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Post by carookie on Nov 20, 2018 18:26:23 GMT -6
I know a coach, buddy of mine, who put in the following play for a playoff game:
Tackle quickly comes off the field after a play and extra TE comes in (they look similar); TE lines up in the OT's spot in a 3 pt but covered up by the SE. Shift the SE over to the opposite side, a couple extra motions, snap the ball and then hit the TE/OT on an out route (hopefully uncovered).
This coach showed me the play and I pointed out to him how it technically was illegal as you have to have 5 ineligible numbers out there; he responded by showing me their home jerseys and how the numbers blended in well with the main color so nobody would really be able to tell.
Now my question is less about that specific play but in general; where do you draw the line between gamesmanship and cheating? I know a number of coaches who teach a blocking technique that technically is holding, yet I doubt anyone would get up in arms for that. I have also seen films of teams sneaking a receiver onto the field after the snap behind the defense and having him catch a pass, I think most of us would consider that cheating.
So is there a specific variable that differentiates the two? A certain level of deception that can be pointed to? Is it just something that you know it when you see it? Or is it like running up the score- its the refs job to throw the flag and stop me- so all is fair?
I get this is a fairly ambiguous thread, so examples may help.
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Post by bigmoot on Nov 20, 2018 19:54:46 GMT -6
Intentionally violating the rules is cheating. End of discussion.
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Post by Defcord on Nov 20, 2018 20:30:08 GMT -6
Intentionally violating the rules is cheating. End of discussion. I liked this but if we are on goal line defense and our dbs get bad leverage in man we teach them to interfere with the receiver because we would rather have the half the distance penalty than give up an easy route for an easy td so not sure if that falls into cheating. The above situation feels different. Seems too risky for me and too much movement. Most of the time you can just hide the TE in a legal formation the defense isn’t used to seeing and run some sort of dump route since many high school lbs are going to spot drop or be late to get there in man. Our oc must’ve called a te dump pass in over half our games for crucial conversions and was successful every time. The op situation might not get called back ever but if it converts big and does get called back then that’s completely avoidable, which I couldn’t live with.
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Post by 19delta on Nov 20, 2018 20:36:14 GMT -6
carookieThe play your buddy drew up is not "technically" illegal. It is illegal, period and he should be shamed and ridiculued if he ever tries to run it.
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Post by carookie on Nov 20, 2018 20:54:12 GMT -6
Intentionally violating the rules is cheating. End of discussion. What about intentionally letting the play clock run out and taking a delay of game penalty? If that is okay, then where do we draw the line?
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Post by 60zgo on Nov 20, 2018 21:10:25 GMT -6
I know a coach, buddy of mine, who put in the following play for a playoff game: Tackle quickly comes off the field after a play and extra TE comes in (they look similar); TE lines up in the OT's spot in a 3 pt but covered up by the SE. Shift the SE over to the opposite side, a couple extra motions, snap the ball and then hit the TE/OT on an out route (hopefully uncovered). This coach showed me the play and I pointed out to him how it technically was illegal as you have to have 5 ineligible numbers out there; he responded by showing me their home jerseys and how the numbers blended in well with the main color so nobody would really be able to tell. Now my question is less about that specific play but in general; where do you draw the line between gamesmanship and cheating? I know a number of coaches who teach a blocking technique that technically is holding, yet I doubt anyone would get up in arms for that. I have also seen films of teams sneaking a receiver onto the field after the snap behind the defense and having him catch a pass, I think most of us would consider that cheating. So is there a specific variable that differentiates the two? A certain level of deception that can be pointed to? Is it just something that you know it when you see it? Or is it like running up the score- its the refs job to throw the flag and stop me- so all is fair? I get this is a fairly ambiguous thread, so examples may help. Totally against the rules... But I like where this thread is going. I have been accused of doing some pretty sketch stuff over the years.
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Post by bigmoot on Nov 20, 2018 21:16:16 GMT -6
Intentionally violating the rules is cheating. End of discussion. What about intentionally letting the play clock run out and taking a delay of game penalty? If that is okay, then where do we draw the line? See your point. Can of worms msy have been opened with this thread. Question for the masses...what is cheating?
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Post by 60zgo on Nov 20, 2018 21:28:59 GMT -6
Intentionally violating the rules is cheating. End of discussion. What about intentionally letting the play clock run out and taking a delay of game penalty? If that is okay, then where do we draw the line? Guilty... We do it all the time. Especially in punting situations.
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Post by carookie on Nov 20, 2018 21:42:47 GMT -6
What about intentionally letting the play clock run out and taking a delay of game penalty? If that is okay, then where do we draw the line? See your point. Can of worms msy have been opened with this thread. Question for the masses...what is cheating? FWIW, I was totally against the original topic, but it wasnt my team or call. There are just a lot of gray areas I have seen people live in and am wondering where the unwritten rules lie
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Post by gccwolverine on Nov 20, 2018 22:02:19 GMT -6
We teach out LBers and SS types to cut the legs of OL coming to kick them out. It's a rule violation, I know it is, IDC tell them you cut them down and spill the ball until we get flagged if we get flagged from there on we have to take it on standing up to spill it. It's what's best for our kids and it's what's best for undersized LB's and SS's who are being kicked out by OL's they are giving 80 pounds up too.
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Post by CoachPut on Nov 20, 2018 22:12:42 GMT -6
Intentionally violating the rules is cheating. End of discussion. What about intentionally letting the play clock run out and taking a delay of game penalty? If that is okay, then where do we draw the line? This comes with a penalty. Not on the same tier as cheating.
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Post by silkyice on Nov 20, 2018 22:21:41 GMT -6
Intentionally violating the rules is cheating. End of discussion. I liked this but if we are on goal line defense and our dbs get bad leverage in man we teach them to interfere with the receiver because we would rather have the half the distance penalty than give up an easy route for an easy td so not sure if that falls into cheating. The above situation feels different. Seems too risky for me and too much movement. Most of the time you can just hide the TE in a legal formation the defense isn’t used to seeing and run some sort of dump route since many high school lbs are going to spot drop or be late to get there in man. Our oc must’ve called a te dump pass in over half our games for crucial conversions and was successful every time. The op situation might not get called back ever but if it converts big and does get called back then that’s completely avoidable, which I couldn’t live with. The pass interference is different. You are willing to take the penalty. You are not trying to “not get caught” or “get away with something” or “fool the refs”.
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Post by carookie on Nov 20, 2018 22:53:06 GMT -6
What about intentionally letting the play clock run out and taking a delay of game penalty? If that is okay, then where do we draw the line? This comes with a penalty. Not on the same tier as cheating. There is a penalty too if you have a player run in off the sideline after the snap to catch a pass behind the defense. There is a penalty too if you intentionally hold while your punter runs out the clock. And I imagine there is a penalty for violating rule 7-2-5 which states "On the first three downs, you can only have one interior lineman, the long snapper, wear an eligible jersey number. At least four others must wear ineligible numbers. " This was the one I mentioned initially.
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Post by carookie on Nov 20, 2018 22:58:51 GMT -6
I liked this but if we are on goal line defense and our dbs get bad leverage in man we teach them to interfere with the receiver because we would rather have the half the distance penalty than give up an easy route for an easy td so not sure if that falls into cheating. The above situation feels different. Seems too risky for me and too much movement. Most of the time you can just hide the TE in a legal formation the defense isn’t used to seeing and run some sort of dump route since many high school lbs are going to spot drop or be late to get there in man. Our oc must’ve called a te dump pass in over half our games for crucial conversions and was successful every time. The op situation might not get called back ever but if it converts big and does get called back then that’s completely avoidable, which I couldn’t live with. The pass interference is different. You are willing to take the penalty. You are not trying to “not get caught” or “get away with something” or “fool the refs”. What about coaches who teach the O-Line to lock on to the DL's breast plate and get close to the while doing so, so it doesn't get called. Its still technically holding being taught, but they are being taught to do so in a way that they do "not get caught". I have seen similar type tactics taught for receivers to get separation when running a route- technically OPI but taught in a way that they can fool the refs?
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Post by coachphillip on Nov 20, 2018 23:01:05 GMT -6
This comes with a penalty. Not on the same tier as cheating. There is a penalty too if you have a player run in off the sideline after the snap to catch a pass behind the defense. There is a penalty too if you intentionally hold while your punter runs out the clock. And I imagine there is a penalty for violating rule 7-2-5 which states "On the first three downs, you can only have one interior lineman, the long snapper, wear an eligible jersey number. At least four others must wear ineligible numbers. " This was the one I mentioned initially. I think the difference with the Defensive PI is that you’re essentially trading one consequence for another rather than trying to get one by the refs in hopes of not receiving any consequences at all.
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Post by CoachPut on Nov 20, 2018 23:12:25 GMT -6
The pass interference is different. You are willing to take the penalty. You are not trying to “not get caught” or “get away with something” or “fool the refs”. What about coaches who teach the O-Line to lock on to the DL's breast plate and get close to the while doing so, so it doesn't get called. Its still technically holding being taught, but they are being taught to do so in a way that they do "not get caught". I have seen similar type tactics taught for receivers to get separation when running a route- technically OPI but taught in a way that they can fool the refs? Locking onto the breast plate between the offensive and defensive frame of body is not holding. Once the hand are outside either the offensive or defensive frame of body (either outstretch to the side or hooking under the shoulder pad for example) Then you have holding. If you give me your chest I will lock onto that breat plate and drive you like a steering wheel. 100% legal as long as it is between the frame of the body.
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Post by carookie on Nov 20, 2018 23:37:52 GMT -6
What about coaches who teach the O-Line to lock on to the DL's breast plate and get close to the while doing so, so it doesn't get called. Its still technically holding being taught, but they are being taught to do so in a way that they do "not get caught". I have seen similar type tactics taught for receivers to get separation when running a route- technically OPI but taught in a way that they can fool the refs? Locking onto the breast plate between the offensive and defensive frame of body is not holding. Once the hand are outside either the offensive or defensive frame of body (either outstretch to the side or hooking under the shoulder pad for example) Then you have holding. If you give me your chest I will lock onto that breat plate and drive you like a steering wheel. 100% legal as long as it is between the frame of the body. I could be mistaken, and I don't want this to turn in a question of semantics, but I always thought the rule was, "The hand(s) and arm(s) shall not be used to grasp, pull, hook, clamp or encircle in any way that illegally impedes or illegally obstructs an opponent." Locking on to the breast plate would be just that. I have worked with a number of coaches who have assumed that was the rule and taught that as long as you are close enough the refs won't see it/call it. So it is okay. And thats the question at hand.
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Post by 19delta on Nov 21, 2018 0:13:26 GMT -6
This comes with a penalty. Not on the same tier as cheating. There is a penalty too if you have a player run in off the sideline after the snap to catch a pass behind the defense. There is a penalty too if you intentionally hold while your punter runs out the clock. And I imagine there is a penalty for violating rule 7-2-5 which states "On the first three downs, you can only have one interior lineman, the long snapper, wear an eligible jersey number. At least four others must wear ineligible numbers. " This was the one I mentioned initially. No. There is a clear line between taking an action that you know will result in a penalty being called (letting the clock run down) and trying to get away with something that is clearly against the rules. That is the difference between gamesmanship and making a mockery of the game
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Post by 19delta on Nov 21, 2018 0:16:49 GMT -6
We teach out LBers and SS types to cut the legs of OL coming to kick them out. It's a rule violation, I know it is, IDC tell them you cut them down and spill the ball until we get flagged if we get flagged from there on we have to take it on standing up to spill it. It's what's best for our kids and it's what's best for undersized LB's and SS's who are being kicked out by OL's they are giving 80 pounds up too. I didn't know that was against the rules. What rule are you defensive players breaking? I'm not being an a$$. I honestly don't know.
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Post by 44dlcoach on Nov 21, 2018 1:36:40 GMT -6
We teach out LBers and SS types to cut the legs of OL coming to kick them out. It's a rule violation, I know it is, IDC tell them you cut them down and spill the ball until we get flagged if we get flagged from there on we have to take it on standing up to spill it. It's what's best for our kids and it's what's best for undersized LB's and SS's who are being kicked out by OL's they are giving 80 pounds up too. I didn't know that was against the rules. What rule are you defensive players breaking? I'm not being an a$$. I honestly don't know. Cant block below the waist unless both players,and the ball, are still in the Free blocking zone.
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Post by gccwolverine on Nov 21, 2018 1:56:04 GMT -6
I didn't know that was against the rules. What rule are you defensive players breaking? I'm not being an a$$. I honestly don't know. Cant block below the waist unless both players,and the ball, are still in the Free blocking zone. 1. I think its a terrible rule 2. Idk what else to tell a kid whose giving 80 pounds up to a kid coming to try and knock hi head off and I cant sit there with a straight fface and tell him to take it on standing up and wrong arm it 3. Sometimes its not called So we're going to cut his ass down until the officials actually show us they are willing to make that call.
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Post by 19delta on Nov 21, 2018 5:30:07 GMT -6
I didn't know that was against the rules. What rule are you defensive players breaking? I'm not being an a$$. I honestly don't know. Cant block below the waist unless both players,and the ball, are still in the Free blocking zone. That is good to know. I honestly thought that only applied to offensive players.
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Post by CS on Nov 21, 2018 5:38:20 GMT -6
We teach out LBers and SS types to cut the legs of OL coming to kick them out. It's a rule violation, I know it is, IDC tell them you cut them down and spill the ball until we get flagged if we get flagged from there on we have to take it on standing up to spill it. It's what's best for our kids and it's what's best for undersized LB's and SS's who are being kicked out by OL's they are giving 80 pounds up too. We did it all year and never got flagged until the second round of the playoffs. I will say I think it’s a bullchit rule if they are in the free blocking zone
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Post by 19delta on Nov 21, 2018 5:56:37 GMT -6
Cant block below the waist unless both players,and the ball, are still in the Free blocking zone. 1. I think its a terrible rule 2. Idk what else to tell a kid whose giving 80 pounds up to a kid coming to try and knock hi head off and I cant sit there with a straight fface and tell him to take it on standing up and wrong arm it 3. Sometimes its not called So we're going to cut his ass down until the officials actually show us they are willing to make that call. I get that. But it is still poor sportsmanship and cheating, regardless of how or why you justify it. In your defense, it highlights the problem with having bad rules: They don't get enforced. Not any different than the RPO. How many times should flags be thrown for an illegal player being downfield? Often. But it seldom gets enforced. And that lack of enforcement encourages coaches with a highly flexible definition of sportsmanship to get away with stuff that is clearly against the rules.
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Post by fantom on Nov 21, 2018 6:16:15 GMT -6
Cant block below the waist unless both players,and the ball, are still in the Free blocking zone. 1. I think its a terrible rule 2. Idk what else to tell a kid whose giving 80 pounds up to a kid coming to try and knock hi head off and I cant sit there with a straight fface and tell him to take it on standing up and wrong arm it 3. Sometimes its not called So we're going to cut his ass down until the officials actually show us they are willing to make that call. Since you're threatening my player's health, by cutting him when he has no reason to think that he should be cut, I'm teaching my guy to land with his full weight on your guy. Personally, if it was me, I'd land with something sharp, like a knee or elbow but it wouldn't be ethical to teach that.
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Post by Defcord on Nov 21, 2018 6:43:33 GMT -6
1. I think its a terrible rule 2. Idk what else to tell a kid whose giving 80 pounds up to a kid coming to try and knock hi head off and I cant sit there with a straight fface and tell him to take it on standing up and wrong arm it 3. Sometimes its not called So we're going to cut his ass down until the officials actually show us they are willing to make that call. Since you're threatening my player's health, by cutting him when he has no reason to think that he should be cut, I'm teaching my guy to land with his full weight on your guy. Personally, if it was me, I'd land with something sharp, like a knee or elbow but it wouldn't be ethical to teach that. I coached a NASTY center once. We were a pretty good double wing team. About the third game into the season the defensive line started cutting our offensive line. After the first drive, our offense came off of the field and one of our guards was freaking out because he got cut. Our center looked at him and goes "Just step on his effing neck and he will stop doing it!" and walked away. I know it's legal in this case but this dude never got cut after a couple plays into a game because he just wasn't going to allow it. I don't like the idea of our kid stepping on some other kid intentionally but this kid grew up with 5 brothers so getting cut wasn't an issue for him.
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 21, 2018 6:55:29 GMT -6
We teach out LBers and SS types to cut the legs of OL coming to kick them out. It's a rule violation, I know it is, IDC tell them you cut them down and spill the ball until we get flagged if we get flagged from there on we have to take it on standing up to spill it. It's what's best for our kids and it's what's best for undersized LB's and SS's who are being kicked out by OL's they are giving 80 pounds up too. I didn't know that was against the rules. What rule are you defensive players breaking? I'm not being an a$$. I honestly don't know. Wow. I have to say I am a little surprised considering the amount of time you visit this board, and the amount of times it has been discussed. Of course, about 3 weeks ago I discovered that my flag belts (for flag football/flag tag etc. ) are adjustable after only 11 years of using them in my elementary PE classes. So I think win this round of "Ooops".
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Post by coachlesko on Nov 21, 2018 7:12:12 GMT -6
In your defense, it highlights the problem with having bad rules: They don't get enforced. Not any different than the RPO. How many times should flags be thrown for an illegal player being downfield? Often. But it seldom gets enforced. And that lack of enforcement encourages coaches with a highly flexible definition of sportsmanship to get away with stuff that is clearly against the rules. The recent surge of RPOs and the resulting illegal man downfield issue is a great example for the OPs initial question; its a very grey area and is honestly, nearly impossible for referees to get right all the time without missing something else. I personally get the sense that those guys who run RPOs and KNOW that the play will probably result in illegal men downfield but say "make them call it" are probably beginning to cross the line from gamesmanship to cheating. They know they are probably doing something against the rules but since there is a penalty associated with it, they want to put the responsibility on the refs to call it rather than on themselves to keep their players within the spirit of sportsmanship themselves. However, there are sometimes when an illegal man downfield is an honest mistake: broken play, bad design, etc. It really comes down to intent, and that really isn't able to be "policed" by the men in stripes.
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Post by coachcb on Nov 21, 2018 7:40:52 GMT -6
Yup, that coach cheated. And, we cheat every time I teach an OL/TE/H-back to grab a hold of the breast plate or when I teach a DB to interfere with a WR to keep from giving up a big play/score. Our OL was WAY down field on several RPOs last year, we knew it and we kept calling the play because we didn't get called.
So, from a pragmatic perspective, there's no moral high ground here. We've all done things in the name of "gamesmanship" and chances are good that we'll keep doing them until we nailed for it.
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Post by 19delta on Nov 21, 2018 9:56:53 GMT -6
I didn't know that was against the rules. What rule are you defensive players breaking? I'm not being an a$$. I honestly don't know. Wow. I have to say I am a little surprised considering the amount of time you visit this board, and the amount of times it has been discussed. Of course, about 3 weeks ago I discovered that my flag belts (for flag football/flag tag etc. ) are adjustable after only 11 years of using them in my elementary PE classes. So I think win this round of "Ooops". Meh. I haven't coached high school football since 2009. I mostly stick the strength and conditioning forums.
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