eagleoc
Sophomore Member
Posts: 208
|
Post by eagleoc on Mar 14, 2019 10:20:57 GMT -6
In response to eagleoc , Here is what I agree with you about... Trust. But, with some reservations. Yes, we all want our roster to believe in us as coaches, but they can believe in us without the rah-rah, culture, win one for the gipper speech. However, I am not doing anything different than you are in your program, and in all reality, we are probably doing ALOT less when it comes to all the rah-rah/culture stuff. Example - Yesterday, we installed tags off RPO on offense and another strong & weak blitz on defense, while some of our opponents (who we haven't lost to in 5 years) tweeted out that they were doing some leadership manual, trust falls, and whatever other stuff. We...were doing FOOTBALL! Yes, these opponents will beat us one day, but for now, in March, we are trying to beat them on the field. Have never seen a conference championship/playoff win/gold ball handed out for winning the culture fight. Just finished up year 12 in this business, and I have been 13-1 and I have been 2-8 in my career, and here is the difference I notice... The 13-1 year, yes we had 3 MID-MAJOR FBS kids (and I know that makes a difference), but we did very little when it came to the whole culture thing. We did the same drills, same lifts, same film study everyone does, but devoted our time as coaches to the office and to the players getting better in the weight room and on the field! All the leadership manual/ropes course stuff, we saw as a time that could be spent on something else, ya know like...FOOTBALL! The 2-8 year, and yes, we still had 1 MID-MAJOR FBS kid, we spent more freaking time on culture and leadership manuals than we did studying the game, thus I got my butt out of there. Now... Again, respectfully disagree. My kids can watch the same amount of film, do less sprints, do less squats, less time at the field-house, and not have to hear the word "culture", and still believe they can win. You're down 18-0, and YOUR KID excites the team...Again, has nothing to do with your coaches. I still believe that is kid led. You're telling me that going 0-10/2-8, you don't need to spend more time on X's & O's? Come on now. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to run into Friday night with only IZ, OZ, Counter and one front, one coverage, and one blitz and hope for the best. I am going to give my kids a chance with scheme, if we get beat, ok. But, I am not going to walk off the field saying, "I wish I had more tools in my toolbox." Again, thank you all for the responses. This has been a healthy discussion. I look forward to reading more. Some thoughts, respectfully.
Just finished my 17th year and have spent alot of time trying to emulate some of the good teams I was apart of. I was fortunate enough to play on 3 state championship teams in HS, 1 Runner up and 2 National Champions in College and one runner up.
Our head coaches never used the word culture once, but I can guarantee you they were thinking about it, whether you call it team climate, etc. The culture was how we did things. For example in college our coach was really big on grades and having the best GPA in the conference. I dont think the fact that we were successful off and on the field were unrelated.
I don't believe culture is the rah rah stuff you allude to. Culture is what you do everyday and what is expected in your program. Speeches are not culture. Culture is what you do and believe in. So therefore in your program, it seems, that your culture has a major emphasis on the x's and o's over all else. Nothing good or bad about that.
It sounds like your culture of accountability and kids working and knowing what is expected is already established. It is not at many schools. You saying your kids believing they can win is part of your culture. They expect to win. Once again. This is not everywhere. My first year at our school , we found out later, the seniors joked about how bad a certain team was going to beat them. Guess what they got beat. We focused on competing and trying to learn how to win. Within a few years, we didn't get running clocked and made them play the whole game. That was a step in the right direction for our program and it did not come because we had installed new schemes. It happened because we focused on doing things the right way, hard work, trust, etc.
When we went 2-9, the year after we were 10-3, I strongly believe that it would not have mattered how much we worked on x's and o's. We weren't good, period. We had several kids on the field who we had said if one of them is on the field then we are in trouble. At one point, all 3 were on the field. We had nothing else. What i was worried about is still having the focus be on doing things the right way because i knew that the next year we would be better. I worried about teaching the younger kids and keeping them in the program and excited even though we were not good and it was a long season. The next year we were better and I believe what we did the year before paid off. And though we didn't get a trophy for culture, we did get a district championship trophy the next year. I believe that was because in the bad times we focused on the things I have discussed before.
I don't think kids need to hear the word culture. I don't know if I ever said it to them nor do you need to. Just saying culture means nothing.
Being down 18-0, i agree the kid did get our team going. This was the same kid who our whole staff had worked tirelessly on improving him as a positive leader. He was a good player and kids respected him, but when it hit the fan he crumbled and as an influencer, brought others down. I believe he was able to get the team excited because we had spend time focusing on how he responded to adversity, a focus of ours. This kid would have been on the bench pouting the year before. This was the kids we had and we had to work with what we had to make them better, not just with technique and schematically, but as individuals.
I'm not saying that you neglect the x's and o's. If you do that, you are insane. I just think that you have to make culture or whatever you want to call it a priority and focus on it.
If you can't run your main plays properly, there is no need to add more. If all you can run is 3 plays successfully that is a lot better than 6 run sub par in my opinion.
I think it is important to remember that culture is how you do things. Culture is not a cure all, but neither is a great playbook. You have to get the kids to execute both parts.
I think it also depends on your role. I think HC's need to spend the time thinking about the culture as well as the x's and o's. AC's should be more focused on x's and o's. Just my 2 cents. Good discussion.
|
|
|
Post by Coach Huey on Mar 14, 2019 10:26:28 GMT -6
can you win without the best proverbial "culture" (i.e. having a good atmosphere in your program)? answer is yes
can you win without having the best players on the field (most talented)? answer is yes
can you win without having the best x's & o's on the field? answer is yes.
can you win CONSISTENTLY and CONSISTENTLY BIG GAMES without all 3? answer is, not very likely
good teams come and go. good programs stand the test of time. good programs need to have a combination of "culture" coaches and "scheme" coaches. they need to have a combination of "old school" and "new school" coaches --whatever that really is, but the point is good programs diversify their staff with a good mix of coaching personalities and skill sets. good programs have a set of expectations and a system/approach of accountability. good programs find ways to win with all sorts of talent-levels because of the other mix of things within their program. think... "that good culture/program only went 7-4 with those kids (who were marginal athletes)" ... but, what if they didn't have the other? maybe they go 2-8.
IDK... the point i'm making is that PROGRAMS have a mixture of the entire thing. we always talk "toolbox" on offensive philosophy but that same thing applies to your program. you will need a combination of things to win CONSISTENTLY at the higher levels. otherwise, we all just sit around waiting for our SEC dudes to enroll, catch lightning in a bottle, and move on to the next thing.
|
|
|
Post by mnike23 on Mar 14, 2019 10:48:03 GMT -6
Thank you for all the responses. There have been some great ones! Again, just looking for insight on the topic at hand, not trying to start a war. Here is part 2 of the discussion - For me, Here is what started this discussion, we took a program that had NEVER been to the state championship, and the staff before us had built somewhat of a previous established "culture",but within 2 years of new staff (us) being there, we were playing for a state title, thus I bring this point. When we came in, HC made one thing clear, "We are to win football games, not establish culture." Thus, we got on the white board, broke down the film, and made X's & O's our priority. We didn't do anything different than anyone else in America is doing as it relates to "culture"/"discipline". 2 years ago we played in the state championship in the highest classification in our state, year after that we made the quarterfinals (Elite 8), after that year AND due to the success we have had, every coach left for other opportunities, assistants became coordinators, coordinators became head coaches, and head coach left for a better program. **This is not a pat on the back/look at me discussion** I left after that season, Now, this said program went 3-7 this year, AGAIN AFTER two years ago going to the state finals with an entirely different staff this year. I have kids still text me saying how much they miss us, etc. I do not have a dog in the fight as I am not with this program any longer and this is NOT some vendetta I am on, merely hate it for the kids who grew up with lots of success WITHOUT the whole buzz word of motto, culture, etc. and they are getting beat over the head with it daily. To answer some of your questions/comments... Yes, we used the word "culture", "discipline", etc. but we never did anything to the likes of team building activities that you see all over social media now a days. And the comment about our guys just loved playing ball, it had NOTHING to do with us as coaches, it had everything to do with the kids wanted to be at the field-house. Sure, we made it a welcoming environment as coaches, but never did we keep them there just to keep them there, such as rope courses, leadership council, etc. It was weight room, film room, practice, game night, go home. To me, that is not "culture", that is doing what you're suppose to do to WIN games. For some of you, you might call that "culture", to us, it wasn't. That was the job. Another thought for you - We have heard, "It's not the X's & O's, it's the Jimmies and Joes.".....I DO NOT DISAGREE! Sometimes your opponent DNA is just better and no matter what, the likelihood of you winning is slim, ...... .however, what I DO BELIEVE, is when you have the opponent who is equal to you or might be a little better, I believe coaching/X's & O's play a HUGE factor in those types of games, more so than your "culture." In all sincerity thank you for your responses, as I am merely trying to gauge your responses. Love the discussion guys! 99.9% agree. .1 is the culture you have created. doing your job, getting to work on time, busting your hump, watching film with kids and teaching them. that is a culture. regardless of what you guys think or dont think, thats what it is. it sounds like to me by reading, the staff is all blue collar guys, lets get dirty, work your A$$ off, push the kids to the edge and then make em fly, out work the other team and their coaches. so if you push that motto, mantra, culture on the kids, that this is how we will win, you have created a new culture. obviously by leaving, the new staff couldnt sustain what you guys did, not enough knowledge or didnt like what you were doing(other than winning), coach talk, work, etc.... they are tearing down your foundation/culture.
|
|
|
Post by mnike23 on Mar 14, 2019 11:07:40 GMT -6
As we've alluded to already, I think a lot of this discussion really just boils down to semantics. OP has coached at places with good "culture," but he doesn't like the idea of using the word "culture" to describe that, nor did they preach it. They still had it and sustained it, though. To him, "culture" seems to be a showy, feel-good thing with stunts and team-building activities and other nonsense that get attention for the coaches, but are of questionable benefit. I get that. What I propose is to look at the two extremes here and ask yourself: which coach is likely to win with equal raw natural talent? Coach A is a "culture" coach who doens't know jack about Xs and Os. His coaches are solid role models who have strong relationships with the players. The players love football and lift almost religiously. His staff, while clueless about the latest spread RPO quadruple options people are running, are good at coaching fundamentals of blocking, tackling, ball security, etc. He does the goofy teambuilding activities and speaks in Tony Robbins' motivational quotes like some goofy internet meme generator. However, their schemes are extremely simplistic and pretty easy to scheme against: they sit in one formation and run the same 3 plays over and over all night long. Coach B is an "Xs and Os" coach. He can give you a clinic on everything under the sun. He installs an extremely complex offense with every adjustment under the sun and 1,001 defensive fronts and coverages a year. Opponents absolutely hate scouting and trying to gameplan against what he's doing. However, he doesn't have much team discipline. Techniques are sloppy, especially on the OL and in the secondary. Players lift when they feel like it so his players are weak, slow, and soft. Coaches berate players for mistakes and his numbers are low, with players and parents blaming each other and the coaches for every mistake or loss, so nobody wants to step up and take responsibility. Now, imagine those coaches take their teams (with equal genetics) into a game against each other on Friday night. You have to place a large bet on one team. Which would it be? simple the "culture" coach. his 3 plays and simplistic approach will defeat the un disciplined, lazy, weak, slow, soft group. the coaches will get mad because they worked on stopping ISO all week. they will use facemelter defense and kids cannot line up in it because they dont care about coach.... coach A squad kids care that the coaches care and will run thru the wall for him. hes "lame" and pretty outdated with his coaching attire, but, he loves his boys and they love him back. lol
|
|
|
Post by mnike23 on Mar 14, 2019 11:13:29 GMT -6
In response to eagleoc , Here is what I agree with you about... Trust. But, with some reservations. Yes, we all want our roster to believe in us as coaches, but they can believe in us without the rah-rah, culture, win one for the gipper speech. However, I am not doing anything different than you are in your program, and in all reality, we are probably doing ALOT less when it comes to all the rah-rah/culture stuff. Example - Yesterday, we installed tags off RPO on offense and another strong & weak blitz on defense, while some of our opponents (who we haven't lost to in 5 years) tweeted out that they were doing some leadership manual, trust falls, and whatever other stuff. We...were doing FOOTBALL! Yes, these opponents will beat us one day, but for now, in March, we are trying to beat them on the field. Have never seen a conference championship/playoff win/gold ball handed out for winning the culture fight. Just finished up year 12 in this business, and I have been 13-1 and I have been 2-8 in my career, and here is the difference I notice... The 13-1 year, yes we had 3 MID-MAJOR FBS kids (and I know that makes a difference), but we did very little when it came to the whole culture thing. We did the same drills, same lifts, same film study everyone does, but devoted our time as coaches to the office and to the players getting better in the weight room and on the field! All the leadership manual/ropes course stuff, we saw as a time that could be spent on something else, ya know like...FOOTBALL! The 2-8 year, and yes, we still had 1 MID-MAJOR FBS kid, we spent more freaking time on culture and leadership manuals than we did studying the game, thus I got my butt out of there. Now... Again, respectfully disagree. My kids can watch the same amount of film, do less sprints, do less squats, less time at the field-house, and not have to hear the word "culture", and still believe they can win. You're down 18-0, and YOUR KID excites the team...Again, has nothing to do with your coaches. I still believe that is kid led. You're telling me that going 0-10/2-8, you don't need to spend more time on X's & O's? Come on now. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to run into Friday night with only IZ, OZ, Counter and one front, one coverage, and one blitz and hope for the best. I am going to give my kids a chance with scheme, if we get beat, ok. But, I am not going to walk off the field saying, "I wish I had more tools in my toolbox." Again, thank you all for the responses. This has been a healthy discussion. I look forward to reading more. i wont argue with what your saying about the tool belt. those lean years, i schemed harder than ever to get us just 1 more win. but, regardless, those are culture things you guys have created as hard workers. call it mentality, or desire or just who you are, it is culture.
|
|
|
Post by olballcoach on Mar 14, 2019 11:35:34 GMT -6
Hey mnike23, Let's work together! You are right on target. And I won't "tear down" the current staff that is there. I don't work there anymore, just breaks my heart when kids that grew up in our junior high and underclassmen text me and say how much they miss me/us. In response to eagleoc, your college coach got a bonus if you guys had high enough GPA, so there's that... Also, kids showing up on time, doing the work, going to practice, etc...NOTHING ABOUT THAT SAYS CULTURE! THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE SUPPOSE TO DO! And please don't give me the, "They are 16 year old kids, never know what they are going to do." Here is how we handled a kid that consistently was late, failed class, etc....we cut him! Why...Because that is what the REAL WORLD will do! If you want to see that as "culture", fine. That was merely the standard. Again, we did nothing different in the weight room, the practice field, etc. than anyone else is doing in America. We trained just like you did, coached hard, but loved them at the end of day. Again, not wasting time on the buzz word "culture/mantra/motto"... I am merely giving my .02 and experience about being 13-1 and being 2-8. Look, I'll be honest, I am the coach that prides himself on the X's & O's, and trying to win every whiteboard discussion, and please don't give me the "It's not the whiteboard, it's the kids." If I can get my kid to be the free hitter on the board AND on game night, then I win. Please don't give me the "Jimmies and Joes" speech. If I can have one more guy to tackle or 2 on 1 against your stud WR, I can lay my head down at night knowing I won before the game is played. I guess what I am so interested in, why do people spend time on culture/rah-rah/leadership manuals, when it could be spent on football stuff...? My point - How many times have we got to game night and the kid is confused and coach is pissed, and we start pointing fingers (and you know we have ALL been there)...Willing to bet it has ALOT to do with, SOME dudes were more worried about "culture/rah-rah" than teaching football in January-February-March. It drives me insane when a coach says K.I.S.S. ---- PLEASE STOP! Am I wrong in saying that when coaches use that, that is a cop out? Shouldn't coaches be using their "culture" time to study the game with staff members, instead of "Choosing draft teams for our offseason conditioning program" Again, food for thought. And yes, I still the irony of me "wasting time" by even typing this, but I really want to engage on the discussion of this. Thanks again guys! Love the discussion.
|
|
|
Post by mnike23 on Mar 14, 2019 11:50:22 GMT -6
Hey mnike23 , Let's work together! You are right on target. And I won't "tear down" the current staff that is there. I don't work there anymore, just breaks my heart when kids that grew up in our junior high and underclassmen text me and say how much they miss me/us. In response to eagleoc , your college coach got a bonus if you guys had high enough GPA, so there's that... Also, kids showing up on time, doing the work, going to practice, etc...NOTHING ABOUT THAT SAYS CULTURE! THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE SUPPOSE TO DO! And please don't give me the, "They are 16 year old kids, never know what they are going to do." Here is how we handled a kid that consistently was late, failed class, etc....we cut him! Why...Because that is what the REAL WORLD will do! If you want to see that as "culture", fine. That was merely the standard. Again, we did nothing different in the weight room, the practice field, etc. than anyone else is doing in America. We trained just like you did, coached hard, but loved them at the end of day. Again, not wasting time on the buzz word "culture/mantra/motto"... I am merely giving my .02 and experience about being 13-1 and being 2-8. Look, I'll be honest, I am the coach that prides himself on the X's & O's, and trying to win every whiteboard discussion, and please don't give me the "It's not the whiteboard, it's the kids." If I can get my kid to be the free hitter on the board AND on game night, then I win. Please don't give me the "Jimmies and Joes" speech. If I can have one more guy to tackle or 2 on 1 against your stud WR, I can lay my head down at night knowing I won before the game is played. I guess what I am so interested in, why do people spend time on culture/rah-rah/leadership manuals, when it could be spent on football stuff...? My point - How many times have we got to game night and the kid is confused and coach is pissed, and we start pointing fingers (and you know we have ALL been there)...Willing to bet it has ALOT to do with, SOME dudes were more worried about "culture/rah-rah" than teaching football in January-February-March. It drives me insane when a coach says K.I.S.S. ---- PLEASE STOP! Am I wrong in saying that when coaches use that, that is a cop out? Shouldn't coaches be using their "culture" time to study the game with staff members, instead of "Choosing draft teams for our offseason conditioning program" Again, food for thought. And yes, I still the irony of me "wasting time" by even typing this, but I really want to engage on the discussion of this. Thanks again guys! Love the discussion. im in, lets go! lol!!!
|
|
|
Post by tothehouse on Mar 14, 2019 12:43:38 GMT -6
From 1984 to 2009 our school averaged 10 wins a season. (Disclaimer...in CA the "new" state playoff system started in 2006 and now teams can play 16 game seasons. Most teams played 13 or 14 games up to 2005)
The "culture" that was built over that time engulfed the community. I think it was embraced by the school, but I'm not quite sure of how deeply it was ingrained (vast amounts of jealously from teachers/coaches of other sports).
Either way the program rolled. Rolled through bigger, faster, stronger teams. Rolled in good weather, bad weather, on the road, and at home (still owns the area's longest home winning streak - 48 straight wins at home).
Then, the powers that be happened. The football success we had drove the other sports. The state federation and our school decided that we would stay in the highest classification (Division 1 in CA) even though our enrollment dropped by 50%. You read that correctly. 50% enrollment drop from 2000 to 2014. Vast and various reasons for this.
But since the state and our school saw our success...they decided to put us in the best league in the highest classification. And the league we were in the last 8 years before this past season was probably the best all public school league in California.
What happened to us? 2013 0-10, 2014 3-7, 2015 2-8, 2016 2-8, 2017 2-8. 9 wins in over those 5 years.
A different coach came in...but he was a player for some of the great earlier teams. He knows/knew the culture, etc.
It came down to community factors, enrollment numbers, Title 1 students (2009 5% of the school was Title 1. 2018 45% of the school Title 1).
I coached harder from 2013 to 2017 than I did the previous 15 years I was here. I put in more time during the first 15 years, but we had things rolling. We had serious athletes. We had a lot.
Then we lose kids, get put into the wrong league, can't hire teachers that coach, the type of kid living in the community changed....and the decline happened.
I currently am not coaching because I have serious doubts about the situation. For awhile there I thought I knew what I was doing. Then...9 wins in 5 years. 2 wins at home. My own kids going through the program they once thought was the best thing in the world...and now it's below average.
Is that culture? I think it's a combination of many factors. And the fact that the teams we were playing had so many guys playing on Saturdays and now...on Sundays. These teams were LOADED!!!
I don't wish our situation on any school...ever. It's been awful. And it's going to be hard to get out of...even though we're in a new league.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2019 13:42:36 GMT -6
I what I am so interested in, why do people spend time on culture/rah-rah/leadership manuals, when it could be spent on football stuff...? My point - How many times have we got to game night and the kid is confused and coach is pissed, and we start pointing fingers (and you know we have ALL been there)...Willing to bet it has ALOT to do with, SOME dudes were more worried about "culture/rah-rah" than teaching football in January-February-March. It drives me insane when a coach says K.I.S.S. ---- PLEASE STOP! Am I wrong in saying that when coaches use that, that is a cop out? Shouldn't coaches be using their "culture" time to study the game with staff members, instead of "Choosing draft teams for our offseason conditioning program" Again, food for thought. And yes, I still the irony of me "wasting time" by even typing this, but I really want to engage on the discussion of this. Thanks again guys! Love the discussion. A couple of things: 1. Why are they more worried about rah rah stuff? Because that’s something that *looks* good for a coach. If you take over a 1-9 team, everybody KNOWS you suck and wants to badmouth your program. By doing that stuff, hopefully you get kids to enjoy football, come out, and try harder so they get better. Plus... these are the days of social media. It impresses people and makes it all about YOU as the coach so you get the attention and feeds into a lot of media hype about what a coach should be. It also reassures the administrators, parents, and boosters with your job in their hands that you are something special. It’s a dog and pony show and it’s done for the reasons people put on dog and pony shows. For a lot of coaches, this is a way to impress the people hiring coaches—it’s how guys like Butch Jones and PJ Fleck go from Central Michigan to big-time jobs overnight. Also... a lot of coaches are going to grind every way they can. If you tell them they can grind about "culture" and do "team-building activities" and stuff all year long, they're going to spend time grinding on that, too. 2. I don’t think that stuff is what people really mean when they mean culture, as we’ve said. Working hard to get better, focusing on teaching fundamentals so kids get better at football... that is real "culture" and what most coaches are actually concerned with when they use the term. 3. We all know there is such a thing as too much scheme or too complicated a scheme. People saying to KISS are cautioning you to prioritize fundamentals and execution over a bunch of lines on a board. You can’t effectively teach scheme without good work ethic and organization, which is part of “culture.” 4. As @coachhuey pointed out, this is a false dichotomy. If you want to win consistently and be good, you need both. There are lots of ways you can sink a ship. All the whiteboard skills on earth won’t save you if you don’t know how to teach it to your players or if you can’t get players to care enough to put in the work.
|
|
|
Post by somecoach on Mar 14, 2019 23:45:21 GMT -6
The 13-1 year, yes we had 3 MID-MAJOR FBS kids (and I know that makes a difference), but we did very little when it came to the whole culture thing. We did the same drills, same lifts, same film study everyone does, but devoted our time as coaches to the office and to the players getting better in the weight room and on the field! All the leadership manual/ropes course stuff, we saw as a time that could be spent on something else, ya know like...FOOTBALL! The 2-8 year, and yes, we still had 1 MID-MAJOR FBS kid, we spent more freaking time on culture and leadership manuals than we did studying the game, thus I got my butt out of there. You're telling me that going 0-10/2-8, you don't need to spend more time on X's & O's? Come on now. Again, thank you all for the responses. This has been a healthy discussion. I look forward to reading more. IMO the concept/exact phrase of "creating culture" could probably be tracked down to a college coaching sitting in or teaching some sort of sociology or business management class... in business school they taught us that in order to build a successful business culture one must have an external goal for the business that reaches beyond the actual function of the company, but is preformed by the functions of the company The biggest example of this is Apple's mission statement under steve jobs “To make a contribution to the world by making tools for the mind that advance humankind". or in other words, their external goal is the advancement of mankind, but they just so happen to make gadgets that you will be dependent on to function in society thus making them billions of dollars in revenue. Yet from my own personal experience (doing manual labor), the guy who owns the local bagel store who barely passed highschool a nd probably can't define the word culture runs his business on the premise of "we make good bagels" and commands his workers under the logic of "this is how i want it done" the bagel store owner doesn't have time to overthink about slogans/culture building activities...he just makes good bagels, adjusts the price to inflation/profit margin, and opens up more stores; if he preoccupied himself with thinking about abstract ideas regarding the changing of the community he would go out of business... Thus the bagel store owner may not be able to define his culture as a CEO or college proffessor can... but his culture lives in the "how he want's it done" ... now applying this to football My opinion for what a football team's mission statement should be: "We are here to make these kids into the men our future needs, we just do it by preparing the boys to win football games". as for winning the games, its a sliding scale between having the better dudes vs culture, execution, and overall scheme. (outside of leaving receivers wide open) therefore teams with poor culture and coaching can be successful when their dudes just out execute the other teams based on their God given talent. as shown in your personal anecdote, some guys suffer from paralysis by analysis when it comes to building their culture when they should have been working on the teams actual ability to play football. however, ive seen it go the other way when a coach can win all the chalk wars... but tolerates a !@#$ culture where the players can't focus long enough to even learn the X's and O's let alone execute them. Therefore, my opinion is Yes, scheme is what actually wins the game on the field, but it is upheld by the culture created by the coach that allows the players to develop their ability to execute the scheme. It is the life lessons of showing up on time, paying attention, being able to use criticism to their advantage, doing things they don't want to do correctly, and learning to do the right thing that will in the bigger picture make them into better men when they graduate from highschool.
|
|
|
Post by CS on Mar 15, 2019 5:32:04 GMT -6
Hey mnike23, Let's work together! You are right on target. And I won't "tear down" the current staff that is there. I don't work there anymore, just breaks my heart when kids that grew up in our junior high and underclassmen text me and say how much they miss me/us. In response to eagleoc, your college coach got a bonus if you guys had high enough GPA, so there's that... Also, kids showing up on time, doing the work, going to practice, etc...NOTHING ABOUT THAT SAYS CULTURE! THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE SUPPOSE TO DO! And please don't give me the, "They are 16 year old kids, never know what they are going to do." Here is how we handled a kid that consistently was late, failed class, etc....we cut him! Why...Because that is what the REAL WORLD will do! If you want to see that as "culture", fine. That was merely the standard. Again, we did nothing different in the weight room, the practice field, etc. than anyone else is doing in America. We trained just like you did, coached hard, but loved them at the end of day. Again, not wasting time on the buzz word "culture/mantra/motto"... I am merely giving my .02 and experience about being 13-1 and being 2-8. Look, I'll be honest, I am the coach that prides himself on the X's & O's, and trying to win every whiteboard discussion, and please don't give me the "It's not the whiteboard, it's the kids." If I can get my kid to be the free hitter on the board AND on game night, then I win. Please don't give me the "Jimmies and Joes" speech. If I can have one more guy to tackle or 2 on 1 against your stud WR, I can lay my head down at night knowing I won before the game is played. I guess what I am so interested in, why do people spend time on culture/rah-rah/leadership manuals, when it could be spent on football stuff...? My point - How many times have we got to game night and the kid is confused and coach is pissed, and we start pointing fingers (and you know we have ALL been there)...Willing to bet it has ALOT to do with, SOME dudes were more worried about "culture/rah-rah" than teaching football in January-February-March. It drives me insane when a coach says K.I.S.S. ---- PLEASE STOP! Am I wrong in saying that when coaches use that, that is a cop out? Shouldn't coaches be using their "culture" time to study the game with staff members, instead of "Choosing draft teams for our offseason conditioning program" Again, food for thought. And yes, I still the irony of me "wasting time" by even typing this, but I really want to engage on the discussion of this. Thanks again guys! Love the discussion. You can’t discount the Jimmies and the Joes. If my free hitter is an average high school kid and your ball carrier is an SEC running back my kid isn’t going to win that consistently. I get what your point is though that coaches use that as an excuse too much. You can have a multiple defense/offense and still be KISS in fact that’s what makes a great “schemer.” Pretty much all you are saying is “culture” and a good one. I’m not into the rah rah stuff and actively block those on twitter who are. If you do things the right way it trickles down
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Mar 15, 2019 11:17:04 GMT -6
A. I have seen and been part of it on both sides. Outstanding post @coacharnold , but going to have to go with B, but again, did you have to throw in the players are weak, slow, and soft. Give me the EXACT SAME talent as team A & team B, I'll take team/coach B The problem here is that again you don't seem to be using the same definition of culture that everyone else is. You don't seem to realize that. In the comparison made by @coacharnold the team from the program with the good "culture" isn't going to have weak, soft, slow players. That is what everyone keeps trying to tell you. So if you are trying to make it an one or the other situation, then that is how it would shake out. If you are saying do you want a program with dedicated hard working players and coaches who hold football with high importance but have unsound schemes but do lock ins and have a leadership council or a program of dedicated hard working players and coaches who hold football with high importance and have sound schemes but no leadership council, I think everyone here would pick the latter. Not sure what the discussion would be. Great culture doesn't make NFL First Round Picks, but it sure as heck makes a lot of First team/ Second team all District, All Area type picks. The thing is coach, that even after multiple coaches have said that the guys on twitter talking about the grind doesn't = a good culture and having lock ins or leadership teams doesn't = a good culture, you keep trying to equate everything to that.
|
|
|
Post by carookie on Mar 15, 2019 11:48:15 GMT -6
There seems to be a lot of issues with people using different definitions for what culture means, and to an extent a lot of apples to oranges arguments going on.
In addition, I think there is a lot of 'Cart Before the Horse' type mentality here in regards to culture in some regards. It appears for a some, the definition of culture relies heavily on the outcomes of the players; a good culture is one in which the Players work hard, the Players are dedicated, the Players are accountable to one another. To be fair this is somewhat unfair to use as a definition of good culture because it is using the outcome to define it. It akin to saying a good weight program is one that has strong kids, or the key to having a winning program is to win games. Instead of using success to define, what are the causes of success.
So, in lieu of saying that good culture is one that has the kids commit these acts (because maybe they naturally were that way to begin with) I think we need to point out what the coaches do to cause the kids to behave in such a way. Then, we need to ask whether or not the actions of the coaches to create that 'good culture' consistently work across the board.
Its easy to point to a hard working group of kids and laud your programs culture, its more important to explain what your culture did to make them hard working. Their actions arent the culture, their actions are the outcome of the culture.
|
|
|
Post by coachklee on Mar 15, 2019 17:21:54 GMT -6
Yes, you read that correctly. Scheme Defeats Culture. I am sure I will get criticized about this, and please understand I am not here to start World War III, merely a healthy discussion about all the 21st century buzz words that are being thrown around. Was reading another read about "Trust The Process", which got me to thinking...Why, why, why are we acting like culture matters on game night? Before you culture freaks go off, let me set something straight... 1. Yes I believe "culture" is important. For parents, admin, program, etc. Yes, you have to have some type of "rah-rah" within your program, some type of motto, something that your kids must believe sets them apart. However, I get so sick and tired of people using the word "culture" or "process", please just stop. Saw a guy tweet the other day, "I'm not afraid of your X's & O's, I fear your culture." To me, all of that sounds just awful. Maybe I am in the minority, but I have won alot more games game planning and making adjustments, than using the word culture at halftime. Have never won a state championship, but have coached in two of them, and here is what I noticed about those two teams... 1. Guys who just loved playing the game. Of those two years, we had a total of 3 guys who went on to play mid-major FBS football, not power 5. 2. It was the best staff I have ever been on, because we studied the game, watched film, and prepared! We didn't waste time discussing what type of leadership ideas we were going to do in January. I am not saying we never used the word "culture", but I am saying that we worried more the game as opposed to all the leadership techniques 3. We didn't waste time on culture ideas, river floats, lock ins, dads & donuts, helmets & heels, and all the other stuff that people do now a days, but rather that time was devoted to the weight room, film room, and practice field to prepare to WIN! When the work was done, we went home. Here is another thing, when I go to clinics, I want to hear ball! I don't want some guy telling me about how their culture is so much better than mine, and then pull up a clip of 4 star D1 guy busting 3 tackles on inside zone. Also, there is actually a guy who wrote a book about "Culture Defeats Strategy", and people actually buy this! Why? And this 3D coaching that is out there. Come on guys, football & athletics have been going before we were born and will continue long after we die. Our parents and grandparents played this game, without all the books, manuals, motivational talk, etc. and they did just fine, thus brings my question...Why in 2019 are people so sold on this "culture-chemistry-discipline" mantra? What has happen to us; and there are actually people making money off selling books that discuss culture? Blows my mind. Also, think about this, you are paid to win games, and if you don't believe that, you are fooling yourself. Your admin doesn't fire you because your culture is the best in the country. I have never seen a coach fired because of culture or lack there of, and we all know it's true. Again, I am not trying to start a nuclear meltdown, I am trying to give my .02, but also gather your insight on the matter. My question - Does culture really matter at kickoff? Again, refer to earlier in my post, culture is important and must be part of your program. *I do NOT disagree with that*. But what about those moments, when it's 4th & 1, and you get stuffed and lose the game? Are you going to blame your culture or blame the play call? So for all you culture dudes out there, couple of questions... 1. Can you really make a 16 year old kid regardless of financial status, race, color, or creed a leader? 2. If you go 0-10/1-9/2-8, how do you get your kids to believe that you are the best program in the country? (To me, sounds like you need to spend more time on X's & O's as opposed to the whole culture thing, but that's just me.) 3. Does your "culture" really make a difference at kickoff?
I was the one that posted that the other day on twitter and I believe it is true.
Respectfully, I don't think the things that you are describing are culture. Having a mom's clinic, or dad's and donuts is not culture. That is stuff you do to include people in your program and build support.
Culture is defined by Websters as "the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution or organization." These are the things your program does. How hard do they work? How much film is studied? How do they respond to adverse situations? That is culture, not a slogan on a t-shirt. Though slogans should reinforce your culture.
Most coaches, have a good idea of what is going on and can figure out a good game plan for each opponent. It doesn't matter if the kids don't execute. The ability to have the team buy in to what you are selling for your gameplan is culture. That is trust, because you may have had a great gameplan last week and it didn't work. Trust is culture. We know in this game we have to play as a team, not individuals, except we can all probably point to teams we have played aginst (or coached) that were bigger, stronger, faster) but lacked discipline, motivation, etc. and were not good teams and either didn't win or didn't win games they should.
I think it does matter on gamenight, because one of the things we know is that things are not going to go according to plan. Your team has 2 choices, whine or get over it. I believe it is teenagers natrual inclination to do the former. Young men have to be taught how to deal with adversity, because they will face it all of their lives....teaching it is part of our jobs.
To answer your questions. 1. Can you really make a 16 year old kid regardless of financial status, race, color, or creed a leader?
I don't know if you can make every kid a leader, but I dang sure believe you can improve their leadership ability. I started a leadership program based off of the book THE TEAM CAPTAIN'S LEADERSHIP MANUAL by Jeff Jansen. We met during lunch once a week and went through the various topics in the book. If a player wanted to be considered for being a captain then they had to attend.
The next year we went 10-3, which was our school's best season ever....by far. Now did I have some studs? Definitely, but I believe that there are 2 games we won that I believe we would have lost in the past because of the leadership our players showed and their willingness to buy in to what I was selling and keep believing. In the past we would have fallen apart.
(A little background on one of those games. The week before we had just hosted our first home playoff game in the 38 year history of our school and won only the second playoff game in that time. When i blinked we were down 18-0 in the first quarter.
Two things I will never forget. 1. After they went up 18-0, my Senior OL/DL coming off of the field and looking at his teammates and saying "Let's go they ain't sh*t." His teammates took notice and their heads lifted. This was a kid that was prone to meltdowns.
2. We score to make it 18-7. They fumble, we score again. Its 18-14. We go into the locker room at halftime and our kids are pumped up and their kids are screaming at eachother and the coaches. I told our kids to listen really closesly. They did and i told them that is why we would win. We were handling adversity, they were falling apart. That is culture.)
2. If you go 0-10/1-9/2-8, how do you get your kids to believe that you are the best program in the country? (To me, sounds like you need to spend more time on X's & O's as opposed to the whole culture thing, but that's just me.) Respectfully disagree.
I think if you are 0-10 you can't get them to realistically think they are the best team in America. You have to focus on taking small steps.
Lou Holtz said there are 4 stages of a program Learning how to compete Learning how to win Learning how to handle winning Learning how to become a championship-level program
When I took over as head coach at my school in 2012 we had 1 winning season in 35 years and had a whopping 76-276 program record.
That first year we learned how to compete, almost beating (but not so its still a L) some very good teams. The next year we went 7-4, which was best in school history at the time. That year we learned how to win. We spent the next few years learning how to win.
We finally got to the point where we had to learn how to handle winning (I think/hope) when I stepped down this year.
Hopefully we can get the the next stage soon.
Now I had some DANG good players, but I don't think my success was because I was so much smarter calling plays than anyone else. I think its because we got our kids to play hard and believe, which is culture.
3. Does your "culture" really make a difference at kickoff? I believe it does. What happens when you are on the road and getting homered by the refs? How do your kids respond? How is your kids mental toughness? How hard have they watched film to prepare for this game? How many weights did they lift and sprints did they run at full go to get ready for the game? That is culture.
Awesome post! Thanks to the OP for getting the conversation started. This is the stuff that wins a game or two you shouldn’t win based on talent alone.
|
|
|
Post by coachks on Mar 15, 2019 17:55:45 GMT -6
I think a big part of the split here is that "culture" has become conflated with Tom Herman and PJ Fleck and that brand of showmanship. Thea idea that a catchy motto, insincere displays of affection and buzzwords are going to make you a winner. Like so many, they are marketing themselves at all times, under the guise of being a "players coach" whenever cameras are rolling. That's BS and fluff.
Culture that wins you games is Saban/Belichick/Chip(@oregon)/Urban/Harbaugh. They grind their guys to dust, burn bridges left and right and are generally a-holes with regards to the game and how things are done. Whether you call it "The Process" or whatever, the idea that the game is a meritocracy, they have exacting standards on exactly how it HAS to be done, and anybody not hitting those standards is gone.
And when I think about the HoF level coaches I've been around (not just football, all sports). They guys with multiple state championships ect, that is exactly how they are. It doesn't mean they treat everyone like garbage, and it doesn't mean you have to be a miserable dictator. But they have no problem processing people who don't meet the standard. Get better or get passed.
Now, the practicality of that in the high school setting is a real issue. Some programs with "tradition" have kids who are young and hungry and can pass a senior who wants to skip spring weights. Other programs have 35 kids, and no matter how hard #33, #34 # work, they aint getting into the top 22.
As far as building confidence - that comes through good teaching / coaching and the kids being prepared for a situation. Kids who know their job inside and out play with confidence. Kids who don't play slow and start to blame everyone else. It's not rah-rah stuff. Breaking it down to "family" doesn't create a brotherhood and having a locker in doesn't make you OLB sit on QB. Having a good staff that has been working their responsibilities and correcting every mistake in practice is what makes your OLB sit on the QB.
|
|
|
Post by silkyice on Mar 15, 2019 22:28:30 GMT -6
I think a big part of the split here is that "culture" has become conflated with Tom Herman and PJ Fleck and that brand of showmanship. Thea idea that a catchy motto, insincere displays of affection and buzzwords are going to make you a winner. Like so many, they are marketing themselves at all times, under the guise of being a "players coach" whenever cameras are rolling. That's BS and fluff. Culture that wins you games is Saban/Belichick/Chip(@oregon)/Urban/Harbaugh. They grind their guys to dust, burn bridges left and right and are generally a-holes with regards to the game and how things are done. Whether you call it "The Process" or whatever, the idea that the game is a meritocracy, they have exacting standards on exactly how it HAS to be done, and anybody not hitting those standards is gone. And when I think about the HoF level coaches I've been around (not just football, all sports). They guys with multiple state championships ect, that is exactly how they are. It doesn't mean they treat everyone like garbage, and it doesn't mean you have to be a miserable dictator. But they have no problem processing people who don't meet the standard. Get better or get passed. Now, the practicality of that in the high school setting is a real issue. Some programs with "tradition" have kids who are young and hungry and can pass a senior who wants to skip spring weights. Other programs have 35 kids, and no matter how hard #33, #34 # work, they aint getting into the top 22. As far as building confidence - that comes through good teaching / coaching and the kids being prepared for a situation. Kids who know their job inside and out play with confidence. Kids who don't play slow and start to blame everyone else. It's not rah-rah stuff. Breaking it down to "family" doesn't create a brotherhood and having a locker in doesn't make you OLB sit on QB. Having a good staff that has been working their responsibilities and correcting every mistake in practice is what makes your OLB sit on the QB. Hammer meet head of the nail. THIS
|
|
|
Post by 60zgo on Mar 17, 2019 8:23:37 GMT -6
As we've alluded to already, I think a lot of this discussion really just boils down to semantics. OP has coached at places with good "culture," but he doesn't like the idea of using the word "culture" to describe that, nor did they preach it. They still had it and sustained it, though. To him, "culture" seems to be a showy, feel-good thing with stunts and team-building activities and other nonsense that get attention for the coaches, but are of questionable benefit. I get that. What I propose is to look at the two extremes here and ask yourself: which coach is likely to win with equal raw natural talent? Coach A is a "culture" coach who doens't know jack about Xs and Os. His coaches are solid role models who have strong relationships with the players. The players love football and lift almost religiously. His staff, while clueless about the latest spread RPO quadruple options people are running, are good at coaching fundamentals of blocking, tackling, ball security, etc. He does the goofy teambuilding activities and speaks in Tony Robbins' motivational quotes like some goofy internet meme generator. However, their schemes are extremely simplistic and pretty easy to scheme against: they sit in one formation and run the same 3 plays over and over all night long. Coach B is an "Xs and Os" coach. He can give you a clinic on everything under the sun. He installs an extremely complex offense with every adjustment under the sun and 1,001 defensive fronts and coverages a year. Opponents absolutely hate scouting and trying to gameplan against what he's doing. However, he doesn't have much team discipline. Techniques are sloppy, especially on the OL and in the secondary. Players lift when they feel like it so his players are weak, slow, and soft. Coaches berate players for mistakes and his numbers are low, with players and parents blaming each other and the coaches for every mistake or loss, so nobody wants to step up and take responsibility. Now, imagine those coaches take their teams (with equal genetics) into a game against each other on Friday night. You have to place a large bet on one team. Which would it be? Coach A romps every every time. Pizza Party after the game!
|
|
|
Post by Coach.A on Mar 17, 2019 10:27:15 GMT -6
Coach A is a "culture" coach who doens't know jack about Xs and Os. His coaches are solid role models who have strong relationships with the players. The players love football and lift almost religiously. His staff, while clueless about the latest spread RPO quadruple options people are running, are good at coaching fundamentals of blocking, tackling, ball security, etc. He does the goofy teambuilding activities and speaks in Tony Robbins' motivational quotes like some goofy internet meme generator. However, their schemes are extremely simplistic and pretty easy to scheme against: they sit in one formation and run the same 3 plays over and over all night long. Coach A romps every every time. Pizza Party after the game! Wow! People sure love talking about me in this thread! In all seriousness, I obviously know that "Coach A" is a hypothetical person in the above scenario, but there are some shocking similarities. 3 years ago we switched to an almost "idiot proof" minimalist Wing-T offense. Very basic X's & O's. It was also around that time that I stumbled across Randy Jackson's resources and eventually his book "Culture Defeats Strategy" that was referenced by the OP. I thought the book was EXCELLENT and it was exactly what we needed at that point in our Program's journey. We applied many (not all) of his strategies for building culture and I 100% believe that they worked. We have overachieved significantly the past 3 years and went undefeated this past season and won a provincial championship (state championship). We beat a higher ranked opponent 45-12 in the championship game. The past 2 seasons have been the most successful in the school's 51 year history. Our JV team also went undefeated this past season. Our varsity Team should be even better next year. So far our off-season strength training participation numbers are at an all time high! We are set up for sustained success and I believe Team culture is the driving force behind this.
|
|
center
Junior Member
Posts: 484
|
Post by center on Mar 17, 2019 13:37:46 GMT -6
Maybe, just maybe, this culture/scheme things isn’t an all or none thing.
Maybe it actually takes a combination of both? No?
|
|
|
Post by carookie on Mar 17, 2019 14:21:11 GMT -6
As we've alluded to already, I think a lot of this discussion really just boils down to semantics. OP has coached at places with good "culture," but he doesn't like the idea of using the word "culture" to describe that, nor did they preach it. They still had it and sustained it, though. To him, "culture" seems to be a showy, feel-good thing with stunts and team-building activities and other nonsense that get attention for the coaches, but are of questionable benefit. I get that. What I propose is to look at the two extremes here and ask yourself: which coach is likely to win with equal raw natural talent? Coach A is a "culture" coach who doens't know jack about Xs and Os. His coaches are solid role models who have strong relationships with the players. The players love football and lift almost religiously. His staff, while clueless about the latest spread RPO quadruple options people are running, are good at coaching fundamentals of blocking, tackling, ball security, etc. He does the goofy teambuilding activities and speaks in Tony Robbins' motivational quotes like some goofy internet meme generator. However, their schemes are extremely simplistic and pretty easy to scheme against: they sit in one formation and run the same 3 plays over and over all night long. Coach B is an "Xs and Os" coach. He can give you a clinic on everything under the sun. He installs an extremely complex offense with every adjustment under the sun and 1,001 defensive fronts and coverages a year. Opponents absolutely hate scouting and trying to gameplan against what he's doing. However, he doesn't have much team discipline. Techniques are sloppy, especially on the OL and in the secondary. Players lift when they feel like it so his players are weak, slow, and soft. Coaches berate players for mistakes and his numbers are low, with players and parents blaming each other and the coaches for every mistake or loss, so nobody wants to step up and take responsibility. Now, imagine those coaches take their teams (with equal genetics) into a game against each other on Friday night. You have to place a large bet on one team. Which would it be? I think you are adding aspects to skew the decision towards a desired outcome, relative to the OP, this is best shown through the bolded texts above. Coaching technique is not mutually exclusive to one side of the argument or the other; although you could probably attach technique to scheme moreso than culture if you really wanted to cut hairs. You could easily flip those noted portions (or remove them all told) and it paints a different picture.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2019 14:50:36 GMT -6
Ask Chip Kelly, he was fired from the Eagles and the Niners because he beleived that very thing
Talent trumps everything, scheme and culture can enhance or detract from it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2019 16:39:02 GMT -6
I think you are adding aspects to skew the decision towards a desired outcome, relative to the OP, this is best shown through the bolded texts above. Coaching technique is not mutually exclusive to one side of the argument or the other; although you could probably attach technique to scheme moreso than culture if you really wanted to cut hairs. You could easily flip those noted portions (or remove them all told) and it paints a different picture. I see your point and, objectively, you are correct. However, IME I don't think it ever works that way in reality because it's obvious you can't have a halfway decent "culture" without emphasizing the weight room. That's why those guys who are super into all the showy "culture building stuff" will tweet #embracethegrind every hour or so. However, you can easily focus on Xs and Os without it, or without focusing on how to teach it, and certainly without stressing the weight room. IME, a lot of "Xs and Os" coaches actually do it because they think they can, or must, out scheme their crappy weight room numbers. As I mentioned earlier and as Coach Huey pointed out, this is a false dichotomy, though. Any coach worth his salt understands the importance of the weight room and player environment, whether he does "culture-building" stuff or fancy "Xs and Os" or not.
|
|
|
Post by Coach Vint on Mar 17, 2019 18:04:39 GMT -6
To build a program that consistently competes for state championships you need the following: 1. Talent 2. Excellent Coaches who know how to teach the details and the big picture 3. Coaches who care about their players 4. Players who care about each other
Culture matters. Culture is important. Whether you say the word culture or you despise it, it exists. You can build it by design or build it by chance. Everything the OP has mentioned is culture. I get it, you don't like the word. You don't like coaches tweeting about it. You don't like coaches saying, "look what we do." I liked the book Culture Defeats Strategy. It had some actionable ideas. I loved 3D coaching. We went through a training program at the last school I was at through our local FCA Rep for 8 weeks. It had a ton of great information and helped me as a coach.
Culture is essentially the collective behaviors and attitude of your program. Take all the behaviors and attitudes and add them together and you have your culture. What you do each day with your team will either improve your culture or make it worse. Whether you call it culture, climate, or magic fairy dust, it matters. And yes, we proudly tweet our kids in the weight room and in our circuit. We post videos of our competitive drills. Why? To promote our kids and our program. We tweet when our kids get offers. Why? To promote our kids and our program. We can't control the talent that comes through our door, but we can control how well we coach it, and what we do to grow the young men we coach. We control whether we maximize the talent and performance of our guys. That takes more than football knowledge.
What we do is bigger than football. Yes, we must win to keep our jobs. But what we are really doing is using football as a vehicle to build men. The game doesn't build men. Relationships, expectations, adversity and accountability build men. Those are all aspects of our program. We do happen to coach some football as well with an outstanding staff.
The short answer: You need both.
|
|
eagleoc
Sophomore Member
Posts: 208
|
Post by eagleoc on Mar 18, 2019 10:07:39 GMT -6
Hey mnike23 , Let's work together! You are right on target. And I won't "tear down" the current staff that is there. I don't work there anymore, just breaks my heart when kids that grew up in our junior high and underclassmen text me and say how much they miss me/us. In response to eagleoc , your college coach got a bonus if you guys had high enough GPA, so there's that... Also, kids showing up on time, doing the work, going to practice, etc...NOTHING ABOUT THAT SAYS CULTURE! THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE SUPPOSE TO DO! And please don't give me the, "They are 16 year old kids, never know what they are going to do." Here is how we handled a kid that consistently was late, failed class, etc....we cut him! Why...Because that is what the REAL WORLD will do! If you want to see that as "culture", fine. That was merely the standard. Again, we did nothing different in the weight room, the practice field, etc. than anyone else is doing in America. We trained just like you did, coached hard, but loved them at the end of day. Again, not wasting time on the buzz word "culture/mantra/motto"... I am merely giving my .02 and experience about being 13-1 and being 2-8. olballcoach respectfully, don't understand something. How is it that our college coach got a bonus, but kids showing up on time, going to practice, etc is what you are supposed to do. Aren't you supposed to get good grades? Isn't that the point of college? I'm sorry, but I feel there is a connection between our success on the field and our success in the classroom. These are not mutually exclusive. I agree with you wholeheartedly about the kid. You should have cut him. Good for you. Unfortunately, a lot of programs won't. You call it the standard, i call it culture. Sounds like it is semantics and we are on the same page here. I guess what I am so interested in, why do people spend time on culture/rah-rah/leadership manuals, when it could be spent on football stuff...? Rah Rah stuff is crap. I think this depends on what your goals are. Of course everyone wants to win, but I view myself first and foremost as an educator and it is my job to teach this kids not only how to play the game, but more importantly how to do it the right way. That may be automatic at some programs, but not everywhere.
If our only goal is winning (Not saying yours or anyone else is) then we will be disappointed most of the time. In our state there are over 220 teams playing football. Each year 6 win championships. Therefore most teams will fail if that is their only goal.
My most important goals are to teach life through the game of football. I know I am being hyperbolic, but I use the things I learned and had reinforced as a player, hard work, team work, dedication, accountability on a daily basis. I have yet as a father, husband, citizen or teacher had to properly wrong arm a trap.
Most of my kids aren't going to make it to play college, but they will be citizens, fathers, husbands, etc. I choose to run my program with an emphasis on the culture aspects and feel winning will fall in if you do things right on and off the field. What good have we done as coaches if we produce players who are not good people? At some schools, they may not have to reinforce these things, but many schools do. Our kids don't inherently know the importance of showing up on time and honesty.
I believe if we teach how to do the right things we will see results on the field. Once again I am in a situation, where I have to do this, you may not be.
I guess what I am so interested in, why do people spend time on culture/rah-rah/leadership manuals, when it could be spent on football stuff...? My point - How many times have we got to game night and the kid is confused and coach is pissed, and we start pointing fingers (and you know we have ALL been there)...Willing to bet it has ALOT to do with, SOME dudes were more worried about "culture/rah-rah" than teaching football in January-February-March. It drives me insane when a coach says K.I.S.S. ---- PLEASE STOP! Am I wrong in saying that when coaches use that, that is a cop out? Shouldn't coaches be using their "culture" time to study the game with staff members, instead of "Choosing draft teams for our offseason conditioning program" Again, food for thought. And yes, I still the irony of me "wasting time" by even typing this, but I really want to engage on the discussion of this. Thanks again guys! Love the discussion.
Part of this depends on what you area allowed to do by state regulation and number of players you have. If you have a lot of guys playing winter/spring sports to me it seems like it defeats the purpose to put in "football stuff." I know on the championship teams i was a part of we never did football stuff besides lifting, speed/agility, and conditioning in those months.
When i did my leadership program which I think made a difference, we did it every week at lunch. This was so I could get everyone, even kids in other sports and also so that after school we could lift.
I believe in KISS. Not saying I have all the answers but during my time as head coach we have won 227% more games than all previous years before and scored 225% more points while giving up less than before also.
IN 2015 we had our best season and were simple. Most people couldn't stop it. We ran
Power, Counter, Buck, Sweep, Wedge
Accounted for 64.9% of plays Accounted for 40/58 TDs (68.9%) Accounted for 11/15 2pt Conversions. (73.3%) Accounted for 3,148 yards out of 4,508 (69.8%) total yards Accounted for 3,148 yards rushing of 3,536 yards rushing (89%)
This year we were 10-3, lost one game by going for 2, lost one to a much bigger and better team that kicked our butt, lost state quarterfinal on a hail mary with no time on clock (That still hurts.)
We did what we did and were good at it. Granted we ran different formations and versions of plays, but those were what we did.
As far as talking about game night, you say the kid is confused and the coach is pissed. Could this be because you are trying to do to much? I don't know but I think the question needs to be asked? Doesn't matter if we understand it, matters if the kids do.
Finally and most importantly, I think it comes down to your program and your kids. I don't know whats best for anyone else's program and I doubt they know what's best for mine. As the coach you should be in tune with the needs of the kids. IF they have the character/culture stuff down, then by all means focus on putting in a some more RPO's. My kids don't have the culture stuff down so we need to work on it because it isn't always being reinforced at home.
once again, great discussion. Respect.
|
|
|
Post by coachcb on Mar 18, 2019 10:59:58 GMT -6
U s'pose this all begs the question; how many schools do you see with quality cultures that run crap Xs and Os? I can't name a single one. So, either the emphasis on a simple, sound scheme and fundamentals helps to drive the culture by winning games and/or coaches who've established a positive culture also install fundamentally sound Xs and Os.
|
|
|
Post by 3rdandlong on May 25, 2019 22:49:22 GMT -6
Haven’t read through all of the posts but isn’t Scheme a big part of a team’s Culture??? The 2 should definitely co exist
|
|
bighit65
Junior Member
Make a statement without saying a word.
Posts: 397
|
Post by bighit65 on May 26, 2019 4:57:18 GMT -6
Sound scheme and enthusiastic culture are both required. Thread over. Shut it down, fellas. Nothing to see here.
|
|
|
Post by bobgoodman on May 26, 2019 8:37:14 GMT -6
Haven’t read through all of the posts but isn’t Scheme a big part of a team’s Culture??? Only to a coach.
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on May 26, 2019 8:44:12 GMT -6
Haven’t read through all of the posts but isn’t Scheme a big part of a team’s Culture??? The 2 should definitely co exist Don't bother..lol. It was the ultimate straw man thread, where the OP created two extremes that are greatly in the minority: A coaching style that didn't teach football but posted about teambuilding and culture on social media all the time, and a coaching style that spent hours on x's and o's and scheme but never spent time on building a program or player development. Neither is a realistic style.
|
|
|
Post by option1 on May 27, 2019 6:56:43 GMT -6
I haven't read the entire thread yet and maybe what I'm about to write has been posted...
I can't help but think about this inversely from the way the OP has presented it, particularly because our team, community, etc continues to battle it.
Our "culture" is affected by our scheme and therefore prevents us from reaching our maximum potential. I believe kids are more savvy than they used to be. There's more information being passed around which allows kids, etc to form ideas and opinions of their own. In short, it's hard to explain to a group of kids, parents, etc that absolutely hate running/watching old school wing-t when they know there are modern variations that are "cooler" and more successful/relevant.
We're talking about players that can cite the Auburn's of the football world and question "why we don't?" Our players are true 2 way guys and I'm just the DC but I can tell you it is way more challenging managing the psychological mind F@#$ these kids face during games because we struggle on offense AND they hate playing in it at the same time.
All this to say I definitely believe that there are times when your culture better be in order or your job will be a lot harder and even risk possibly losing your team altogether.
|
|