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Post by dubber on Aug 10, 2018 9:07:34 GMT -6
Guess I am in the minority here.....if on practice #1 I have zero players who can cover this kid on a fade ball, he is the starter.
If he is a cancer, then that’s one thing, and you deal with it.
But if he comes out and works hard (ish) and is s good teammate, then F it.
I think sometimes we as coaches convince ourselves that we are hard asses for the kids sake, when it is really our own ego fueling it.
Guess what? This is real life! Sometimes you bust you butt, do everything right, and you still end up losing.
BTW, I would slowly introduce this cat to defense.....start off showing him videos of Calvin Johnson playing defense in Hail Mary situations......then let him practice that and get a taste for interceptions. Slowly build him toward defense.
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Post by mackball on Aug 10, 2018 9:08:40 GMT -6
Simple. Put him right in and throw him the ball. We had a D1 point guard commit come out for our team. All the kids know how good he is and will think you are an idiot if you don't put him in right away, they are probably more excited than you. The only kid who will not like it is the WR right now. We had a D1 Point guard come out and I put him right in and he caught 21 touchdowns and our team made it to the final four.
I had another time where a D1 pitcher wanted to play but was going to be a few days late to camp. He was a starter as a Frosh at OT and quit to pitch for two years, wanted to play one last season of football after he already committed to baseball. Tried to be all tough guy and told him he needed to be there like everyone else and yah yah yah. Kid never came out and our OLine sucked and the team thought I was stupid, because I was.
Kids like that pick your kids up, they all want to impress him and they step up there games to keep up. They all have been playing with him since they were little and all the parents have seen him as well, and the only parents who wouldn't be on board are the ones whose kid won't play as much, too bad. The D1 kids are D1 for a reason, come playoff time, they will feel the competition, have a ton of reps under their belts, really enjoy their teammates, and trust me they will be competing hard. Most of them are talented and highly competitive I would expect nothing less from this kid. Love him up, help him out, and throw him the ball.
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Post by wingtol on Aug 10, 2018 9:10:21 GMT -6
I'm guessing if this kid is all of a sudden interested in playing then it was probably the kids on the team who were after him to come out and play. I know it's weird to think but football players hang out with people other than football players it's not like this kid is an unknown or transfer just showing up. If he's got a good attitude, isn't a problem, and works hard let him play who cares what he missed.
Like Sconnie said some people are just better than you no matter how hard you work or try. Some don't have to work hard and are just naturals that can get it done no matter if it's sports, business, teaching, coaching whatever. If you end up winning a title a lot of people won't give a rip about what this kid missed.
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Post by blb on Aug 10, 2018 9:13:46 GMT -6
wiscoach Do you typically let kids come out late i.e. after practice has started? If this kid was a 5-9 WR who runs 5.0 would you let him on the team?
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Post by mackball on Aug 10, 2018 9:32:28 GMT -6
My old HS who is a multiple State Champ and is in the HOF would always say don't cut your nose off to spite your face. What did the kid do to not play game 1??? This is High School Football, some kids are indecisive and when they finally decide to play, let them.
If this kid were not going to be a stud, you should 100% still take him. I have taken kids in week 3 and they loved it. Ended up playing a few special teams and were seniors who just always wanted to play and finally said I'm doing it. Hats off to the kid, I loved it.
I'd rather only a few parents thinking I was mean for letting him on and playing him over their kids, then the whole village thinking I was an idiot.
The coach on Hoosiers let Jimmy Chitwood on half way through the season, now there is a movie about him.
Don't cut your nose off to spite your face.
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Post by stilltryin on Aug 10, 2018 9:51:40 GMT -6
My old HS who is a multiple State Champ and is in the HOF would always say don't cut your nose off to spite your face. What did the kid do to not play game 1??? This is High School Football, some kids are indecisive and when they finally decide to play, let them. If this kid were not going to be a stud, you should 100% still take him. I have taken kids in week 3 and they loved it. Ended up playing a few special teams and were seniors who just always wanted to play and finally said I'm doing it. Hats off to the kid, I loved it. I'd rather only a few parents thinking I was mean for letting him on and playing him over their kids, then the whole village thinking I was an idiot. The coach on Hoosiers let Jimmy Chitwood on half way through the season, now there is a movie about him. Don't cut your nose off to spite your face. Amen, mackball. Don't make this harder than it already is. Gimme the kid who decides he wants to play, late or not, over the ones who are doing it because they feel pressured by coaches parents, friends, whatever, and then spend half the season whining 'cause they don't play enough. Plug him in, go win a championship, and we'll all be toasting Jimmy Chitwood and this season 20 years from now.
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Post by fantom on Aug 10, 2018 10:02:11 GMT -6
wiscoach Do you typically let kids come out late i.e. after practice has started? If this kid was a 5-9 WR who runs 5.0 would you let him on the team? I don't know about a WR but with linemen we had a "look up" rule. If a kid wanted to come up late, if I had to crank my neck back to look up into his eyes, I wanted to take him.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 10, 2018 10:48:39 GMT -6
wiscoach Do you typically let kids come out late i.e. after practice has started? If this kid was a 5-9 WR who runs 5.0 would you let him on the team? I don't know about a WR but with linemen we had a "look up" rule. If a kid wanted to come up late, if I had to crank my neck back to look up into his eyes, I wanted to take him. I've never worked anywhere that had a hard and fast cut-off for when kids couldn't come out. Generally speaking, it was always the first game. And that was mostly due to the fact that if a kid came out after the first game, it would be 3 weeks before that kid would be eligible to play (before he could get his 14 practices in).
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Post by wingtol on Aug 10, 2018 11:37:33 GMT -6
And there's a down side to not letting him come out. If he's as good as advertised every kid in the school knows it. As others have said, they may have been trying to talk him into coming out. If he finally asks to come out and you don't take him they may wonder how serious you are about winning. if he is that good? I am shocked another school hasn't come calling..spare me the ethics and morality of it. He said the kid is a D1 athlete in another sport, so it's not like it's football or nothing for this guy. I would say he's probably happy at the school playing other sports and wouldn't need to worry about him leaving over football.
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Post by dubber on Aug 10, 2018 11:37:46 GMT -6
wiscoach Do you typically let kids come out late i.e. after practice has started? If this kid was a 5-9 WR who runs 5.0 would you let him on the team? We typically let freshmen and sophomores come out, get excited about football, and then slowly tighten the "accountability" screws. If this kid was a senior, we would let him come out, but he would know scout team should be his expectation....nothing more.
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Post by Hitch & Pitch on Aug 10, 2018 12:17:24 GMT -6
I'd just tell him... "no smoking in the huddle, unless you really, really, need one. now go line up at the X and go deep"...
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Post by coachdubyah on Aug 10, 2018 12:41:04 GMT -6
I’m making mine do the makeup and it’s going fine. Some kids have to make up 18-20 days. Non negotiable.
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Post by fantom on Aug 10, 2018 13:44:45 GMT -6
Something that comes into play is your state's rules about the offseason. In my state we can't make the offseason mandatory.
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Post by tothehouse on Aug 10, 2018 14:07:30 GMT -6
I'm in the "get him the ball as much as possible" camp.
We had a kid that could have ended up being the best athlete in school history come out for football last year as a soph. His mom didn't let him come out for football so dad took her to court (divorced). Dad and kid won and the kid came out fht first day of pads. He had played before. Our HC didn't get him in right away. He was the back up QB...TO MY SON!!! I told our HC to get him MORE reps than my son immediately. If he beats out my kid...NO big deal. Why? That means my kid would have been full time defense. Anyway...coach didn't utilize him at all. 6'4" 210. Could have thrown him red zone fades all game. Never did it once all season. Not once. How this fits with the OP...kids all knew the kid wanted to come out. When he finally did...my own son would have taken a backseat to this guy. Kids know.
Sadly, this player and a senior on last years team died in a car crash (DUI driver killed them). Besides what kind of kid he was, I am extremely upset that I don't get to see what his athletic career would have shaked out to be. I pegged him as a D1 QB...in a major program.
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Post by wiscoach on Aug 10, 2018 14:14:36 GMT -6
Guess I am in the minority here.....if on practice #1 I have zero players who can cover this kid on a fade ball, he is the starter. If he is a cancer, then that’s one thing, and you deal with it. But if he comes out and works hard (ish) and is s good teammate, then F it. I think sometimes we as coaches convince ourselves that we are hard asses for the kids sake, when it is really our own ego fueling it. Guess what? This is real life! Sometimes you bust you butt, do everything right, and you still end up losing. BTW, I would slowly introduce this cat to defense.....start off showing him videos of Calvin Johnson playing defense in Hail Mary situations......then let him practice that and get a taste for interceptions. Slowly build him toward defense. I had the same thought about defense as well. The kid is a fiery competitor, wouldn't surprise me if he decided he wanted to hit people. Simple. Put him right in and throw him the ball. We had a D1 point guard commit come out for our team. All the kids know how good he is and will think you are an idiot if you don't put him in right away, they are probably more excited than you. The only kid who will not like it is the WR right now. We had a D1 Point guard come out and I put him right in and he caught 21 touchdowns and our team made it to the final four. I had another time where a D1 pitcher wanted to play but was going to be a few days late to camp. He was a starter as a Frosh at OT and quit to pitch for two years, wanted to play one last season of football after he already committed to baseball. Tried to be all tough guy and told him he needed to be there like everyone else and yah yah yah. Kid never came out and our OLine sucked and the team thought I was stupid, because I was. Kids like that pick your kids up, they all want to impress him and they step up there games to keep up. They all have been playing with him since they were little and all the parents have seen him as well, and the only parents who wouldn't be on board are the ones whose kid won't play as much, too bad. The D1 kids are D1 for a reason, come playoff time, they will feel the competition, have a ton of reps under their belts, really enjoy their teammates, and trust me they will be competing hard. Most of them are talented and highly competitive I would expect nothing less from this kid. Love him up, help him out, and throw him the ball. Thanks for this perspective. I'm guessing if this kid is all of a sudden interested in playing then it was probably the kids on the team who were after him to come out and play. I know it's weird to think but football players hang out with people other than football players it's not like this kid is an unknown or transfer just showing up. If he's got a good attitude, isn't a problem, and works hard let him play who cares what he missed. Like Sconnie said some people are just better than you no matter how hard you work or try. Some don't have to work hard and are just naturals that can get it done no matter if it's sports, business, teaching, coaching whatever. If you end up winning a title a lot of people won't give a rip about what this kid missed. Thanks for this as well, I had not considered that this might have been a team effort to get him out. wiscoach Do you typically let kids come out late i.e. after practice has started? If this kid was a 5-9 WR who runs 5.0 would you let him on the team? Yes, we always get guys coming out when school starts, or end up having a couple come out late and it has never been an issue. We would let anyone come out that isn't a cancer. My old HS who is a multiple State Champ and is in the HOF would always say don't cut your nose off to spite your face. What did the kid do to not play game 1??? This is High School Football, some kids are indecisive and when they finally decide to play, let them. If this kid were not going to be a stud, you should 100% still take him. I have taken kids in week 3 and they loved it. Ended up playing a few special teams and were seniors who just always wanted to play and finally said I'm doing it. Hats off to the kid, I loved it. I'd rather only a few parents thinking I was mean for letting him on and playing him over their kids, then the whole village thinking I was an idiot. The coach on Hoosiers let Jimmy Chitwood on half way through the season, now there is a movie about him. Don't cut your nose off to spite your face. Thanks for the perspective I'd just tell him... "no smoking in the huddle, unless you really, really, need one. now go line up at the X and go deep"... LOL. Also, I'm realizing i have a personal related story. We had a kid quit my senior year, and then he wanted to come out during scrimmage week. A good 260 pound lineman. I personally lead the "You have to do all this extra {censored} before and after every practice" push and he decided to stay home. We ended up making the playoffs for the first time in 20 something years but going out in round 1 against a stud DT that we couldn't block. I regret running that kid off still to this day.
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Post by natenator on Aug 10, 2018 14:17:29 GMT -6
Pretty sure that's how TO (and countless others) became what he is. A Hall of Famer? A POS teammate that relates directly to him being given preferential treatment throughout his playing days. Plenty of HOF players were not POS teammates/human beings. I'm glad I dont need wins so badly that I'd be willing to give a player, who hasn't done jack to help the program yet, preferential treatment over guys who have. Color me strange.
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Post by blb on Aug 10, 2018 14:49:44 GMT -6
wiscoachYou say you would let anyone come out late who "wasn't a cancer." How do you define that? Do your kids who have been around all summer and for Pre-Season practice accept them?
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Post by wiscoach on Aug 10, 2018 15:34:42 GMT -6
wiscoach You say you would let anyone come out late who "wasn't a cancer." How do you define that? Do your kids who have been around all summer and for Pre-Season practice accept them? I am not the HC just so you know, but essentially we have welcomed anyone who wasn't undermining players or coaches, and would give good effort in practice and do what we asked of them. Last year we had one come out day one after not playing football before and not attending a single workout, and he ended up being a 2 way all conference player. The kids all really looked up to him. I think for the most part 80 percent of our team will welcome a late-comer.
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Post by fkaboneyard on Aug 10, 2018 15:54:24 GMT -6
If that kid was playing Fortnite all summer, knowing he would be stepping onto the field at the last possible moment to avoid work I'd take him but he would ride the pine for awhile and he'd have to earn a spot by busting his ass. And if he is the guy that did the above he'd probably not be willing to do what it takes.
If the opportunity popped into the kid's head and he took it he would make the team. If he could do the job right out of the gate he'd get the spot.
I tell my guys all the time - football is a lot like life. It doesn't care if you're good looking, have a lot of money, have a big hose, have a hot girlfriend. Be the best and do what others can't at something that matters and you will succeed.
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Post by blb on Aug 11, 2018 6:52:11 GMT -6
wiscoach You say you would let anyone come out late who "wasn't a cancer." How do you define that? Do your kids who have been around all summer and for Pre-Season practice accept them? I am not the HC just so you know, but essentially we have welcomed anyone who wasn't undermining players or coaches, and would give good effort in practice and do what we asked of them. Last year we had one come out day one after not playing football before and not attending a single workout, and he ended up being a 2 way all conference player. The kids all really looked up to him. I think for the most part 80 percent of our team will welcome a late-comer.
Fair enough.
However there is a difference in a kid showing up for first day of practice after not participating all summer as in your example above, and a kid waiting until all of Pre-Season practice (the potential stud WR) is over.
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 11, 2018 9:23:51 GMT -6
I am not the HC just so you know, but essentially we have welcomed anyone who wasn't undermining players or coaches, and would give good effort in practice and do what we asked of them. Last year we had one come out day one after not playing football before and not attending a single workout, and he ended up being a 2 way all conference player. The kids all really looked up to him. I think for the most part 80 percent of our team will welcome a late-comer.
Fair enough.
However there is a difference in a kid showing up for first day of practice after not participating all summer as in your example above, and a kid waiting until all of Pre-Season practice (the potential stud WR) is over.
Yes, as well as the fact that it really starts to become a bit arbitrary doesn't it? If one can show up a few days before the opening scrimmage, can one show up a few days before the opening game? How about just a few days before the big rivalry game in week 8? I am just saying that there may be some negative unintended consequences for introducing the idea that anytime you decide you want to play, come on out. That doesn't mean not to have that policy, just be wary that it could be the catalyst of some bad things, particularly at a smaller school. I like to use the term "program strength" to describe the fact that certain schools, while they may fluctuate year to year in talent, always seem to have a certain base level of success. I attribute this to the fact that in order to compete on their own team, the kids have to achieve a level of proficiency greater than many of their opponents. Once it no longer takes a good deal of work and effort to do this, the team is in trouble.
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Post by Defcord on Aug 11, 2018 13:00:22 GMT -6
wiscoach You say you would let anyone come out late who "wasn't a cancer." How do you define that? Do your kids who have been around all summer and for Pre-Season practice accept them? I am not the HC just so you know, but essentially we have welcomed anyone who wasn't undermining players or coaches, and would give good effort in practice and do what we asked of them. Last year we had one come out day one after not playing football before and not attending a single workout, and he ended up being a 2 way all conference player. The kids all really looked up to him. I think for the most part 80 percent of our team will welcome a late-comer. Just out of curiosity after having the great season did he carry that momentum into the offseason? It’s great to see kids come out and have success. I hope most would build on that success the following off season. I would worry that some would take an approach that they had a ton of success without an off-season and want to miss again. Curious to see how your kid played out.
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Post by wiscoach on Aug 11, 2018 16:45:36 GMT -6
I am not the HC just so you know, but essentially we have welcomed anyone who wasn't undermining players or coaches, and would give good effort in practice and do what we asked of them. Last year we had one come out day one after not playing football before and not attending a single workout, and he ended up being a 2 way all conference player. The kids all really looked up to him. I think for the most part 80 percent of our team will welcome a late-comer. Just out of curiosity after having the great season did he carry that momentum into the offseason? It’s great to see kids come out and have success. I hope most would build on that success the following off season. I would worry that some would take an approach that they had a ton of success without an off-season and want to miss again. Curious to see how your kid played out. That was his Senior year so we didn't get him again.
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Post by Defcord on Aug 11, 2018 16:52:08 GMT -6
Just out of curiosity after having the great season did he carry that momentum into the offseason? It’s great to see kids come out and have success. I hope most would build on that success the following off season. I would worry that some would take an approach that they had a ton of success without an off-season and want to miss again. Curious to see how your kid played out. That was his Senior year so we didn't get him again. I knew that was a possibly answer but hoped to hear something out. Do you think he would have attended?
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Post by wiscoach on Aug 11, 2018 19:38:27 GMT -6
That was his Senior year so we didn't get him again. I knew that was a possibly answer but hoped to hear something out. Do you think he would have attended? No, Im pretty sure he would not have attended. He was very content getting by on natural ability and never showed great attention to detail, effort on pursuit, etc.
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Post by adawg2302 on Aug 11, 2018 21:03:01 GMT -6
How would you handle the situation if he was a "normal" dude, and not one of the best athletes in the state?
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Post by jlenwood on Aug 12, 2018 5:56:07 GMT -6
I have ALWAYS hated the kid that let's everyone else work their a$$ off during camp and then decide they would like to play, however we always needed bodies and the HC let them in. That said, there were some requirements that needed to be met...and we let the captains figure that one out. The kids that met those requirements were embraced as team mates, those that didn't watched from the stands.
Also, I would never discuss playing time with any player, let alone one who showed up late. Just tell him he has to do what the team says and earn his keep. If he shines at practice and scrimmages like you say he will, then everyone will see he has earned his spot. If he is a loafer or diva, well then the others will see that as well and I would assume playing time would be taken care of. As far as him saying he wants to be a receiver, that also would depend on if he was better than the guys we had there.
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Post by blb on Aug 12, 2018 5:57:33 GMT -6
How would you handle the situation if he was a "normal" dude, and not one of the best athletes in the state?
Already been asked and answered.
Might want to read through the thread before posting.
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Post by larrymoe on Aug 12, 2018 11:01:04 GMT -6
We always told a kid that if they made up all the conditioning that the rest of the team did in the practices they missed, on top of whatever the captains came up with for summer make up they were free to play. The kids were usually good with it because it was usually a lot of running and if they got through it, the kids knew they were all in. If they didn't want to do it, oh well. I like that a lot, and it's something meaningful. Would you stick to that if you believed you would lose the kid if you made that mandatory, and he made you a legitimate championship contender? In our state practice started something like 27 days ago. That's a lot of running to make up. We just finished up Practice number 7 Why should a kid have to make up all the weights and conditioning if he is already the best player at the position, assuming that he is? He definitely would be. I am pretty comfortable in saying we would have the best skill group of any small school in the state with this possible addition. yeah, let him play X....give him whatever number he wants Ha, I hate that we would be taking time away from "program" guys. But I think the feeling of losing in the playoffs and knowing what the potential was would be worse Sorry for the delay, I forgot about this thread. Yes. That procedure was followed for everyone. I wanted kids who wanted to be there and who were dedicated more to the program than themselves. When our success eventually led to everyone expecting different rules so we could get Ws, I left. I wanted to do it my way, or not do it because I didn't want to sacrifice my beliefs for Ws like so many people do. If a kid isn't willing to pay the price their peers who are fully bought in are willing to pay, that kid may ne fabulously talented, but he'll disappear when it gets tough.
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Post by larrymoe on Aug 12, 2018 11:05:26 GMT -6
You still don't get it. The group he has is pretty good already. They have worked hard, now a slapick comes in and knows he is the best player but doesn't do feces going to come in. You may gain one but you may lose a lot. Yes, he may make a difference in many ways and they may not be good. I always left it up to the kids, I let them talk it over and vote. Then of course there is make up conditioning and I always may that tough, hills, tire flips and pushes plus whatever else. If the kid complains they there is the door. You dance with the one you brought. Slapdick? According to wiscoach, this kid is one of the best high school athletes in the state and has D1 offers in other sports. And he hasn't said anything about the kid being a cancer. That doesn't sound like slapdick to me. Letting the kids decide is a cop-out. You are the coach. The coach gets paid to make the tough decisions. Although, in this case, it should not be a tough decision at all. And, I don't know what the Wisconsin rules are, but, in Illinois, a player has to have 14 practices (I think?) before he can play in the game. Assuming there is a similar rule in Wisconsin, this kid isn't going to play right away anyway. Cop out? Start replacing hard working kids with kids who don't buy in because you want him so you can pump up your ego with winning and let me know how long you have a team willing to do what it takes.
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