All and all, it's just lip service coming from football coaches. Coaches in other sports and the administration need to step up efforts to promote the sport and the safety protocols we have in place now. I've had it out on social media with many people over this topic and posted links to the multitude of studies showing that there's no connection between playing football at a young age and serious brain trauma. It doesn't do any good; they'll believe whatever the media wants them t believe.
|
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Jun 5, 2019 0:56:11 GMT -6
We're seeing a decline in all sports but football is taking a hit over the concussion issue. There's really no combating it, other than pointing out the drastic decrease in concussions we've seen since we've started taking more precautions. We had three concussion last year, we caught them early and the kids were fine. And, if people really want to get into it, I'll point out that we're seeing about the same number of concussions as most other sports. And, the concussions in football aren't as nasty as those in other sports. Our basketball team had five concussions this year. A kid picks up a concussion in football and they're generally out for a week. A basketball player is concussed and they're banned from looking at any electronic screen for three weeks. All and all, it's just lip service coming from football coaches. Coaches in other sports and the administration need to step up efforts to promote the sport and the safety protocols we have in place now. I've had it out on social media with many people over this topic and posted links to the multitude of studies showing that there's no connection between playing football at a young age and serious brain trauma. It doesn't do any good; they'll believe whatever the media wants them t believe. But keep in mind coach-the most damning and concerning data is that concussions are not the problem It is the repeated sub concussive blows to the head that much of the data says is the real threat, and those don’t exist in as many sports |
|
|
|
Post by coachcb on Jun 5, 2019 7:13:49 GMT -6
We're seeing a decline in all sports but football is taking a hit over the concussion issue. There's really no combating it, other than pointing out the drastic decrease in concussions we've seen since we've started taking more precautions. We had three concussion last year, we caught them early and the kids were fine. And, if people really want to get into it, I'll point out that we're seeing about the same number of concussions as most other sports. And, the concussions in football aren't as nasty as those in other sports. Our basketball team had five concussions this year. A kid picks up a concussion in football and they're generally out for a week. A basketball player is concussed and they're banned from looking at any electronic screen for three weeks. All and all, it's just lip service coming from football coaches. Coaches in other sports and the administration need to step up efforts to promote the sport and the safety protocols we have in place now. I've had it out on social media with many people over this topic and posted links to the multitude of studies showing that there's no connection between playing football at a young age and serious brain trauma. It doesn't do any good; they'll believe whatever the media wants them t believe. But keep in mind coach-the most damning and concerning data is that concussions are not the problem It is the repeated sub concussive blows to the head that much of the data says is the real threat, and those don’t exist in as many sports
Agreed. I just have a retort for those athletes, coaches and parents that state they won't play football/allow their kid to play football because it's more dangerous than other sports. The data does show that there is a higher incident of concussions in football and it makes sense but I do wonder if that is because we pay closer attention those injuries as football coaches. I've watched plenty of high school basketball games where a kid has taken a blow to the head in some manner, they're pulled off of the court for a few minutes and then they're right back in. I think that, statistically, many sports would close that gap a bit if other coaches and officials paid closer attention to concussions. I know they're not taking repeatedly blows to the head but I think that concussions are under reported and diagnosed in other sports.
And, I cite that massive study conducted a few years ago that showed that there was no correlation between playing high school football and incidents of Parkinson's, dementia, mental illness or other symptoms of CTE. It was thorough and well implemented study that should have put some of the CTE scare to bed.
I'm by no means down-playing the seriousness of concussions and their occurrence in football. But, I also don't believe that there's any conclusive studies showing that the sport is any more detrimental to athletes in the long run than others. Especially now that we've become more vigilant in keeping the sport safe and paying attention to signs and symptoms of concussions.
|
|
|
|
Post by geegollywhiz on Jun 5, 2019 9:02:56 GMT -6
At the current of change, pads are coming off in the next 3 years!
|
|
|
|
Post by blb on Jun 5, 2019 9:17:59 GMT -6
At the current of change, pads are coming off in the next 3 years!
Is this your fourth or fifth different screen name?
|
|
|
|
Post by bobgoodman on Jun 5, 2019 9:24:35 GMT -6
At the current of change, pads are coming off in the next 3 years! I wouldn't mind that if it's still tackle. |
|
|
|
Post by CS on Jun 5, 2019 14:49:53 GMT -6
At the current of change, pads are coming off in the next 3 years!
Is this your fourth or fifth different screen name?
I think he realizes after enough people block him he has to change his screen name so he can continue to annoy |
|
|
|
Post by coachcb on Jun 6, 2019 6:54:45 GMT -6
Just keep blocking him.
|
|
|
|
Post by CoachMikeJudy on Jun 6, 2019 8:04:43 GMT -6
I'll just add to the thread: There are two popular sports that are "declining" according to stats- Football and Wrestling. Wrestling (in 2016) participation was at it's lowest since 1970 in some states ( www.missouriwrestling.com/thoughts-on-wrestling/). I don't think it's a coincidence that these two sports are really the only 2 combative sports readily available to our kids (boxing used to be VERY popular but is no longer an option). WHY? This is strictly anecdotal, but I see these two sports as the ONLY sports where it is physically painful to be average/below average. If you wrestle and you stink, the dude is going to fold you up like a pretzel daily...that chit hurts! In football if you stink, you will get blasted/pancaked/run over etc and that hurts! If you take an "L" in basketball you can just talk chit and continue to suck without any physical consequences. Lacrosse has modern rule changes that discourage high levels of collisions at the high school level...it doesn't hurt to be average in these sports. Also no coincidence that these 2 sports have seen an uptick in participation ( blog.nylizards.com/blog/youth-lacrosse-participation, blog.leagueapps.com/baseball-and-basketball-participation-numbers-on-the-rise/) My point is, most humans aren't into pain and they migrate to the sports that keep them from suffering. Kids are leaning toward sports that are "easier" to participate in. Media and our culture are pushing us this direction...with the talks about head injuries, "toxic masculinity" and brutality, respect everyone's safe space etc. |
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Jun 6, 2019 13:03:16 GMT -6
I'll just add to the thread: There are two popular sports that are "declining" according to stats- Football and Wrestling. Wrestling (in 2016) participation was at it's lowest since 1970 in some states ( www.missouriwrestling.com/thoughts-on-wrestling/). I don't think it's a coincidence that these two sports are really the only 2 combative sports readily available to our kids (boxing used to be VERY popular but is no longer an option). WHY? This is strictly anecdotal, but I see these two sports as the ONLY sports where it is physically painful to be average/below average. If you wrestle and you stink, the dude is going to fold you up like a pretzel daily...that chit hurts! In football if you stink, you will get blasted/pancaked/run over etc and that hurts! If you take an "L" in basketball you can just talk chit and continue to suck without any physical consequences. Lacrosse has modern rule changes that discourage high levels of collisions at the high school level...it doesn't hurt to be average in these sports. Also no coincidence that these 2 sports have seen an uptick in participation ( blog.nylizards.com/blog/youth-lacrosse-participation, blog.leagueapps.com/baseball-and-basketball-participation-numbers-on-the-rise/) My point is, most humans aren't into pain and they migrate to the sports that keep them from suffering. Kids are leaning toward sports that are "easier" to participate in. Media and our culture are pushing us this direction...with the talks about head injuries, "toxic masculinity" and brutality, respect everyone's safe space etc. . Very interesting point |
|
|
|
Post by stilltryin on Jun 6, 2019 14:18:21 GMT -6
Is it a drop in just football? Are you seeing declines in other sports as well? Part of the problem may be that in the pursuit of glory, parents/adults have taken leisure activities and turned them into work. I'm very interested in that question too. But...it always was that. Practically from day 1, American football's always had far more spectators than participants -- not at every game, but in aggregate. As a participant sport, it was always a minority taste, except in some cases among children when they organized their own games. The people who watched intercollegiate games from 1876 on, if they themselves played football at all, nearly all played a different kind of football from the one they were watching, and by 1890 the kind they were playing themselves (unless they were Irish immigrants) was soccer. When touch football developed, they played that, and many children who would not have played tackle played touch. You'd think that, like most sports, American football started as a mass participation thing, but it didn't. I was surprised to read that the very first extramural football game in which a University of Michigan team played drew a crowd in anticipation. Apparently people had heard and read about this game's having been played out east for a while, and they were eager to see it. You might've thought some of the same people would've thought to get up a game themselves, but, no, it was a novelty. Of course it does need a participant base. We don't have robo-football yet. And I have gone to many games where the participants outnumbered the spectators, or were in comparable numbers -- amateur football games played by children, women, or men not associated with an academic institution. But the ratio of spectators to participants for football in ay adults ggregate was always very high. It's not like rugby in North America, where after American and Canadian football developed, rugby remained a minority taste among participants but didn't draw crowds (because American and Canadian football did). American football is like rugby in America with the addition of large numbers of spectators, plus popularity among child participants. And the continuation of rugby as such by adults in America is proof that even without spectators and without youth, interscholastic, or intercollegiate football, football would continue, so let's not even consider in our nightmares that football would disappear; but it still could use promotion among potential participants. |
|
|
|
Post by stilltryin on Jun 6, 2019 14:36:20 GMT -6
I'm not sure where this concern about football being a "minority taste" because it has more spectators than participants came from. By that standard, all the major American sports ... baseball, football, basketball, hockey ... are "minority tastes."
According to the last study I saw, the two high school sports seeing the steepest decline in numbers were baseball and softball, especially in those areas (like ours) where lacrosse has become the next cool thing.
Getting back to the original post, I'd say the same thing that makes football unattractive to some kids is what makes it "great." Football is hard. A lot of kids, especially in affluent areas like ours, don't do hard. But we don't run from that fact; we celebrate it, and invite our kids to celebrate the idea of doing hard things together, holding teammates accountable, and being part of something bigger than themselves. If that makes us a "minority taste," hey, we're proud of it.
|
|
|
|
Post by bobgoodman on Jun 6, 2019 19:56:38 GMT -6
I'm not sure where this concern about football being a "minority taste" because it has more spectators than participants came from. By that standard, all the major American sports ... baseball, football, basketball, hockey ... are "minority tastes." No, that's not the measure that makes it a minority taste. It's not that ratio, it's the percentage of participants in a sport out of all sports participants. On the list you gave, in the USA alone, basketball is not a minority taste. Very few people who've played any sport in the USA have not played basketball, and if you looked at the total number of hours they've played, basketball would stand out even more. People even have baskets over their garages. Rinks for ice hockey? Not so many. Tackle football? First of all, hardly any girls. Second, hardly any people still playing as adults. My point is that we should not be misled in terms of its popularity by considering spectators on the same level as participants, and that the poster who said that in the future it'll be overwhelmingly a spectator sport, a "gladiatorial" thing -- that's not news, that's the way it's always been! Therefore a high ratio of spectators to participants is not a threat to the future of football. |
|
klaby
Junior Member
Posts: 389
|
Post by klaby on Jun 7, 2019 10:27:16 GMT -6
|
|
|
|
Post by Coach.A on Jun 7, 2019 16:35:12 GMT -6
Our numbers have increased steadily over the past 3 years while many of the schools around us have seen a decline. Here are some of the things that have worked for us:
1. We put effort in to promoting/marketing our program through social media. I never had any personal social media and was very skeptical of using it for our program, but I am 100% confident that it has helped grow our program. I don't pretend to be an expert in social media, but I think we do a very good job of making our players feel important through our social media platform. We "overhype" every positive thing they do through our Team's social media...for example if a kid hits a big PR in the weight room we will post it. If a kid in our program wins an academic award, we post it, etc. We try to stay very active and in the "media cycle" throughout the entire year. We post almost daily about any and all things related to our program. For example if the new shoulder pads we ordered arrive, we'll do an "unboxing video" and talk about how great our equipment is.
2. We have significantly reduced the amount of time we spend practicing and meeting. We almost never have lunch time Team meetings anymore. Our Monday practices are now just helmets and only 1 hour long and 20 minutes MAX of film. Thursday practices are only about 1.5 hours now. There are other factors at play, but it seems like the less time we spend practicing/meeting, the better we get.
3. We've made a great effort to get parents more involved in our program. Anytime parents have a positive experience, they will sell your program in the community. Tailgating, BBQ's and post game parties are huge for developing this sense of community in your program.
4. We use a bunch of ridiculous props and awards to make the game more fun for our players. Weekly players of the game get very realistic foam weapons for awards (Offensive player of the game = Sword, Defensive player of the game = Battleaxe, Specials = Spear, Hustle = Spiked Mase), We have a pick axe for interceptions, turnover chain, WWE style Championship belt for hardest hit, etc. We had a Team DJ play music at some practices last year. We crank an Air Raid siren after TDs. Admittedly, most of this stuff is ridiculous, but it all comes back to having fun. They're kids and they want to have fun.
There are so many more fun alternatives available for kids these days, so you have to compete to offer a 'more fun' product.
|
|
|
|
Post by IronmanFootball on Jun 12, 2019 7:43:33 GMT -6
Cutting down on the d-baggery is a must. Too many meatheads will cut football off from kids that love the sport but don't want to put icy hot on another dude's balls.
Cut down on the 3 hour practices or 4 hour summer workouts- I don't even want to do that chit so I doubt a 15 year old who might actually have a social life will.
Stop telling kids "back in my day" bc that's a deterrent for everything (just a mini rant on the WHEN I PLAYED coach)
Create a culture of caring and consistency. When you seem like you don't give an eff or are inconsistent that runs people off.
I mostly blame adults. Kids are the same as they always were.
|
|
|
|
Post by larrymoe on Jun 12, 2019 8:11:07 GMT -6
Kids are the same as they always were. Not even close, but to each their own. |
|
|
|
Post by IronmanFootball on Jun 12, 2019 8:55:01 GMT -6
Kids are the same as they always were. Not even close, but to each their own. “The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.” Socrates. |
|
|
|
Post by larrymoe on Jun 12, 2019 8:59:48 GMT -6
You really think kids are the same now as 4,000 years ago, or did you just catch that on Twitter and decided to regurgitate it?
|
|
|
|
Post by bobgoodman on Jun 12, 2019 9:08:20 GMT -6
You really think kids are the same now as 4,000 years ago, I do. It's human nature. Actually it's pre-human, as you can see by watching other animals and their babies. |
|
|
|
Post by larrymoe on Jun 12, 2019 9:18:04 GMT -6
God bless you all. Enjoy.
|
|
