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Post by newhope on Sept 23, 2018 12:11:09 GMT -6
In NC, the powers that be decided they would institute a new rule in which there would be zero toloerance for any type of profanity. Mind you, we're not talking about cursing an official or an opponent. We're also not talking about a 15 yard penalty. Any coach or player who uses any profanity will be ejected and miss the next game.
Our best athlete caught a pass and fumbled going into the end zone on the first drive of a game. He used the f word and got tossed. Missed the next game as well. If he should make the mistake of using profanity again during football or basketball season, he will not be able to play any sport for 365 days. He'd be just as well off to punch someone, the punishment would not be worse.
Friday night, our DC says to me "they're f'ing punching us in the pile". The official is near enough to hear him say it--to me, not to anyone else--and tosses him.
There are no warnings. No penalties first. Ejection.
Of course, to add to it, it's not enforced uniformly. Some officials enforce it. Others don't. Some warn. Others don't.
We are now to the point that the main things our officials are instructed to watch out for is a coach standing too close to the sideline or someone using a curse word--as if their jobs weren't tough enough already.
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Post by NC1974 on Sept 23, 2018 12:41:58 GMT -6
I like the idea of holding coaches and kids accountable but this seems way overboard. I believe for us, bad language can result in an unsportsmanlike...that to me seems reasonable, but getting tossed? And then isn't there a lot of room for interpretation on this rule? Do they have a list of profane language or is it up to the officials to discern tone and intent of something that was said? Just as an example, the word "suck" could be used in fairly benign ways or extremely profane ways depending on context. Seems like a can of worms to me.
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 23, 2018 13:00:25 GMT -6
In a semi serious, semi jest post, if you have someone with tourettes I would have them sue based on ADA discrimination claims. Heck you could probably do the same if any of your players have a bip.
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Post by blb on Sept 23, 2018 13:09:01 GMT -6
newhope I'm not in favor of using profanity ("Potty Mouth" to kids) or losing one's poise in the heat of battle, players or coaches. Or even at practice for that matter. HS sports are supposed to be educational. I do think ejection and suspension for part of next game is extreme. But that is also one of those things you have to coach against - like any other penalty.
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Post by nicku on Sept 23, 2018 13:33:37 GMT -6
As long as they can't hear the booth!
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Post by Defcord on Sept 23, 2018 15:53:02 GMT -6
Sounds like bulllshit to me...
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Post by newhope on Sept 24, 2018 7:38:51 GMT -6
I like the idea of holding coaches and kids accountable but this seems way overboard. I believe for us, bad language can result in an unsportsmanlike...that to me seems reasonable, but getting tossed? And then isn't there a lot of room for interpretation on this rule? Do they have a list of profane language or is it up to the officials to discern tone and intent of something that was said? Just as an example, the word "suck" could be used in fairly benign ways or extremely profane ways depending on context. Seems like a can of worms to me. I have no problem with being held accountable or a 15 yd penalty. As it was explained to us by officials, tone and intent have nothing to do with it. You say it, you're tossed.
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Post by Defcord on Sept 24, 2018 8:12:21 GMT -6
I like the idea of holding coaches and kids accountable but this seems way overboard. I believe for us, bad language can result in an unsportsmanlike...that to me seems reasonable, but getting tossed? And then isn't there a lot of room for interpretation on this rule? Do they have a list of profane language or is it up to the officials to discern tone and intent of something that was said? Just as an example, the word "suck" could be used in fairly benign ways or extremely profane ways depending on context. Seems like a can of worms to me. I have no problem with being held accountable or a 15 yd penalty. As it was explained to us by officials, tone and intent have nothing to do with it. You say it, you're tossed. What is considered profanity? Do they give you a list of words?
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Post by coachcb on Sept 24, 2018 8:35:27 GMT -6
newhope I'm not in favor of using profanity ("Potty Mouth" to kids) or losing one's poise in the heat of battle, players or coaches. Or even at practice for that matter. HS sports are supposed to be educational. I do think ejection and suspension for part of next game is extreme. But that is also one of those things you have to coach against - like any other penalty. Agreed. A kid in my one of my classes ended up with two write-ups and a day of in-school suspension for swearing in class within the first two weeks in school. We're just as hard on the kids for swearing during practice as they have to understand that it's not acceptable in the real world. The kid I wrote up was furious until I told him "You let loose with an f-bomb twice in class and you get ISS, I let do that twice and I end up fired." I do believe that the ejections and suspensions are over the top but it is what it is.
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Post by newhope on Sept 24, 2018 9:19:37 GMT -6
I have no problem with being held accountable or a 15 yd penalty. As it was explained to us by officials, tone and intent have nothing to do with it. You say it, you're tossed. What is considered profanity? Do they give you a list of words? Nope. We were told by officials at our scrimmage it was at their discretion.
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Post by blb on Sept 24, 2018 9:23:06 GMT -6
What is considered profanity? Do they give you a list of words? Nope. We were told by officials at our scrimmage it was at their discretion.
To paraphrase a Supreme Court justice on pornography,
"I can't define profanity, but I know it when I hear it!"
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Post by gccwolverine on Sept 24, 2018 10:48:29 GMT -6
newhope I'm not in favor of using profanity ("Potty Mouth" to kids) or losing one's poise in the heat of battle, players or coaches. Or even at practice for that matter. HS sports are supposed to be educational. I do think ejection and suspension for part of next game is extreme. But that is also one of those things you have to coach against - like any other penalty. Agreed. A kid in my one of my classes ended up with two write-ups and a day of in-school suspension for swearing in class within the first two weeks in school. We're just as hard on the kids for swearing during practice as they have to understand that it's not acceptable in the real world. The kid I wrote up was furious until I told him "You let loose with an f-bomb twice in class and you get ISS, I let do that twice and I end up fired." I do believe that the ejections and suspensions are over the top but it is what it is. Yes..... No one swears in the real world.
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Post by coachcb on Sept 24, 2018 11:03:03 GMT -6
Agreed. A kid in my one of my classes ended up with two write-ups and a day of in-school suspension for swearing in class within the first two weeks in school. We're just as hard on the kids for swearing during practice as they have to understand that it's not acceptable in the real world. The kid I wrote up was furious until I told him "You let loose with an f-bomb twice in class and you get ISS, I let do that twice and I end up fired." I do believe that the ejections and suspensions are over the top but it is what it is. Yes..... No one swears in the real world. No.. Kids need to learn when it's appropriate and when it's not. I had a foul mouth growing up but knew better than to call someone a "piece of chit" in front of a teacher/boss or state that "this is f-ing bullchit" when a teacher/boss asked me to do something.
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Post by nicku on Sept 24, 2018 11:14:08 GMT -6
No.. Kids need to learn when it's appropriate and when it's not. I had a foul mouth growing up but knew better than to call someone a "piece of chit" in front of a teacher/boss or state that "this is f-ing bullchit" when a teacher/boss asked me to do something. so we pass a law? What happened to responsibility? Shame? What happened to child rearing? NONE OF YOU WOULD DARE ADMIT TO LETTING THE VILLAGE RAISE THE IDIOTS CHILD!!! I remember finding out about my best childhood buddy becoming a methhead pretty similar to this manner. Incoherent, almost all-caps posts on social media that seem to have come out of nowhere.
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Post by blb on Sept 24, 2018 11:16:40 GMT -6
Agreed. A kid in my one of my classes ended up with two write-ups and a day of in-school suspension for swearing in class within the first two weeks in school. We're just as hard on the kids for swearing during practice as they have to understand that it's not acceptable in the real world. The kid I wrote up was furious until I told him "You let loose with an f-bomb twice in class and you get ISS, I let do that twice and I end up fired." I do believe that the ejections and suspensions are over the top but it is what it is. Yes..... No one swears in the real world.
Time and place, time and place.
If you consider HS athletics an extension of the classroom as many administrators and parents do, profanity is hard to defend.
And if they want to get rid of you for whatever reason, using foul language gives them a justification.
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Post by coachcb on Sept 24, 2018 11:32:14 GMT -6
No.. Kids need to learn when it's appropriate and when it's not. I had a foul mouth growing up but knew better than to call someone a "piece of chit" in front of a teacher/boss or state that "this is f-ing bullchit" when a teacher/boss asked me to do something. so we pass a law? What happened to responsibility? Shame? What happened to child rearing? NONE OF YOU WOULD DARE ADMIT TO LETTING THE VILLAGE RAISE THE IDIOTS CHILD!!! We do have laws. If you swear loudly in public, you can be charged with disorderly conduct. If you swear at someone, you can be charged with harassment AND disorderly conduct. And, yes, it shouldn't be my responsibility as a teacher and a coach to teach a 17 year old kid that hollering out "you're a piece of chit!" in the middle class is inappropriate. But, unfortunately, it is.
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Post by Defcord on Sept 24, 2018 11:45:08 GMT -6
Yes..... No one swears in the real world. No.. Kids need to learn when it's appropriate and when it's not. I had a foul mouth growing up but knew better than to call someone a "piece of chit" in front of a teacher/boss or state that "this is f-ing bullchit" when a teacher/boss asked me to do something. What if someone steps on your toe during the game and you react, "Damn!...my toe." Allowed or not?
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Post by coachcb on Sept 24, 2018 11:50:37 GMT -6
No.. Kids need to learn when it's appropriate and when it's not. I had a foul mouth growing up but knew better than to call someone a "piece of chit" in front of a teacher/boss or state that "this is f-ing bullchit" when a teacher/boss asked me to do something. What if someone steps on your toe during the game and you react, "Damn!...my toe." Allowed or not? In your state, apparently not.
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Post by Defcord on Sept 24, 2018 11:58:50 GMT -6
What if someone steps on your toe during the game and you react, "Damn!...my toe." Allowed or not? In your state, apparently not. I am not in NC...but I get your point. You said it's about learning when and when not to use certain language. Where does this situation fit into that?
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Post by gccwolverine on Sept 24, 2018 12:32:27 GMT -6
Yes..... No one swears in the real world.
Time and place, time and place.
If you consider HS athletics an extension of the classroom as many administrators and parents do, profanity is hard to defend.
And if they want to get rid of you for whatever reason, using foul language gives them a justification.
I agree with all of this. Time and place absolutely... and sometimes in the heat of the competition a human being might let one fly. Just like on a job site, or at work out of anger or frustration with the situation people in everyday life might let one fly. I let one go 2 weeks ago during a generally {censored} {censored} defensive session on a Tuesday. We couldn't set the front correctly all of a sudden for some reason. The front is literally "Bench" set the darn thing to the short side of the field or (the bench). I can't make it any easier. So I snapped let a word fly, our superintendent whose son is on the team and watches practice everyday was in his usual spot. I was worried. HC said to me, "he's out here everyday he knows how you interact with the kids everyday, he knows that's not an everyday occurrence and you aren't out here cussing kids out. You're fine."
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Post by blb on Sept 24, 2018 12:49:43 GMT -6
There is a difference between "letting one fly" ("Hell's bells," "Dammit" for ex.) and directing it at a kid or an official (i.e. "You f...ing suck!").
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Post by coachcb on Sept 24, 2018 13:08:06 GMT -6
In your state, apparently not. I am not in NC...but I get your point. You said it's about learning when and when not to use certain language. Where does this situation fit into that? Within our school and program policy, this situation would be given a pass 1. It was a knee jerk reaction, directed at anyone and not "casual". (We have far too many kids who are swearing up a storm in a casual manner). 2. The language was PG. These are things that are -generally- applicable to the real world. If I slam my fingers in a desk in front of a class and say "Damnit!", I'm not going to get called to task for it. If I do the same thing and drop a loud f-bomb, there's a good chance I'm going to end up talking to the boss about it. If I look at a kid and say " f- this bullchit, you're a piece of chit!", I'm screwed.
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Post by newhope on Sept 25, 2018 8:15:06 GMT -6
Yes..... No one swears in the real world.
Time and place, time and place.
If you consider HS athletics an extension of the classroom as many administrators and parents do, profanity is hard to defend.
And if they want to get rid of you for whatever reason, using foul language gives them a justification.
At many schools, students barely get punished for profanity--if at all.
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Post by blb on Sept 25, 2018 8:20:39 GMT -6
Time and place, time and place.
If you consider HS athletics an extension of the classroom as many administrators and parents do, profanity is hard to defend.
And if they want to get rid of you for whatever reason, using foul language gives them a justification.
At many schools, students barely get punished for profanity--if at all.
I know, I worked at one of those.
Doesn't make it right.
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Post by fantom on Sept 25, 2018 8:21:34 GMT -6
What I don't like about the rule is that there are no hard guidelines. If it's left entirely up to the official's discretion you might get a guy who considers "Darnit" to be profanity.
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Post by newhope on Sept 25, 2018 8:22:51 GMT -6
I'd like to also focus on the title of the thread: rules in search of a problem. The rule previously was a 15 yd penalty. There were not flags flying all over the field for profanity. If there were, I could see an effort to stiffen the rule.
Again, we're not talking about directing profanity at someone--that again, I have no problem with someone be ejected for doing.
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Post by IronmanFootball on Sept 25, 2018 8:29:42 GMT -6
I got electrocuted once in class and yelled chit, the kids saw the blue light shoot up my arm (I have no idea why I didn't sue and wind up on disability for the next 30 years). They all said "Don't worry, we won't tell!"
What makes a bad word bad? What makes a word bad? When in Rome I guess. Also I'm glad I've toned down my yelling / loud voice in old age, 3 years ago I would've been tossed here in NC during game 1. Now I'm much calmer and just mutter things to myself all game. It's paid off.
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Post by coachwoodall on Sept 25, 2018 9:00:22 GMT -6
must....refrain....from....responding....with.....the history...of....profanity.....and....vulgarity
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Post by silkyice on Sept 25, 2018 9:08:42 GMT -6
At many schools, students barely get punished for profanity--if at all.
I know, I worked at one of those.
Doesn't make it right.
But getting ejected and suspended for the next game? Overkill much?
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Post by blb on Sept 25, 2018 9:13:37 GMT -6
I know, I worked at one of those.
Doesn't make it right.
But getting ejected and suspended for the next game? Overkill much?
I already said in the fourth post this thread I thought ejection-suspension was extreme.
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