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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2018 20:31:03 GMT -6
"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love socializing in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households." Socrates, 2400 years ago. "This year-round crap is for the birds" My retirement speech (OK, I never actually said it but I thought it). At times I wonder if there might be shift in HS football back to doing less organized offseason stuff. There's so much marketing ramping up in 7 on 7 and camps now, but it's wearing kids out. Football is trying to be more like basketball and baseball with year round activities and constant practices because companies see dollar signs and grinders are always going to find new ways to grind... but the demands of the sport are such that you can't really suit up and play outside of a few months in the fall and maybe a couple of weeks in spring. Eventually you have to look at what is actually going to build up numbers and players and be effective at making you competitive when the season starts and what's just going to burn kids out and run them off. I feel like in 5-10 years, HS football will still exist, but there'll be a lot more emphasis on 7 on 7 and private coaches for the truly motivated/stud athletes and the HS teams will mostly just lift in the offseason, have spring practice that will basically be little more than 7 on 7, and then get together in July for practice with very little hitting. I also feel like you'll see the talent divide in the sport increased along rich and poor and a lot more 6 man and 8 man ball played by the smaller schools to compensate for lower numbers and money.
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Post by blb on Aug 11, 2018 6:01:07 GMT -6
The first day of a graduate-level Coaching Football class I was in the instructor, one of my college coaches-mentors, said: "Football is in trouble. Be prepared to defend it!"
That was 1980.
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Post by blb on Aug 11, 2018 6:18:53 GMT -6
Article in paper yesterday about a school in our county, enrollment 549. They have 93 kids out for Football 9-12, and 116 in youth program grades 6-8.
Apparently news of impending doom hasn't gotten there yet.
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Post by CS on Aug 11, 2018 6:29:17 GMT -6
Football is more popular than ever here. We have so many kids out in our junior high that we have had to order new jersey’s for them and we just found out we actually have declining numbers at the school.
Our state association just started an 8 man league with 8 teams to start but it will grow.
I’m no expert but maybe it’s just a regional thing. I’m not seeing declining numbers or hearing any of my friends talk about declining numbers. I’m not saying that anyone here is lying because I’m sure you are seeing it but I wouldn’t be so quick to say that football is on life support
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Post by bobgoodman on Aug 11, 2018 10:22:27 GMT -6
I coach in the county that this team is from and used to play them on a yearly basis. In the past 10 years the demographics of that school have changed dramatically. about 50 different languages are now spoken at the school with many immigrants arriving each year. that along with the fact that kids transfer out of that school to play football elsewhere in the county about did them in. i don't think it has anything to do w concussions..more of a cultural thing..FWIW, they are pretty good in soccer. LOL That's what I saw in the club where I coached in the east Bronx: an influx of kids from places & families where American football is alien, but baseball, soccer, or cricket are big. It did reduce numbers a lot. Their next generation will probably be more into football than they are. And that's a concentrated (in time & place) example of what's been true of football in New York City for decades. Demographics isn't the only reason football isn't as big in NYC as it was 50-60 yrs. ago, but it's a big one, probably the primary one. As evidence of the effect of ethnic culture on sports choice, I give Gaelic football. A few years ago I was musing as to why in recent years Australian Rules football clubs had sprung up outside Australia, but Gaelic football wasn't spreading, although those games are so similar. Someone gave me the answer that I should've seen: That the Irish like to think of Gaelic football as "their thing", while there's no corresponding sentiment about Aussie Rules. As Bronx neighborhoods became less Irish, I saw less Gaelic football played there.
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Post by carookie on Aug 11, 2018 10:56:17 GMT -6
Football is more popular than ever here. We have so many kids out in our junior high that we have had to order new jersey’s for them and we just found out we actually have declining numbers at the school. Our state association just started an 8 man league with 8 teams to start but it will grow. I’m no expert but maybe it’s just a regional thing. I’m not seeing declining numbers or hearing any of my friends talk about declining numbers. I’m not saying that anyone here is lying because I’m sure you are seeing it but I wouldn’t be so quick to say that football is on life support I wonder if, due to increased recruiting at the HS level and an emphasis being placed on getting kids scholarships, there is a gravitation towards the big schools that is causing a lot of coaches to think that numbers are dropping but actually they are just on the move? For example, 30 years ago there were 300 kids playing in a given region evenly distributed between 6 teams (50 per team). Now there are 400 kids and 8 teams (still could be 50 per), but the two dominant teams have 100 each on their roster, leaving 200 total for the other 6. Those coaches now have less than 35 on their teams and wonder, 'geez why aren't kids playing football anymore?' Maybe this is just where I am at, because there are a lot of big, and big time, programs around me who are running with over 150 kids 9-12. While there are some programs that are struggling to stay afloat.
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Post by bobgoodman on Aug 11, 2018 11:00:34 GMT -6
In fact Gaelic football was designed as "their thing". In the late 19th Century the Gaelic Athletic Ass'n formed in Ireland (still part of the UK then) specifically to adopt and promote a form of football that'd be distinct from the British rugby & soccer that were becoming popular and in the process of displacing the various folk football games in Britain and the USA. It seems likely now that they knowingly or unknowingly imported their game from Australia, via a club in Ireland, but as long as it didn't have a British cachet that was fine.
Around the world and in North America, would you say American football is more like Gaelic football, i.e. associated strongly w America & things American? Or is it more like Australian football, i.e. a game for anybody, having no particular national or ethnic attachment?
Note that in Australia 4 forms of football (Aussie Rules, Rugby League, Rugby Union, and soccer) are fairly popular among both participants and spectators, with even American football coming up more than in most countries; it's the only major country where Rugby League is bigger than Union. The games each have their partisans & promoters, but not one of the games, even their native & earliest established Aussie Rules, can be said to own football in that country; maybe that's why they've been relatively open to American football participation.
In Ireland, although soccer is becoming more popular (maybe even edging out Gaelic football lately) and plenty of Rugby Union has always been played, Gaelic football is still thought of in somewhat patriotic terms, it being considered by many a pity that soccer may be slowly displacing it. (I should point out that there's some similar sentiment in Canada about Canadian as opposed to American football, though not with the same emotion.)
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Post by bobgoodman on Aug 11, 2018 11:03:14 GMT -6
Football is more popular than ever here. We have so many kids out in our junior high that we have had to order new jersey’s for them and we just found out we actually have declining numbers at the school. Our state association just started an 8 man league with 8 teams to start but it will grow. I’m no expert but maybe it’s just a regional thing. I’m not seeing declining numbers or hearing any of my friends talk about declining numbers. I’m not saying that anyone here is lying because I’m sure you are seeing it but I wouldn’t be so quick to say that football is on life support I wonder if, due to increased recruiting at the HS level and an emphasis being placed on getting kids scholarships, there is a gravitation towards the big schools that is causing a lot of coaches to think that numbers are dropping but actually they are just on the move? For example, 30 years ago there were 300 kids playing in a given region evenly distributed between 6 teams (50 per team). Now there are 400 kids and 8 teams (still could be 50 per), but the two dominant teams have 100 each on their roster, leaving 200 total for the other 6. Those coaches now have less than 35 on their teams and wonder, 'geez why aren't kids playing football anymore?' Maybe this is just where I am at, because there are a lot of big, and big time, programs around me who are running with over 150 kids 9-12. While there are some programs that are struggling to stay afloat. If there's now a substantial number of rosters of over 100, then in fact there are a lot of kids not playing football any more.
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Post by carookie on Aug 11, 2018 11:11:55 GMT -6
I wonder if, due to increased recruiting at the HS level and an emphasis being placed on getting kids scholarships, there is a gravitation towards the big schools that is causing a lot of coaches to think that numbers are dropping but actually they are just on the move? For example, 30 years ago there were 300 kids playing in a given region evenly distributed between 6 teams (50 per team). Now there are 400 kids and 8 teams (still could be 50 per), but the two dominant teams have 100 each on their roster, leaving 200 total for the other 6. Those coaches now have less than 35 on their teams and wonder, 'geez why aren't kids playing football anymore?' Maybe this is just where I am at, because there are a lot of big, and big time, programs around me who are running with over 150 kids 9-12. While there are some programs that are struggling to stay afloat. If there's now a substantial number of rosters of over 100, then in fact there are a lot of kids not playing football any more. Haha, well done sir.
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Post by Chris Clement on Aug 11, 2018 14:44:15 GMT -6
That’s because League is shite.
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Post by s73 on Aug 11, 2018 14:59:24 GMT -6
"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love socializing in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households." Socrates, 2400 years ago. "This year-round crap is for the birds" My retirement speech (OK, I never actually said it but I thought it). I would like to see a study done in which we could get football enrollments pre & post year round activities. I have a sneaking suspicion the 24/7 football culture has SOME to do w/ declining Fb numbers. just a hunch
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Post by bobgoodman on Aug 11, 2018 15:34:24 GMT -6
I would like to see a study done in which we could get football enrollments pre & post year round activities. I have a sneaking suspicion the 24/7 football culture has SOME to do w/ declining Fb numbers. just a hunch If so it's because it increases the ratio of preparation to play. It's been pointed out that football has about the highest ratio of practice to play of team sports. For instance, it's been written that in baseball one might play twice as many hours as practice. Football's expanding to more of the calendar wouldn't bother me, if that meant more actual games of tackle football. It wasn't long ago that I learned that baseball season used to go from the first thaw of spring thru Thanksgiving -- and that if they had an extended thaw in winter they might get up games then too. Rugby and soccer are played most of the year too, and when intercollegiate football began, it was fall and spring. Basketball, indoors & out -- year round. Know why football got to be a fall-only game? That was a result of an effort by people who wanted to do away with the game entirely, and figured they could eventually phase it out by cutting it back by degrees.
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Post by jgordon1 on Aug 11, 2018 15:44:45 GMT -6
Its interesting..the teams around here that are good have 90+ kids in their programs...the others , not so much...To me, much has to do with the environment/culture..
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Post by s73 on Aug 11, 2018 15:44:48 GMT -6
I would like to see a study done in which we could get football enrollments pre & post year round activities. I have a sneaking suspicion the 24/7 football culture has SOME to do w/ declining Fb numbers. just a hunch If so it's because it increases the ratio of preparation to play. It's been pointed out that football has about the highest ratio of practice to play of team sports. For instance, it's been written that in baseball one might play twice as many hours as practice. Yep! 100% agree. I've been saying that for years. I've slowly been restructuring the way I run my program since 2004. In 2004 I did away w/ 2 a days. Then we slowly trimmed down practices from 3+ hours to trying to be 2.5 or less, and we decided not to use all of our contact days. Then we eventually did away w/ conditioning. Then I decided to make December & March "dead months" for the weight room where we do not lift to encourage kids to do other things and to get a break for myself. This to me has been all about common sense. I have seen no detrimental effects b/c of this in our performance. I think the main reasons behind it is b/c our kids tend to be fresh and feel good comparatively to other kids who are getting "run into the ground" in other programs. IMO, if I work out for 2.5 hours the last thing I want to do is CONDITION AFTER MY WORKOUT. I feel athletic recovery is one of the most under rated & over looked aspects of training athletes in all sports & football coaches are prob the worst culprits of all. JMO PS - Don't recall the last time I brought kids in the morning after a game. I used to feel like I had to "defend" my approach, now I'm actually pretty proud of it. Not saying it's for everyone but I feel in an era of declining numbers ours have been steadier then some teams in our area. Still down but manageable.
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Post by stilltryin on Aug 11, 2018 16:13:21 GMT -6
We can argue about the causes ... concussion worries, year-round activities, parents chasing scholarships, competition from other sports ... but there's no question they all have an affect on football, some more than others depending on the neighborhood. When I was in school, we didn't have lacrosse, volleyball, hockey or wrestling; concussions were something you wore with pride; and we definitely didn't have coaches telling their players to stick with one sport year-round if they want to get a scholarship. The question is what we do about it.
A few years ago, our underclass numbers were so low there was talk of not having a freshman team, and we had frosh filling out the JV team. But this year we're back to having over 100 kids (60-something in grades 10-12; the rest freshmen). No dramatic changes ... we didn't have spring practice or mandatory summer workouts; just a bunch of coaches who care about kids, a charasmatic strength coach, and back-to-back playoff runs. We went through a period where we were on the verge of coaching "against" folks (the crazy parents and administration that seemed intent on making things harder); decided it was more fun to inspire kids.
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Post by gccwolverine on Aug 11, 2018 18:27:47 GMT -6
Jesus Christ football isn't dying. More college programs football existed last year than at any other time in football history. I believe the number will increase this year as well. The sky is not falling just because someone feels a rain drop. Keep telling yourself that. Meanwhile, numbers continue to plummet around the nation at the HS and youth level. You realize you're and hs numbers in all sports are declining right? It's kind of like when the talking heads on ESPN say the NFL is in trouble because ratings are falling. Well no, ratings are falling everywhere because people don't watch TV anymore and the #1 rated show on TV across all nights is still NFL football. There were more colleges who fielded football programs in this country than ever before last year.
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Post by Chris Clement on Aug 11, 2018 19:56:42 GMT -6
I would like to see a study done in which we could get football enrollments pre & post year round activities. I have a sneaking suspicion the 24/7 football culture has SOME to do w/ declining Fb numbers. just a hunch If so it's because it increases the ratio of preparation to play. It's been pointed out that football has about the highest ratio of practice to play of team sports. For instance, it's been written that in baseball one might play twice as many hours as practice. Football's expanding to more of the calendar wouldn't bother me, if that meant more actual games of tackle football. It wasn't long ago that I learned that baseball season used to go from the first thaw of spring thru Thanksgiving -- and that if they had an extended thaw in winter they might get up games then too. Rugby and soccer are played most of the year too, and when intercollegiate football began, it was fall and spring. Basketball, indoors & out -- year round. Know why football got to be a fall-only game? That was a result of an effort by people who wanted to do away with the game entirely, and figured they could eventually phase it out by cutting it back by degrees. How were Ivy Leaguers supposed to start the season in June?
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Post by larrymoe on Aug 11, 2018 20:47:03 GMT -6
Keep telling yourself that. Meanwhile, numbers continue to plummet around the nation at the HS and youth level. You realize you're and hs numbers in all sports are declining right? It's kind of like when the talking heads on ESPN say the NFL is in trouble because ratings are falling. Well no, ratings are falling everywhere because people don't watch TV anymore and the #1 rated show on TV across all nights is still NFL football. There were more colleges who fielded football programs in this country than ever before last year. So, a 2-3 million kid decline from 2005 till now playing the game is nothing to worry about? Good to know.
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Post by blb on Aug 12, 2018 6:18:18 GMT -6
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Post by larrymoe on Aug 12, 2018 8:12:10 GMT -6
So, a 2-3 million kid decline from 2005 till now playing the game is nothing to worry about? Good to know. Thenumber of coaches who are out right lazy, cannot make their players better, and on top of that think their players are stupid, special ed is astonishing, and explains the drop in participation easily. So, a 3.2 million kid drop in participation, which is a 39% drop since 2005 is on bad coaching and easy to explain?
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Post by larrymoe on Aug 12, 2018 8:13:27 GMT -6
Enrollment may be down 13%, but particpation is down 39%.
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Post by IronmanFootball on Aug 12, 2018 8:27:49 GMT -6
It worries me. CTE research is always the go-to reason but I think it's much larger than that. I worry for the video game generation. I am not claiming this is you by any means, but I have a buddy who coaches at a small school (about 200) who is struggling to field a team (about 16). I was talking to him about it and the troublesome part is he refuses to address any issues that might be impacting his situation. He claims its all this soft video game culture (although we played video games 25 years ago too). He claims that concussions are a non issue (only a problem for guys in the NFL, otherwise he and his buddies would be struggling now) and refuses to do baseline testing. All the while relying on drills banned for safety reasons, and multi mile runs in gear. His practices tend to be a lot of standing around getting yelled at, followed by running then more getting yelled at. My point being, WE have to offer something great for these kids and not just blame them/society for dwindling numbers. Note I am not writing we make it easy, just be logical and engaging. The scary part is where is that guy's AD? How does he still have a HC job? I assume it's not what you know it's who you know in his case. If an AD hears about 10 mile runs and low turnout there should be a look into what's causing the issues. Again look at Maryland, football people are causing football issues.
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Post by blb on Aug 12, 2018 8:28:41 GMT -6
Enrollment may be down 13%, but particpation is down 39%.
Actually since 2002 Football participation in my state is down 17% (44,411 to 36,811).
Significant but in line with enrollment decline and long way from 39%.
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Post by larrymoe on Aug 12, 2018 8:44:32 GMT -6
Enrollment may be down 13%, but particpation is down 39%.
Actually since 2002 Football participation in my state is down 17% (44,411 to 36,811).
Significant but in line with enrollment decline and long way from 39%.
39% is nationally. As our population continues to grow.
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Post by bobgoodman on Aug 12, 2018 8:53:16 GMT -6
This is true too...the popul'n's been aging. However, much of that aging came earlier. The 1980s saw a decline in particip'n in some sports in the USA as the # of people the right age diminished. That was evident in rugby in the 2nd half of the 1980s after a boom in the 1970s, and I heard volleyball went thru something of a bust a little later.
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Post by bobgoodman on Aug 12, 2018 8:59:00 GMT -6
Enrollment may be down 13%, but participation is down 39%. I wonder how much enrollment would be down by if immigrants didn't count. And even those born here are probably less likely to play football if their parents are recent immigrants.
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Post by larrymoe on Aug 12, 2018 10:55:04 GMT -6
Enrollment may be down 13%, but particpation is down 39%. we figured its 15 kids a year. I can easily attribute that to adults who are full of it in kids eyes. That's 15 kids in every program in every state right? That is not a coaching problem.
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Post by larrymoe on Aug 12, 2018 13:20:49 GMT -6
That's 15 kids in every program in every state right? That is not a coaching problem. per class. 15 kids, per class, per program, in every state and you think that's a coaching problem?
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Post by silkyice on Aug 12, 2018 17:25:28 GMT -6
I coach in the county that this team is from and used to play them on a yearly basis. In the past 10 years the demographics of that school have changed dramatically. about 50 different languages are now spoken at the school with many immigrants arriving each year. that along with the fact that kids transfer out of that school to play football elsewhere in the county about did them in. i don't think it has anything to do w concussions..more of a cultural thing..FWIW, they are pretty good in soccer. LOL AS ALWAYS, There was more to the story. Thanks for filling us in.
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Post by fantom on Aug 12, 2018 17:28:31 GMT -6
I coach in the county that this team is from and used to play them on a yearly basis. In the past 10 years the demographics of that school have changed dramatically. about 50 different languages are now spoken at the school with many immigrants arriving each year. that along with the fact that kids transfer out of that school to play football elsewhere in the county about did them in. i don't think it has anything to do w concussions..more of a cultural thing..FWIW, they are pretty good in soccer. LOL AS ALWAYS, There is more to the story. Thanks for filling us in. The school population is 74% Hispanic. Also, as Jerry said, they're a smaller school in an area loaded with state powers.
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