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Post by olballcoach on Mar 12, 2019 8:56:36 GMT -6
Yes, you read that correctly. Scheme Defeats Culture. I am sure I will get criticized about this, and please understand I am not here to start World War III, merely a healthy discussion about all the 21st century buzz words that are being thrown around.
Was reading another read about "Trust The Process", which got me to thinking...Why, why, why are we acting like culture matters on game night? Before you culture freaks go off, let me set something straight... 1. Yes I believe "culture" is important. For parents, admin, program, etc. Yes, you have to have some type of "rah-rah" within your program, some type of motto, something that your kids must believe sets them apart.
However, I get so sick and tired of people using the word "culture" or "process", please just stop. Saw a guy tweet the other day, "I'm not afraid of your X's & O's, I fear your culture." To me, all of that sounds just awful. Maybe I am in the minority, but I have won alot more games game planning and making adjustments, than using the word culture at halftime. Have never won a state championship, but have coached in two of them, and here is what I noticed about those two teams... 1. Guys who just loved playing the game. Of those two years, we had a total of 3 guys who went on to play mid-major FBS football, not power 5. 2. It was the best staff I have ever been on, because we studied the game, watched film, and prepared! We didn't waste time discussing what type of leadership ideas we were going to do in January. I am not saying we never used the word "culture", but I am saying that we worried more the game as opposed to all the leadership techniques 3. We didn't waste time on culture ideas, river floats, lock ins, dads & donuts, helmets & heels, and all the other stuff that people do now a days, but rather that time was devoted to the weight room, film room, and practice field to prepare to WIN! When the work was done, we went home.
Here is another thing, when I go to clinics, I want to hear ball! I don't want some guy telling me about how their culture is so much better than mine, and then pull up a clip of 4 star D1 guy busting 3 tackles on inside zone. Also, there is actually a guy who wrote a book about "Culture Defeats Strategy", and people actually buy this! Why? And this 3D coaching that is out there. Come on guys, football & athletics have been going before we were born and will continue long after we die. Our parents and grandparents played this game, without all the books, manuals, motivational talk, etc. and they did just fine, thus brings my question...Why in 2019 are people so sold on this "culture-chemistry-discipline" mantra? What has happen to us; and there are actually people making money off selling books that discuss culture? Blows my mind.
Also, think about this, you are paid to win games, and if you don't believe that, you are fooling yourself. Your admin doesn't fire you because your culture is the best in the country. I have never seen a coach fired because of culture or lack there of, and we all know it's true. Again, I am not trying to start a nuclear meltdown, I am trying to give my .02, but also gather your insight on the matter.
My question - Does culture really matter at kickoff? Again, refer to earlier in my post, culture is important and must be part of your program. *I do NOT disagree with that*. But what about those moments, when it's 4th & 1, and you get stuffed and lose the game? Are you going to blame your culture or blame the play call?
So for all you culture dudes out there, couple of questions...
1. Can you really make a 16 year old kid regardless of financial status, race, color, or creed a leader? 2. If you go 0-10/1-9/2-8, how do you get your kids to believe that you are the best program in the country? (To me, sounds like you need to spend more time on X's & O's as opposed to the whole culture thing, but that's just me.) 3. Does your "culture" really make a difference at kickoff?
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Post by olcoach53 on Mar 12, 2019 8:59:56 GMT -6
In reality, in HS football it all boils down to your Jimmy and Joes anyways. I get tired of listening to clinic speakers talk about how simple their offense or defenses are when they have 6 guys that are going to the SEC.
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Post by jgordon1 on Mar 12, 2019 9:03:00 GMT -6
Interestingly, Brian Kight talked about this in one of his talks...He said both are important but people don't focus on culture enough
My Motto (which I stole from the US Army leadership manual) is Be, Know, Do
IMO, the BE would be the culture part, the Know would be the scheme part, and the Do would be the execution part which would also include conditioning. You can't be great w/o all 3...
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Post by realdawg on Mar 12, 2019 9:03:17 GMT -6
I believe it makes a difference when two evenly or nearly evenly matched teams are in the heat of battle in a close game. I do not believe it will allow you to defeat a vastly superior opponent every time out. Also it can’t hurt to teach your kids to be men of character. Even if it doesn’t win on the field it may help them later on in life. It’s like believing in God. If you believe in God and in the end everything you have believed is not true what does it hurt? But if you don’t believe in God and in the end everything you have rejected is true then what are the consequences?
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Post by carookie on Mar 12, 2019 9:14:11 GMT -6
Culture makes a difference if you consider Weight Room and speed training attendance part of your culture. Or if you are trying to turn around a dysfunctional program (and there are a lot of them out there). But I would say for the majority of situations the culture is fine.
In the same way I don't think Scheme matters all that much, if we are comparing one scheme to another. Rather, simply having a sound scheme, which most of us do, is what matters.
So as long as you have a decent culture (where your players work hard, develop, and mostly stay out of trouble) and you have a decent scheme (which is sound and instructed logically and in an easy to execute manner) then you are good.
Wherever you place athletic ability, thats the one that defeats the other.
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Post by KYCoach2331 on Mar 12, 2019 9:36:58 GMT -6
In my opinion, emphasizing culture obviously has a place. It's kind of blown up because of football twitter culture (which I'm a part of, so I'm not trashing football Twitter).
Obviously, you can't have just a culture and win ball games. Just like you can't have just a scheme and win ball games.
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Post by coachwoodall on Mar 12, 2019 9:39:38 GMT -6
Don't confuse culture with buzz words
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Post by doitforthekids on Mar 12, 2019 9:46:06 GMT -6
Sound scheme gives you a chance, athletes can make a good run, but culture is everything! How you work as a program keep you consistently successful; this includes how you work in the weight room, on the track, at practice, and how you play. How you do things determines your programs success, period. Culture encompasses gameplanning, preparing, and scheming, but those alone don’t guarantee chit. You need good football players (culture can develop and recruit these), and sound schemes and planning (staff culture produces these).
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Post by CanyonCoach on Mar 12, 2019 10:19:22 GMT -6
We all have a culture: It is what we do and do not do on a regular basis. It is what we allow and do not allow on a regular basis.
Our culture is: 50% of our football kids lift consistently throughout the year and 50% of them put in quality effort during lifting sessions(this is changing for the better). This means that we rely on 25% of our kids to win games on Friday nights, because the other 75% are not physically prepared to play.
Our culture is: 75% of our student body takes summer school classes (to get ahead-not catch up). Because of when summer school classes are offered we have only twice in 15 years had enough kids to participate in a team camp..and those were one day camps.
Our culture is: we need significant breaks from activity so we have very few 3 sport athletes (no spring ball) and the spring of the year is a negative session and makes getting kids back for summer workouts difficult.
Our Culture is: coaches don't show up for off-season meetings and don't effectively communicate- and our athletes suffer
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klaby
Junior Member
Posts: 389
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Post by klaby on Mar 12, 2019 10:26:46 GMT -6
1st culture. Culture is very important, it keeps kids in your program, and brings kids too your program. Kids quit sports everyday, if you ask them why and get an honest answer most times its culture, they wont use that word but if you break it down, that is the reason. Kids also come back to a sport for the same reasons. Xs and Os don't really change, football is football, sure we tweak it here and there but it is what it is, block, tackle, throw it and catch it, its not rocket science. But culture can and will drive away kids, good kids and bad kids. Ask yourself this, we all have those HS programs in our states that year after year are competing for State. Are they just better at Xs and Os? Or do they attract athletes to the program because of the culture they have created? We have all seen successful coaches leave one program for another and success follows (sometimes it doesn't yes). Why? is it really Xs and Os? Wing T is Wing T...and lastly most of us are HS coaches and is it all about football? or is about turning young boys into successful young men? Xs and Os dont do the later....as for can you make a 16 year old a leader..HELL YES, you can train leadership, with the right guidance and tools...and culture....the Marine Corps is viewed as one of the best fighting forces in the world...we train pretty much the same as everyone else....Culture and leadership are the reasons. Marine History is a primary subject in boot camp, why, to develop the culture that you are the Biggest, baddest SOB in the valley...which in a fight if you have the mindset you cant be beat, chance are you wont be beat...dont believe me, walk into a Navy, Army and Air Force recruiting office, then walk into a Marine office, if you dont see an immediate difference then you aint pay attention...Culture....and I grew up a Navy brat....just my 2 cents...
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Post by breakerdog on Mar 12, 2019 10:36:30 GMT -6
My belief is that a team consists of 3 equal sides of a triangle. The three sides are Technical, Culture and Personnel. The goal for your team is to have the area of the triangle as large as possible. It's possible to have a very short technical line (scheme + fundamentals) and still win if you have a really long Personnel line (Genetically gifted athletes) or vice versa. The sides of these triangles are equal in value to your success. I don't believe that culture beats scheme or personnel beats culture etc. They are all valuable and need to be addressed.
When your team goes into a competition with another, you are generally just comparing the area of your triangles with a little bit of luck factor thrown in.
If you use this to evaluate your team, you can make decisions about where to put more resources. Most of us are limited in the personnel area to what comes in the door. We, as coaches can affect scheme/fundies as well as culture pretty much everyday.
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Post by coachklee on Mar 12, 2019 11:02:16 GMT -6
We all have a culture: It is what we do and do not do on a regular basis. It is what we allow and do not allow on a regular basis. Our culture is: 50% of our football kids lift consistently throughout the year and 50% of them put in quality effort during lifting sessions(this is changing for the better). This means that we rely on 25% of our kids to win games on Friday nights, because the other 75% are not physically prepared to play. Our culture is: 75% of our student body takes summer school classes (to get ahead-not catch up). Because of when summer school classes are offered we have only twice in 15 years had enough kids to participate in a team camp..and those were one day camps. Our culture is: we need significant breaks from activity so we have very few 3 sport athletes (no spring ball) and the spring of the year is a negative session and makes getting kids back for summer workouts difficult. Our Culture is: coaches don't show up for off-season meetings and don't effectively communicate- and our athletes suffer And we all know changing that is necessary to ever do better or improve as a program. Right now I think my HC & the rest of us on staff have picked all the “low hanging fruit” as far as “CULTURE” is concerned. We have 5 win culture right now...we beat the teams we should beat because of better players / better coaching, but come up short against teams that are equal or better. Our weight room participation is similar to you. Most guys come & lift. Only some always get the weekly lifts done (minimum of 2-3 days). Only a few do approach it with a focus & put forth with quality effort to see results that are significantly more than the natural growth & strengthening that all teenagers experience. The importance of football is similar. Being able to rely on ALL players is similar. Like most places vaping has become a big issue. 5 of our guys were caught with vapes in their gym bags. Right now they are all eligible because they used a winter sport or will be using a spring sport to get their quarter season suspension served. However, we have to “pencil” these guys in as reliable because if there is another offense they are caught for they have a year long suspension. 2 of these guys are returning starters...another 1 will probably become a start. I guess we haven’t built a CULTURE strong enough that those kids consider football to be more important than vaping (or at least vaping at school). I get that they are teenagers & teenagers have & will always do these tutors of things, but when something is important you at least do like the MVP from my HS did when he’d give up smoking when the season started in the 2nd Monday of August because football was more important than smoking.
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Post by Defcord on Mar 12, 2019 11:21:57 GMT -6
Don't confuse culture with buzz words This hits the nail on the head. You can call it culture or process or vision or mission or foundation or buy-in or whatever you want, but at the end of the day there has to be expectations for the members of a program. As annoyed as I am with the trend to slap a really big "culture" bow on everything football and consider it mission complete, it's not a zero sum game. Scheme and culture are both pretty darn important.
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Post by chainbucket on Mar 12, 2019 11:58:18 GMT -6
I get what the OP is saying. I feel the same way about buzzwords, fads, and twitter hype. The thing is I think those things have turned "culture" into something it is not, which is some fake and superficial program wide pregame speech. IMO culture is pretty simple, it is just a plan that lays out a framework for what you need to do and expectations for how you need to do it, in order to accomplish your goals (I also think this is at least somewhat synonymous with philosophy). I'm not saying none of this has value but I have seen alot of bad teams have slogans like "________fast", or some GRIND acronym.
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Post by mkuempel on Mar 12, 2019 12:20:26 GMT -6
I have been a part of numerous games that were won because one team expected to win and the other hoped to win, I feel a lot of this has to do with the culture of each team. An established system of success is a culture, it continues over time, and allows players to expect to win, so yes, I do think that a teams culture, even after the ball is kicked off, is a piece of the puzzle of success and can win games that maybe they weren't supposed to win, just my opinion though.
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Post by fadepattern on Mar 12, 2019 12:39:21 GMT -6
I get what the OP is saying. I feel the same way about buzzwords, fads, and twitter hype. The thing is I think those things have turned "culture" into something it is not, which is some fake and superficial program wide pregame speech. IMO culture is pretty simple, it is just a plan that lays out a framework for what you need to do and expectations for how you need to do it, in order to accomplish your goals (I also think this is at least somewhat synonymous with philosophy). I'm not saying none of this has value but I have seen alot of bad teams have slogans like "________fast", or some GRIND acronym. Agreed! Every football program has a culture whether you choose to recognize it or not.
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Post by fantom on Mar 12, 2019 12:43:16 GMT -6
You can't win consistently without a great culture. Everybody in the program needs to be on the same page as far as their team goals. Everybody needs to be willing to work hard, in the offseason and in-season, to achieve those goals. Everybody needs to have faith that doing those things will always give them a chance to win. When you add talent you always have a chance to win big.
You may not use the buzz words but you do need to have the right culture in place. You can't consistently win without it. At some schools it's easier to get that culture in then at others. At those schools you may not to need to make much of a conscious effort to set the culture. At others you may be working to go against the established cultures of the school and community. It's a lot harder there.
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Post by joelee on Mar 12, 2019 12:55:56 GMT -6
I kind of feel like Jgordon and breakerdog. Balance. Culture 30% Scheme 30% Talented players 30% 10% add in wherever needed for a particular team or situation from year to year.
People who think one area is more than 50% are doing a disservice to their program. That includes the guys who are sitting around waiting for talent to magically fall in their lap so they can win. That includes guys who make x and o's their main identity. And recently that includes the fast talking salesmen who think words win games. I will say that when I was young I used to wonder how the same teams won a lot and printed those shirts that said tradition never graduates. I used to wonder where great players came from and what made coaches great. Eventually I found out culture was the part I couldn't see and I had to get someone to teach it to me. I could see talent. I could see facilities. I couls see and study scheme back in the day by buying books and cd's. I couldn't see culture. I didn't know that THAT is what I didn't know. The Champions play offense ,defense ,and special teams. The champions have talent, schemes, and culture. The champions build teams mental toughness, physical skill, and free them up to perform at a high level. And by champions I don't mean those one off situations where a class comes in and wins one time and then things fall off or the IMG's of the world who aren't really playing hs football but are colleges playing against hs teams.
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Post by knightfan64 on Mar 12, 2019 13:11:18 GMT -6
I purchased the book, while I enjoyed it....seemed like a lot of stuff that I think is relative, I took some good ideas, but I coach at a school with 40-50 football players, not an athletic period, and not 3000 kids in it....I didn't enjoy the ton of anecdotal stories in it though, just being a critic there. I think at my level (small school) the jimmies and joes lead to more wins than anything......and wins lead to culture.....I think you need some studs to get anything going first just my opinion.
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Post by coachcb on Mar 12, 2019 13:32:36 GMT -6
I took an HC giig at a school with a struggling football program. I would certainly say we had a "culture" issue: the kids honestly didn't know kind of focus and work ethic it took to be a good football team. Now, our Xs and Os were simple and sound and we emphasized execution and fundamentals above all else. At the end of the day, the poor culture within of the program won out over our Xs and Os, fundamentals and execution. We fought against that poor culture (lack of discipline and focus, laziness, and general empathy) every single practice.
Yes, everything was simple and sound but it's difficult to get those ingrained in the kids when you're kicking kids off of the team for not showing up to practice, running them for being late, or tossing them to the sideline after being warned for walking through drills. We had a core of about 12 kids that loved football and would break their backs for us and had three kids that were all-conference. Past that, it was a revolving door as we were kicking cancerous kids off of the team or they were quitting after we ran them for showing up fifteen minutes late.
When you looked at the athleticism of that team, we should have been in the playoffs during both years I was there. Instead, we beat chitbird teams in our league, gave a few good teams a run for their money and banged our heads against the wall. And, it wasn't because we ran a grab-bag scheme or lacked an emphasis on fundamentals. It was because the culture of the program was garbage.
Culture only comes down to a few things: discipline and work ethic. It's not about the pep rallies, or the "rah-rah" crap. It's about showing up every day, doing the little things right, letting that snowball into doing the big things right and working hard through all of it.
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Post by canesfan on Mar 12, 2019 14:15:59 GMT -6
You better have both to be successful. In fact you need Strategy, Culture and talent. Not sure which is the most important. I’ve seen some great game plans lose because of culture or talent. And I’ve seen places with great culture and talent lose because of Xs and Os.
It’s unrealistic to think that you’ll always outscheme your opponent. It’s unrealistic to think that your culture makes your program top notch by itself. It’s unrealistic to think that talent alone is enough.
Strategy is necessary to win games. Culture is necessary to have the kids to win games. Culture builds roster sizes and gets kids invested in practice, weights, film. Talent determines whether or not you have a chance in a game.
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Post by bignose on Mar 12, 2019 14:32:45 GMT -6
You need to look up John Wooden's "Pyramid of Success"
No need to reinvent the wheel. Of 25 traits mentioned only one mentions skill.
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Post by The Lunch Pail on Mar 12, 2019 15:41:27 GMT -6
I think culture is extremely important to winning games. Culture is such a broad topic though.
I hate when I see terrible human beings who have a tendency of overlooking severe character flaws (i.e. Urban Meyer and Hugh Freeze) always going on about their “culture” around their program.
It’s always the horse thief who prays the loudest in church...
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Post by bobgoodman on Mar 12, 2019 18:15:07 GMT -6
I think it can fairly be seen that really bad culture defeats everything. As does really bad coaching or really bad talent. At the low end, all these things are factors. Only once they're all adequate do relative importances count for anything. I'd say anything above adequate in culture counts for nothing competitively.
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Post by 53 on Mar 12, 2019 18:45:46 GMT -6
Every program has a culture and identity.
I don’t really have an issues with it unless the coach is a hypocrite and doesn’t practice what he preaches.
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 12, 2019 19:57:42 GMT -6
Yes, you read that correctly. Scheme Defeats Culture. I am sure I will get criticized about this, and please understand I am not here to start World War III, merely a healthy discussion about all the 21st century buzz words that are being thrown around. Was reading another read about "Trust The Process", which got me to thinking...Why, why, why are we acting like culture matters on game night? Before you culture freaks go off, let me set something straight... 1. Yes I believe "culture" is important. For parents, admin, program, etc. Yes, you have to have some type of "rah-rah" within your program, some type of motto, something that your kids must believe sets them apart. That isn't what "culture" is. Not to those with a successful one.
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Post by 54695469 on Mar 12, 2019 20:09:37 GMT -6
Culture... Nah. Just be a coach. If you're a good coach, you don't need to worry about all that culture stuff. It takes care of itself.
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Post by 54695469 on Mar 12, 2019 20:11:58 GMT -6
I think culture is extremely important to winning games. Culture is such a broad topic though. I hate when I see terrible human beings who have a tendency of overlooking severe character flaws (i.e. Urban Meyer and Hugh Freeze) always going on about their “culture” around their program. It’s always the horse thief who prays the loudest in church... This. Too many "culture warriors" out there.
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 12, 2019 20:58:19 GMT -6
. However, I get so sick and tired of people using the word "culture" or "process", please just stop. Saw a guy tweet the other day, "I'm not afraid of your X's & O's, I fear your culture." To me, all of that sounds just awful. Maybe I am in the minority, but I have won alot more games game planning and making adjustments, than using the word culture at halftime. Have never won a state championship, but have coached in two of them, and here is what I noticed about those two teams... That isn't "culture". Buzz words and fiery half time speeches are not culture. THIS IS CULTURETHIS IS CULTURE THIS IS NOT CULTURE Last things first...you think it is a playcall issue? Or maybe a pad level issue? Or a strength issue? That said, As I have pointed out, your premise is faulty, because you are not using the appropriate sense of "culture" in these cases and then applying them to your scenarios/argument. As others have stated, culture includes: Your % of weight room attendance. Your % of practice attendance Your kids work ethic The accountability between Coaches and other coaches, Coaches and players and Players and other players. the importance of your program in the school and community. the degree of work ethic and competitive nature of your program. Obviously, all of these could either be good, or bad. As someone stated above, that is still your culture. I will go out on a limb and say all of your game planning, adjustments, and scheme would not yield successful results if the above bullet points were considered bad. Culture is NOT mottos, rah rah speeches, props etc. So, based on that definition of culture 1. No. You can't make ANY kid a leader, since some people are simply not natural born leaders. But that isn't culture. 2. Culture has nothing to do with thinking a team is the best program in the country. So No, obviously those records would not lead to a team believing they are the best program in the country. To your parenthetical point about x's and o's however, I am fairly certain I can find teams across the country running your exact x's and o's and going 0-10, 1-9, 2-8. 3. Absolutely, when one is using an appropriate definition of culture, and not just labeling culture as rah rah motto. Because if at kick off, your KO team is comprised of kids who have aspired to be Varsity players for you since they were 11/12 years old and haven't missed a work out or practice session in the 3 years they have been a part of your program, put in 100% effort in those workout and practice sessions and hold each other accountable to do their jobs...you are probably going to be OK.
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Post by Coach Huey on Mar 12, 2019 21:27:48 GMT -6
thoughts become words words become actions actions become character and character is everything
you win with character ... you lose with characters.
character (of a player, of a team) is culture
we all would agree that, in the end, high character teams/programs tend to win at a more consistent basis than low character teams. not an absolute, but when given the choice of having a team with high character over a low character team we all probably take the high character team. go further, given the choice of having an average talent high character team vs a high talent, low character team I will take the first. because, over time, the high character tends to create an environment of high achievers. whereas, the low character runs the risk of stumbling at the firs sign of adversity.
so, yes, culture/character does matter. but, so does your talent level. so does your schematic use of said talent. so does your game planning to utilize the scheme/talent vs your opponent. higher character teammates tend to allow for the game planning and schematic approach to take hold moreso than a lower character teammate.
flash in the pan team, maybe they win with low character individuals making up the greater portion of their contributors. but, highly unlikely that program wins consistently.
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