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Post by dhooper on Mar 31, 2008 15:03:07 GMT -6
Good stuff, I ran last 4 games of the season with five wide, because I lost all my running backs due to injury. My QB was my best running back and we did the best we could. I still like to keep one back next to my QB. I'm the only spread team in my region and it makes the teams prepare different personnel against us.
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Post by airman on Mar 31, 2008 16:50:27 GMT -6
i think a big thing when it comes to throwing the ball is time. passers and catchers are developed. just like free throw shooting and jump shooters in baseball. it all comes down to reps.
in many traditional practices you see Offensive emphsis on monday and wednesday, defense emphsis on tuesdays and thursday.
you cannot be a very good passing team this way. your passers adn catchers have to play catch every day.
a team who passes and can platoon are already ahead. if you can not platoon you better figure away from your qb and wr to play catch for at least 30 min on defensive emphsis days. i know a small shool guy who passes the ball. his starting qb and 8 wr play only one way. they are going to win with offense at this school.
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Post by davecisar on Mar 31, 2008 17:02:10 GMT -6
i think a big thing when it comes to throwing the ball is time. passers and catchers are developed. just like free throw shooting and jump shooters in baseball. it all comes down to reps. in many traditional practices you see Offensive emphsis on monday and wednesday, defense emphsis on tuesdays and thursday. you cannot be a very good passing team this way. your passers adn catchers have to play catch every day. a team who passes and can platoon are already ahead. if you can not platoon you better figure away from your qb and wr to play catch for at least 30 min on defensive emphsis days. i know a small shool guy who passes the ball. his starting qb and 8 wr play only one way. they are going to win with offense at this school. At the Youth level with 3 then 2 days a week practice for most teams and with all your studs (QB and athletic recievers) playing both ways, an absolute impossibility.
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Post by airman on Mar 31, 2008 17:22:33 GMT -6
i think a big thing when it comes to throwing the ball is time. passers and catchers are developed. just like free throw shooting and jump shooters in baseball. it all comes down to reps. in many traditional practices you see Offensive emphsis on monday and wednesday, defense emphsis on tuesdays and thursday. you cannot be a very good passing team this way. your passers adn catchers have to play catch every day. a team who passes and can platoon are already ahead. if you can not platoon you better figure away from your qb and wr to play catch for at least 30 min on defensive emphsis days. i know a small shool guy who passes the ball. his starting qb and 8 wr play only one way. they are going to win with offense at this school. At the Youth level with 3 then 2 days a week practice for most teams and with all your studs (QB and athletic recievers) playing both ways, an absolute impossibility. I would agree. my comments were directed to the high school level. things you do at the youth level you do not do at the h.s. level and vice versa. I would not want a youth coach to try and do things which is reserved for the high school level. same with the high school level trying to do what pro guys do.
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Post by davecisar on Mar 31, 2008 17:31:03 GMT -6
Many do not understand the distinction and the main reason why so many youth coaches have offenses that score so few points. Probably the same reason many HS coaches that copy the colleges and pros fail as well.
From Bo Pelini this week "Too many teams fail because they try to be the Patriots, when they can't even block and tackle worth a darn"
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Post by airitout616 on Mar 31, 2008 17:34:30 GMT -6
Bottom line its a philosophy thing. If you believe in playing "keep away" and grinding it out then most likely you will never run or like 5 wides, but if you like to put the ball in the air, understand the passing game, and like to score points then you are more likely to run 5 wides.
I honestly don't think to run 5 wides you need the "right" personnel. You NEED to put your best player at QB NO MATTER WHAT !!! even if he isn't a "QB" then you put your "RB" type kids in the slot all they need to be able to do is catch a bubble screen. Outside WR's are your sure handed kids don't need to be burners but they run good routes and catch the ball well. Then your #2 on the trips side can be your "slug" you can put a TE or FB type kid here he blocks well for bubble screen and maybe you ask him to catch a pass or 2 during a game. Just because he isn't a burner or dosent catch as good the D still has to cover him right ?
As far as the smaller schools running 5 wides all I have to say is look at South Beloit HS in IL they where a 1A school (smallest division) and they won the state championship in 2002. They ran 5 wides about 90-95% of the time they ran some power I and motioned a back in the backfield a few times a game but mainly for short yards.
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Post by airman on Mar 31, 2008 18:02:18 GMT -6
I disagree with the best athlete being your qb. I want the smartest kid to be my qb with a good arm. does not have to be a great arm. U of montanna under Don Read was a big time passing program. they had great success despite not always the best conditions to throw the ball in. one of their best qb was a kick name dickenson or dickerson. he was 5-10 and a 160 lbs. he had a good arm but he was a 3.9 student. he understood how to throw the ball. knowing when and where to throw the ball is the most improtant thing and willing to do it.
montanna was in 4 wides, 5 wides all game.
peole think your qb had to run the ball against the 8 man drop. the wr middle screen is far more effective. it is like a kick return. 5 lineman like a old oshkosh V snow plow (for those of you from the south who do not know what a oshkosk V snow plow is, it is a huge truck. you need a ladder to get into and it has a 5 tp 8 ft high V snow plow in front of it. they still use them out in the dakotas, the UP and northern WI. it is made by oshkosh trucks in oshkosh wi. if your from new your a walters snow plow is the same thing) and a little kickoff returner behind him. in a true middle screen vs 8 man droping the ball is thrown to the wr at the edge of the tackle box.
riverside brookfield Il had there best years with a dropback passer who could run when he needed but did not run all the time. britt davis came a little later and he was more athletic.
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Post by khalfie on Mar 31, 2008 18:40:38 GMT -6
Bottom line its a philosophy thing. If you believe in playing "keep away" and grinding it out then most likely you will never run or like 5 wides, but if you like to put the ball in the air, understand the passing game, and like to score points then you are more likely to run 5 wides. I honestly don't think to run 5 wides you need the "right" personnel. You NEED to put your best player at QB NO MATTER WHAT !!! even if he isn't a "QB" then you put your "RB" type kids in the slot all they need to be able to do is catch a bubble screen. Outside WR's are your sure handed kids don't need to be burners but they run good routes and catch the ball well. Then your #2 on the trips side can be your "slug" you can put a TE or FB type kid here he blocks well for bubble screen and maybe you ask him to catch a pass or 2 during a game. Just because he isn't a burner or dosent catch as good the D still has to cover him right ? As far as the smaller schools running 5 wides all I have to say is look at South Beloit HS in IL they where a 1A school (smallest division) and they won the state championship in 2002. They ran 5 wides about 90-95% of the time they ran some power I and motioned a back in the backfield a few times a game but mainly for short yards. Stop it... That south Beloit team was lights out... the QB was accurate and athletic... and he had like 4 WR's that could take it to the house at any moment... They were fun to watch, but they were talented as heck. And at the 1a level... to have that type of talent... they were going to be tough no matter what they ran. Same as Tuscola... QB got signed by Iowa... crazy speed at the skill. Phenomenal defense. This you don't have to have the right personnel? Huh? Have a kid that gets rattled from a little pressure... or a line that can't contain a three man rush... or some WR's that drop the ones you need... you need the right personnel. Its easy to take talent for granted... when you have it... Your QB must be able to throw the ball... your O'line must give you 2.5 seconds... You must have 2 WR's with dependable hands, and 1 WR that can stretch a defense. Its not easy... unless you are talented.
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Post by mahonz on Mar 31, 2008 19:30:40 GMT -6
i think a big thing when it comes to throwing the ball is time. passers and catchers are developed. just like free throw shooting and jump shooters in baseball. it all comes down to reps. in many traditional practices you see Offensive emphsis on monday and wednesday, defense emphsis on tuesdays and thursday. you cannot be a very good passing team this way. your passers adn catchers have to play catch every day. a team who passes and can platoon are already ahead. if you can not platoon you better figure away from your qb and wr to play catch for at least 30 min on defensive emphsis days. i know a small shool guy who passes the ball. his starting qb and 8 wr play only one way. they are going to win with offense at this school. At the Youth level with 3 then 2 days a week practice for most teams and with all your studs (QB and athletic recievers) playing both ways, an absolute impossibility. Dave We platoon nearly 100% ( not enough lineman to be 100%) . My QB has not played one down on defense in 4 seasons. Come to think of it neither has my tailback or my #1 receiver....my corners have never played a down on offense either. They do nothing but eat sleep and drink DB stuff and it shows. If you create a formula and stick with it you will be very sucessful. Plus platooning at the youth level will turn duds into studs....kinda. We place about 60-70% of the talent on defense and 30-40% on offense. Works good. Easier to turn a sows ear into a silk purse on the offense IMO. Amazing what actually happens to a team over a 100 day period of specialization. Platooning at the youth level is my secret weapon. Dont know why more dont give it a try. We insist on 24-28 players to make it work...and everyone plays. Coach Mike
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Post by davecisar on Apr 1, 2008 5:04:24 GMT -6
Mike, In non select teams, too many players to hide to do that and compete in the league we play in. I play everyone too, from the opening gun, but we dont 100% platoon. We got all but 1 player to come back from the 2 teams I coached last year ,probably had a lot to do with development and playing time. I also dont like to specialize that early on, like all the kids to get practice and reps on both sides of the ball. I know you have the same group for 5-7 years in a row, thats not the norm for most coaches and would certainly aid in the proccess. I for one try to take a different team every season (on purpose). The only teams around here that platoon are the YMCA Rec leagues. Those that have tried it in our league have traditionally been bombed. But again you arent the average youth coach either
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CoachJ
Junior Member
Posts: 307
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Post by CoachJ on Apr 1, 2008 7:34:04 GMT -6
I would agree. my comments were directed to the high school level. things you do at the youth level you do not do at the h.s. level and vice versa. I would not want a youth coach to try and do things which is reserved for the high school level. same with the high school level trying to do what pro guys do. I know this was initially in response to platooning, but i have to disagree here. My biggest pet peeve of youth coaches are the extreme limitations they set for their kids. I hear "you can't do that" so often that it makes me sick. A lot of people just assume you can't do things and then never try it. It is easier for people to just do simple concepts that they feel comfortable with. How can you ever expect more out of a football player when you set a limitation in your own mind of their abilities from the beggining? I am not proposing an intricate check down process (ala Peyton Manning), but the concept of throwing and catching a pass isn't that foreign to them. Route combinations and simple progressions can be taught. I think a lot of coaches would be surprised what kids can do if they would shift their expectations of them. Same goes i guess for why you don't see more 5 wide teams in high school. The answer is because of fear of the unknown. 5 wide is simply outside of most coaches comfort zone and thus they tend to not like it. Each coach is going to do what they like and think will be successful. It is just the way it is. Running the ball out of more traditional set seems to be more natural.
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CoachJ
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Posts: 307
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Post by CoachJ on Apr 1, 2008 7:40:20 GMT -6
Many do not understand the distinction and the main reason why so many youth coaches have offenses that score so few points. Probably the same reason many HS coaches that copy the colleges and pros fail as well. From Bo Pelini this week "Too many teams fail because they try to be the Patriots, when they can't even block and tackle worth a darn" In my opinon this is partly correct. I think many youth coaches do not take the time or interest to understand what it takes to put a more developed offense on the field. From reading your posts, I can tell you are a person that puts in the time to understand many facets of the game, but you also do not appear to have a passion for anything outside of the offense you have designed. Kudos to you for that. I think a lot of guys that try and copy high school or college teams on a youth level simply see and try to implement, but don't think of the many things you have to break down to make something that appears so simple actually work.
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Post by davecisar on Apr 1, 2008 8:32:37 GMT -6
J, Not so at all, but I dont expect you to read every one of my posts ( that would be stalking . ) I love all well executing offenses, have said so many many times. Veer is probably my favorite and as an old "I" back Im a huge fan of the "I" and "I" option, Dead T as well as Barta Bone and others. In 16 years of coaching Ive run many different offenses, ( 1st year as asst on Spread team that won 3 games), "I", Veer, Power I, Double Wing, Single Wing and even some spread. The kids love our offense, we can play everyone and we score a ton of points so that's what Ive stuck with. We get all the kids back every year and we average 35-40 ppg pretty much every year ( while never scoring over 50) I just like what consistently works, allows me to get the ball to a whole bunch of kids, doesnt require big or dominating athletes, doesnt require 4-5 nights a week practice time and allows me to play everyone without affecting our competitivenes, whatever offense that may be. For me the offense I run now best meets those criteria, the others didnt meet those criteria consistently. As mentioned before, we worked the heck out of the passing game with a coach that was a 5A Texas QB coach and Passing Game guy who set all kinds of records at Mission,Texas and had similar success as a HC in Colorado etc He couldnt make it work for us, with average kids 2 years in a row, so Im very sceptical of making a consistent chain moving high scoring passing game work at the youth level with average kids and limited practice time. The very Same kids could however execute a very intricate and consistent running game though. Same goes for my experience of watching 100s of youth teams, here and in tournaments, Ive only seen 1 that could consistently move the chains throwing the ball and that was an "A" team playing in a "B" division, not fair at all. Just my experiences over the last 16 years, tournamentss, various leagues, your results certainly may vary. Of course the HS guys have much different constraints or lack therof so it is not the same equation for them.
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Post by airraider on Apr 1, 2008 16:40:23 GMT -6
I think I might just hold the record for loggest non-introduce yourself post??
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Post by airman on Apr 1, 2008 17:53:14 GMT -6
Bottom line its a philosophy thing. If you believe in playing "keep away" and grinding it out then most likely you will never run or like 5 wides, but if you like to put the ball in the air, understand the passing game, and like to score points then you are more likely to run 5 wides. I honestly don't think to run 5 wides you need the "right" personnel. You NEED to put your best player at QB NO MATTER WHAT !!! even if he isn't a "QB" then you put your "RB" type kids in the slot all they need to be able to do is catch a bubble screen. Outside WR's are your sure handed kids don't need to be burners but they run good routes and catch the ball well. Then your #2 on the trips side can be your "slug" you can put a TE or FB type kid here he blocks well for bubble screen and maybe you ask him to catch a pass or 2 during a game. Just because he isn't a burner or dosent catch as good the D still has to cover him right ? As far as the smaller schools running 5 wides all I have to say is look at South Beloit HS in IL they where a 1A school (smallest division) and they won the state championship in 2002. They ran 5 wides about 90-95% of the time they ran some power I and motioned a back in the backfield a few times a game but mainly for short yards. Stop it... That south Beloit team was lights out... the QB was accurate and athletic... and he had like 4 WR's that could take it to the house at any moment... They were fun to watch, but they were talented as heck. And at the 1a level... to have that type of talent... they were going to be tough no matter what they ran. Same as Tuscola... QB got signed by Iowa... crazy speed at the skill. Phenomenal defense. This you don't have to have the right personnel? Huh? Have a kid that gets rattled from a little pressure... or a line that can't contain a three man rush... or some WR's that drop the ones you need... you need the right personnel. Its easy to take talent for granted... when you have it... Your QB must be able to throw the ball... your O'line must give you 2.5 seconds... You must have 2 WR's with dependable hands, and 1 WR that can stretch a defense. Its not easy... unless you are talented. 2.5 seconds is an eternity in pass protection. more 1.85 seconds.
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CoachJ
Junior Member
Posts: 307
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Post by CoachJ on Apr 2, 2008 7:28:56 GMT -6
J, Not so at all, but I dont expect you to read every one of my posts ( that would be stalking . ) I love all well executing offenses, have said so many many times. Veer is probably my favorite and as an old "I" back Im a huge fan of the "I" and "I" option, Dead T as well as Barta Bone and others. In 16 years of coaching Ive run many different offenses, ( 1st year as asst on Spread team that won 3 games), "I", Veer, Power I, Double Wing, Single Wing and even some spread. The kids love our offense, we can play everyone and we score a ton of points so that's what Ive stuck with. We get all the kids back every year and we average 35-40 ppg pretty much every year ( while never scoring over 50) I just like what consistently works, allows me to get the ball to a whole bunch of kids, doesnt require big or dominating athletes, doesnt require 4-5 nights a week practice time and allows me to play everyone without affecting our competitivenes, whatever offense that may be. For me the offense I run now best meets those criteria, the others didnt meet those criteria consistently. As mentioned before, we worked the heck out of the passing game with a coach that was a 5A Texas QB coach and Passing Game guy who set all kinds of records at Mission,Texas and had similar success as a HC in Colorado etc He couldnt make it work for us, with average kids 2 years in a row, so Im very sceptical of making a consistent chain moving high scoring passing game work at the youth level with average kids and limited practice time. The very Same kids could however execute a very intricate and consistent running game though. Same goes for my experience of watching 100s of youth teams, here and in tournaments, Ive only seen 1 that could consistently move the chains throwing the ball and that was an "A" team playing in a "B" division, not fair at all. Just my experiences over the last 16 years, tournamentss, various leagues, your results certainly may vary. Of course the HS guys have much different constraints or lack therof so it is not the same equation for them. I read a lot of your posts in the youth area because while I sometimes have a different view than you, I do think your posts are interesting have a lot of insight. I believe we can learn a lot from people with a wealth of experience. I think it is great that you have found an offense you believe in and works for your situation and meets your goals. We choose to dabble in a little bit of 5 wide, but we also believe in a strong running game. By no means do we chuck it around the yard. I honestly think coach Mahonz is about the most innovative and courageous youth coach out there. I would love to have the confidence he has to sling it around. At times we do and have been successful. We just also see a lot of success running the ball and it is in our comfort zone to mix run/pass. My only contention is that almost anything CAN be done, because i simply don't believe in "can't". I think it takes creativity, patience, and commitment to do certain types of more complicated things, but they are possible. Now if you don't choose to be 5 wide gunslingers, that doesn't mean you lack creativity, patience, or commitment. i don't want to convey that. I am just saying that a lot of times when people claim "you can't do that in youth football" they lack faith in the ability of kids. i would rather believe first and be proven wrong then not believe and proven wrong.
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Post by raiderpirates on Apr 3, 2008 3:11:20 GMT -6
Classic West Coast/Ohio valley offense uses balance.
The depth of ball distribution is the key to balance. It's difficult to say one of any formation will win against evenly matched opponents. Some situations favor some formations more than others.
That said, third and fifteen there's not much chance a single wing or five wide is going to move the chains as often.
Going to extreme or radical five wide looks is the other side of the 'cloud of dust' coin.
If you use five wide per down, from what I've learned, you had better use a lot of motion and shifts to change matchups.
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