gm
Freshmen Member
Posts: 64
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Post by gm on Feb 3, 2019 12:58:50 GMT -6
Read this article below. Wonder what is on his list. Interested to hear what would be on people's list that are on this board.
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Post by 50slantstrong on Feb 3, 2019 15:38:20 GMT -6
I like it. I think every young serious coach should have to do it.
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Post by CS on Feb 3, 2019 15:52:07 GMT -6
I did this for 2 years before my first school decided we could afford hudl.
I call a better game these days because of those 2 years. I haven’t done it since and I probably should
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Post by wb on Feb 3, 2019 15:57:54 GMT -6
I have done that way for over twenty 29 years. It makes you look at the fine details of every position. My former high school coach showed me all my mistakes of the details. If I ever become a head coach again, I will definite make my assistants do it.
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 3, 2019 17:48:21 GMT -6
This is why I believe that coaches should actually draw scout cards (all 22) every play for team sessions in practice-- and not use technology to aid them with that.
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Post by bignose on Feb 3, 2019 18:19:40 GMT -6
At least they are padding off of film on their desktop computers! And they have multiple views of every play.
When I started out (early 1970s) I had to "paper scout" live on the fly during games on pre-printed scouting forms and then rewrite them after the game. I learned more about football from doing this than any other experience.
Film exchange? No way, film was too expensive and hard to come by!
Video tape changed that in the mid to late 1980s. Remember the bulky VHS cameras?
I got pretty good at this, confident enough that I could "scout in ink" no pencils. Lol
Hudl has spoiled an entire generation of younger coaches.
I still take written notes while watching Hudl and my reports indicate which video clip I am referring to figuring that a picture is worth 1,000 words.
On the High School level I am cognizant of the fact that you can produce "too much information" beyond what the staff and the kids can process and apply.
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 3, 2019 18:23:02 GMT -6
I am pretty certain that very few, if any here, do the level of detail that is being referred to in this article though. This is not just doing game scouting or charting.
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Post by tabs52 on Feb 3, 2019 18:29:57 GMT -6
I did it last year for our first opponent for this past upcoming season, the most invaluable item I pulled were the post snap movements. Being able to see how the played us and vice versa was a great assest, plan to do this year for each of our opponents who will be similar to last year
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gm
Freshmen Member
Posts: 64
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Post by gm on Feb 3, 2019 19:02:35 GMT -6
When I first started, we did everything on paper also. What things do you include when you "pad" games?
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Post by Defcord on Feb 3, 2019 19:21:55 GMT -6
I am pretty certain that very few, if any here, do the level of detail that is being referred to in this article though. This is not just doing game scouting or charting. Agreed. It makes me think about the first time I built a playbook. I thought I could do that in an hour or two and I was way wrong. This padding sounds like breaking down each game with the attention to detail that a full playbook requires. I am pretty thorough but I can’t imagine accomplishing what Belichick is asking as a full time teacher.
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 3, 2019 19:27:18 GMT -6
I am pretty certain that very few, if any here, do the level of detail that is being referred to in this article though. This is not just doing game scouting or charting. Agreed. It makes me think about the first time I built a playbook. I thought I could do that in an hour or two and I was way wrong. This padding sounds like breaking down each game with the attention to detail that a full playbook requires. I am pretty thorough but I can’t imagine accomplishing what Belichick is asking as a full time teacher. Agreed. Although I don't know if he is necessarily asking them to do that during game week prep, the article says it may take from 7 hours to several days. I seems like it is an assignment to develop and evaluate coaches more than gameplan.
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Post by silkyice on Feb 3, 2019 19:56:50 GMT -6
I am not going to pretend to know what Belichick makes them do.
But you write down everything! Offense, defense, personnel. Substitutions. Groupings. Hash. Yardline. Score. Down. Distance. Quarter. Time. Weather.
Draw the play with numbers not x and o’s. Where everyone exactly lines up including angle, stance, splits, eyes. Any tells. Any pre-snap movements. How the qb approches the snap. Where he is looking. Does he wipe his hand, etc. Where are the backs looking. Are the LB’s on their toes, on their heels.
Diagram the play and every detail. Rotation, coverage, slants, stunts, blitzes, movements. How they take on blocks. What are the LB’s keying. Blocking scheme, routes, fakes. Techniques.
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Post by bignose on Feb 3, 2019 19:57:10 GMT -6
When I paper scouted I tried to record and diagram the following info on the fly:
Offense
1. Down and Distance 2. Hash mark 3. Formation Diagram including backfield alignment, change in splits and alignments that might be tells. 4. Motion-dotted line 5. Player numbers-done on first series, plus any subs 6. QB RH or LH, good runner or not, throwing range and accuracy. Depth of drop and release time. Ball handling and play fakes. (might be a little side note-i.e. good fake) 7. Blocking scheme 8. Hole hit (ball carrier is shaded in) backs movements and actions (fakes, cuts) Type of play (draw, lead, dive tc.) 9. Receiver routes. dotted line indicating pass thrown 10. Defense alignment against them
Defense ( I did not diagram every defensive play, only the base look plus adjustments)
1. Alignment of front- middle of field, hash, short yardage. Odd or even set. (when I started we saw mostly 5-2 and a little 4-4) 2. Secondary alignment and reaction. inside or outside leverage? zone or man? 3. Personnel-who is weak, who should we avoid? 4. Blitz tendency 5. Slants and stunts 6. Short yardage front
Special Teams 1. Kickoff formation and depth- diagramed 2. Kickoff return -diagramed 3. Punt formation distance and hang time. diagramed. punter RF or LF? 4. Punt return. block of planned return? 5. P.A.T. kicked or not, protection, holder, kicker's range 6. P.A.T. block -overload side. are the outside covered for a fake?
Some of this info was diagrammed-offense every play. There would be a lot of running side notes on each play that I would have to go back and make sense of and then consolidate after the game.
It is a heck of a lot easier to get tells from film, but you miss a lot as well. I prefer to arrive early and watch warmups if possible. The playing field back then was level, much like it is now with Hudl. Every body had to paper scout if they wanted to win.
When video cameras first came out there were haves and have nots due to the expense of the equipment. And for a while it was illegal to video a scout game without permission.
God forbid if it rained! (clipboards in plastic bags and lots of extra pencils-ink ran when wet!
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Post by jgordon1 on Feb 3, 2019 20:30:50 GMT -6
I have broken down my fair share of film w an actual projector but never in that detail. sure wish we had HUDL back then
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Post by wingtol on Feb 4, 2019 15:01:42 GMT -6
I saw McCown talking about this and he said it's like 10-20 minutes to draw the play and they want things like which way did the qb turn his head before the snap, how were the feet of everyone on offense in their stance, etc... So sounds like a very detailed deal.
When I started coaching the HC wanted us to paper scout the games live while someone else filmed. Learned a lot doing that no doubt about it. And yes doing it in the rain was the worst.
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Post by morris on Feb 4, 2019 19:37:56 GMT -6
I would guess what they pad is close to Belichick’s father’s book on scouting.
I did this every season until this past year. I plan on doing it this off-season. I enjoy it. I used to really enjoy scouting live. One thing about padding it helps you see what is there and not what you think you see. I definitely was able to watch film better when I padded games.
Anyone ever padded on graph paper? I don’t think it would be very cost effective or space saving. Drawing plays on graph paper it appears was a thing at one point in time to show spacing accurately. There was a template you could by that helped draw football diagrams to scale.
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Post by carookie on Feb 4, 2019 20:06:46 GMT -6
I did this for 2 years before my first school decided we could afford hudl. I call a better game these days because of those 2 years. I haven’t done it since and I probably should My first year as a varsity DC was in the early days of HUDL, when HUDL would basically go down every Saturday for like 5 hours. Well one Saturday we had an upcoming Thursday state game of the week against a long established power (we were the new up-and-coming school) when...HUDL goes down. I sat there and broke down all their games by hand just like this- and we had our best defensive performance of the year. Shut them down, and I felt like I knew was coming every play.
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Post by buckeye7525 on Feb 4, 2019 20:19:51 GMT -6
I've done this before as part of our off-season self scout offensively. Really did learn quite a bit in the process on how defenses were playing us, then promptly 1/2 of those teams ended up changing their defense for the next year, so.... This year I'm drawing it up again but I'm not probably putting quite as much detail before, I'm just drawing them on an 8 box. I will say that when I just take notes and draw things up like that learn a whole lot more about the opponent. This year I got so caught up in tagging stuff on film I never really felt like I knew "who" we were playing. morris I've thought about doing that as well. Just as an FYI instead of buying actual graph paper you can get "free" graph paper online. If you have access to a school printer you can just make a ton of copies of it instead.
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Post by WTR on Feb 4, 2019 20:22:55 GMT -6
My first 7 or 8 years coaching in the early 2000s there was no hudl. I was a young DC and charted every play off VHS scout films onto a yellow legal pad. There's no doubt Im a better coach now for having done that. My HC then was an old school coach that was towards the end of his career. He mentored me the right way. Still talk to him regularly.
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Post by silkyice on Feb 4, 2019 20:42:39 GMT -6
I’m not quite sure how padding and hudl have been sort of compared as the same.
Live, 8mm projector, VHS, DVD (worst format of all), hard drive laptop, and now cloud based hudl are ways to WATCH a game.
Sure you can also input data in Hudl. You could also do that Digital Scout, ProScout, Excel, etc.
Padding is detailed studying of individual plays.
Point being, pad or don’t pad. Do whatever detail you want or don’t want. Hudl has nothing to do with it other than making it easier to watch.
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Post by s73 on Feb 4, 2019 21:38:11 GMT -6
I’m not quite sure how padding and hudl have been sort of compared as the same. Live, 8mm projector, VHS, DVD (worst format of all), hard drive laptop, and now cloud based hudl are ways to WATCH a game. Sure you can also input data in Hudl. You could also do that Digital Scout, ProScout, Excel, etc. Padding is detailed studying of individual plays. Point being, pad or don’t pad. Do whatever detail you want or don’t want. Hudl has nothing to do with it other than making it easier to watch. Maybe I'm missing something but since you can annotate on hudl can't you write all types of detail on every clip & accomplish similar outcome? Or is the drawing of the play considered to be part of the exercise?
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Post by silkyice on Feb 4, 2019 22:20:42 GMT -6
I’m not quite sure how padding and hudl have been sort of compared as the same. Live, 8mm projector, VHS, DVD (worst format of all), hard drive laptop, and now cloud based hudl are ways to WATCH a game. Sure you can also input data in Hudl. You could also do that Digital Scout, ProScout, Excel, etc. Padding is detailed studying of individual plays. Point being, pad or don’t pad. Do whatever detail you want or don’t want. Hudl has nothing to do with it other than making it easier to watch. Maybe I'm missing something but since you can annotate on hudl can't you write all types of detail on every clip & accomplish similar outcome? Or is the drawing of the play considered to be part of the exercise? Drawing the play is a major part.
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Post by dubber on Feb 5, 2019 5:23:44 GMT -6
Something happens on the brain that helps you remember stuff better when you write it versus a keystroke.
It always amazes me all the open laptops at a presentation at a conference......sure you are collecting the information the same, but you are not internalizing it the same.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2019 5:32:43 GMT -6
I think the results he gets speak for themself, its just a more detailed form of "watch a lot of film, take a lot of notes"
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Post by bluboy on Feb 5, 2019 6:43:47 GMT -6
"Something happens on the brain that helps you remember stuff better when you write it versus a keystroke." I agree 100%.
I'm an old timer who cut his teeth on pencil/paper scouting at games and 8 mm projectors. I like the ease of HUDL and Excel, but find myself still writing things down on legal pads. I'll use HUDL/Excel to sort info, but I'll make lists rather than print reports. I feel that I get a better picture when I write stuff down; it's not simply statistics or key strokes. Hey, you can't teach a dinosaur new tricks.....
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CoachSP
Sophomore Member
Posts: 212
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Post by CoachSP on Feb 5, 2019 7:22:30 GMT -6
All of a sudden, everyone is Belichick. If I had to go into this much detail for high school athletics, I'd find something else to do.
This level of detail in professional football makes sense, I guess.
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Post by The Lunch Pail on Feb 5, 2019 7:43:42 GMT -6
"Something happens on the brain that helps you remember stuff better when you write it versus a keystroke." I agree 100%. I'm an old timer who cut his teeth on pencil/paper scouting at games and 8 mm projectors. I like the ease of HUDL and Excel, but find myself still writing things down on legal pads. I'll use HUDL/Excel to sort info, but I'll make lists rather than print reports. I feel that I get a better picture when I write stuff down; it's not simply statistics or key strokes. Hey, you can't teach a dinosaur new tricks..... I have always been a “write it down” guy, and I’m in my 20’s. It’s not an age thing IMO When I played in HS, I strictly remember looking for hudl highlights of the team we were about to play (we didn’t have a team hudl) and diagramming every single play they ran both offensively and defensively. When I used to work the “snack shack” concession stands during lunch for marketing class, I’d find playbooks on footballxos.com and just jot them down word for word for fun. That’s when I learned that I really wanted to coach.
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Post by coachwoodall on Feb 5, 2019 8:09:52 GMT -6
There is some brain science in play here on a couple different levels. The pathways to memories/remembering are reinforced when you create different routes to the same location within in the brain. It goes beyond being a visual/auditory/etc... learner.
Regardless of which way you learn best, the more connections you make the better/easier it is to recall that piece of information. Also, by reinforcing that particular piece of information in multiple ways, you will gain a greater level of understanding. Another thing in play is the level of depth in examining that item; how deeply you examine it.
If I am trying to learn what an elephant is and you are teaching that me. I can learn by seeing a picture listening to you describe it touching an elephant smelling an elephant hearing an elephant
If also you describe the elephant to me, and I can take notes; writing the notes by hand, typing on a keyboard, or drawing the description as a picture will be unique/individual pathways to the 'elephant' in my brain.
Also in play, especially in the game of football with 22 moving parts played on a plane that is 53 1/3 yards by 120 yards, is spatial reasoning. If I just see a diagram for an elephant without standing next to a real live elephant, or at least seeing a picture of man standing next to an elephant, then I am not able to get a real sense of the enomity of an elephant.
By being detailed in OL splits, WR alignment, direction of a foot, which way the QB looks presnap, etc..... helps to develop the spacial reasoning to recognize the 'tells' for a play/formation/player/etc...
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CoachSP
Sophomore Member
Posts: 212
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Post by CoachSP on Feb 5, 2019 8:11:09 GMT -6
All of a sudden, everyone is Belichick. If I had to go into this much detail for high school athletics, I'd find something else to do. This level of detail in professional football makes sense, I guess. I don't think its about scouting or info you are giving players, and in fact that is nowhere in the article Don't know where I implied anything about scouting or players. From the article, I gather this is his way of coaching coaches. All I'm saying is MY idea of "coaching coaches" (in high school) is not putting them in front of the film and telling them to draw every time the QB scratches his nose. Keep in mind BB's competition vs. the competition we face in the high school game. New coaches need to be trained. Belichick's way of doing it just isn't my style. Honestly, part of that is because I'm not "new" to the high school game anymore. How I learn new things and teach myself the game now is much different than it was when I was a rookie. If I worked on a higher level and was new to it, then I would probably need that education. Just my opinion.
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Post by silkyice on Feb 5, 2019 8:16:43 GMT -6
All of a sudden, everyone is Belichick. If I had to go into this much detail for high school athletics, I'd find something else to do. This level of detail in professional football makes sense, I guess. I am sorry if I gave anyone the wrong impression. I’m not padding any games now. I have during the off season season before as an exercise. I think the experience and what you gain from that experience is what counts more than anything. Here is just a minor example. Some coaches who read this will say, “no joke.” Some will say, “wow, I have never thought of that.” And I am sure there is some detail that I would have that reaction to also. Still learning. Minor example When you pad, you need to be precise with line splits. Most teams have about the same splits. Some teams adjust. But if you are a guy who played DB his whole life and now is all the sudden a DC, you might have never thought about line splits. So you play this team. And their line splits are abnormal (either very wide or no splits). You don’t notice. Because are more worried about their pass routes or what they call on 3rd and medium. So your scout team lines up all week with normal splits. You get in the game, and stuff just doesn’t fit the way it should. Maybe there is too much space for the LB to fill on iso because they have wide splits. Maybe the DE is one step away from the QB everytime instead of getting there on a pass. Or maybe they have tight splits and your blitzes are getting through or you didn’t realize your front 7 or 8 would be so compressed that their is too much grass outside, so sweep or passes to the flats are working. Once you really pad some games, you quit missing these details. Not saying you have to pad to get all this or that you have to pad each game to see this, just an example. Flip the script. You were an o lineman your whole life and are now DC. You didn’t realize the effect wide receiver splits would have. Padding is different from tendencies and analytics also. While it can reveal tells and tendencies, that is really not the purpose. It is about learning the game. The personnel. The techniques. The tactics. The details. The more you do it or learn to focus on those things, the more you naturally see it. Lose a game because you didn’t have your scout team line up with appropriate splits. See it again in three years. Bad coaches - won’t notice. Good coaches - a freaking alarm bell goes off in their head.
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