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Post by coachfrisco on Dec 22, 2007 13:02:55 GMT -6
"There is NOTHING wrong with saying that something that is within the rules now, should not be fixed"
Right, but thats all you are saying. You aren't contributing anything to the discussion other than your opinion that a "loophole" should be closed to essentially ban this offense. Fine you made your point. As said above:
"Can somebody else please (if they want to) go ahead and Piggyback with Billyn and any others that want to spend their time laboring to change rules against the A-11 offense - to go and start another thread on this site?"
I tried to provide some first hand feedback about seeing the offense live and there weren't any questions asked of me about what I saw. ..only an insult that this is some kind of flag football game. That is what these forums should be about - learning about what other coaches are doing in the game of football. . .
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Post by brophy on Dec 22, 2007 13:40:32 GMT -6
I tried to provide some first hand feedback about seeing the offense live and there weren't any questions asked of me about what I saw. there are plenty of questions out there in its applications. We are all already aware of its POTENTIAL, CAPABILITES, BENEFITS, and that it is different. Unfortunately, the video in this thread to date, doesn't shed much light on the {coaching} questions. How you apply it, how players are involved, how defenses are stressed in various ways depending on fronts & coverages..... Here is an example; maybe your interest was piqued.....maybe you think it could work for you.... but now what? where are the brass tacks of application? Make no mistake - I am not criticizing this 'innovation'. I think it is fantastic. Also, THIS THREAD, is about the video....and unfortunately, it isn't the greatest footage to actually see anything.....maybe all our questions will be answered with a different clip (?) X................A........................U...C...Y.....B.................................Z .............................R..........2..............................E...................... .................................................QB............................................. for instance, How many times do 2,U,Y,B,R get touches? How do you train those positions? The VIDEO in this thread makes the offense look a lot like standard pistol...not exactly living up to the month-long hype that proceeded the footage.
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Post by a11coachhumphries on Dec 22, 2007 16:54:43 GMT -6
Hi Brophy. This is Steve Humphries, one of the Assistant Varsity Coaches on the Piedmont staff. I helped create this offense with Kurt and really appreciate your interest in our offense. I totally see that you are interested in the nuts & bolts of how this thing works, the method to the madness, reads, adjustments & techniques. I think more film clips will help. Seeing it live is obviously best. You can order (3) full game films from our videographer Griff Adams (510)-653-0606. I am also updating our www.a11offense.com web site with plays & other formations etc. . .Hopefully more progress this weekend. (Not trying to sell anything here, just letting you know where full game films can be acquired) We ran ~17 A-11 formations this year, and created system that all starts out of our "base" formation graphic. From there as we adjust XAR EBZ our base formation morphs into different looks. These adjustments into our formations can come in the form of a pre-snap shift onto the LOS (or) we can line up in the formation & go. . .Once we set our formation, we can then motion a man across the formation to create overloads or flood situations. We can adjust our 2 anywhere from side to side to help with pass pro too. With a 3 man line, teams tried to turn up the heat from the outside in almost every way possible. In our 10 regular season games we saw 8 different defensive schemes. We saw 2-2, 3-2, 4-1 fronts, zone blitz schemes, coverage switches, no rush, line stunts. It was great and it forced us to come up with new reads & techniques to counter the defense. For example, adjusting our Q2 with a creep motion helped with containing outside penetration. In terms of training positions, everyone starts off with base skills for their position, then everyone needs to know open field blocking techniques, QB's R&E need to know pass pro, and zone blocking. . things like that. . . Hope this provides a bit more insight. Best, Steve
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Post by brophy on Dec 22, 2007 17:37:06 GMT -6
your staff should run for public office...........
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Post by Coach Huey on Dec 22, 2007 18:45:11 GMT -6
. . . Hope this provides a bit more insight. . . . what exactly did you say? several have asked some fairly specific questions but i haven't been able to decipher the answers. the best i can gather is to "wait for more video". my apologies for seeming crude ... but if that is the case, then maybe we "jumped the gun" on promotion just a wee bit. as for my specific questions, i would like to know what you are looking for to determine who steps on/off? as in... what determines the playcalling within the system. obviously, matchups are key so what type of things - general - are you looking for on a side to determine if/what you call over there. (example: from trips-open with back weak - we get a 1-5 front weak we call qb lead draw over there, etc.)
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Post by kurtbryan on Dec 22, 2007 19:24:36 GMT -6
In terms of what determines what WR's step onto the line, and/or remain off...this first season of use we called it per play and DID NOT adjust that according to the D's look very often. Mostly had our plays called based on what we were seeing and expecting, etc.
* However, you just gave me a GREAT idea thank you!
So for this past season for example, we varied the formation according to offering the D a different amount of eligible WR's to a certain side so as to not let them get comfortable with our sets. For example, 2 x 2 for a few plays, then 3 x 2 for another, then 3 x 1 for another, etc.
Kurt
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Post by Coach Huey on Dec 22, 2007 19:34:17 GMT -6
what type of things did you call vs a 3-2 look when you were in some sort of "3x2" formation. by 3-2 i mean some type of nose with an edge player on end of los ... 2 lb's within the front
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Post by brophy on Dec 22, 2007 19:44:28 GMT -6
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Post by spos21ram on Dec 22, 2007 19:57:01 GMT -6
Maybe I'm way off here but as a high school coach (Not a Div 1 or NFL coach) I would be embarrassed to charge money for my game films or a teaching video I would make on my offense.
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Post by sls on Dec 22, 2007 20:02:56 GMT -6
Maybe I'm way off here but as a high school coach (Not a Div 1 or NFL coach) I would be embarrassed to charge money for my game films or a teaching video I would make on my offense. Hundreds and hundreds of guys make money off of their offense through videos and clinics.
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Post by kurtbryan on Dec 22, 2007 20:04:08 GMT -6
Some basics in terms of how we organize and facilitate the building blocks of the system.
...Brophy, I already answered your question earlier about the # of how many different player "touches" we get average per game. Usually 9 guys touch the ball per game, as many as 12 per game last season.
Building Blocks:
1. We break the field up into 3 Boxes (Red/White/Blue), from left boundary to left hash, between the hashes and from right hash to right boundary
2. This makes it easy to ID how many Def. Players are in each box prior to the snap
3. For our offensive playcalling it is easiest to call formations if almost every set adds up to at least the number 7 because you must have at least 7 men on L.O.S. when the ball is snapped.
For example: Our Base set is: 232...which translates to (2 men on the line in the Red Box, 3 men on the line in the White Box and 2 men on the line in the Blue Box).
This blossoms from our standard 3x3x3 alignment pre-snap NEAR but not on the L.O.S.
So, when we call, "Base" and a play it would go like this
"Base Stagger 199 Corner"
* The Stagger tells the # 2 Back to align like an UpBack for easier Pass Pro or Run Blocking.
** In terms of what we would call vs. the 3-2 Look Huey asked about:
a. We ID that as a 32 Front (meaning 5 guys in the White Box) b. Leads are good, Draws are good and quick passing game.
*And for the coach a few posts earlier that said he would be "embarrased" to charge money for his videos if he were a high school coach - that might be the most myopic thing I have read on this entire site. In the future if/when companies call you and want to publish a book or series of DVD's about your system - go ahead and decline it, otherwise think before you speak/type.
**And, you are also embarrased to use your real name on here, at least up until now.
Have a good night coaches, great stuff, gotta go.
Kurt
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Post by spos21ram on Dec 22, 2007 20:12:19 GMT -6
Maybe I'm way off here but as a high school coach (Not a Div 1 or NFL coach) I would be embarrassed to charge money for my game films or a teaching video I would make on my offense. Hundreds and hundreds of guys make money off of their offense through videos and clinics. I would think you would have to prove yourself and make a name first.
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Post by saintrad on Dec 22, 2007 20:26:56 GMT -6
not sure i know of very many HS coaches that have made a name for themselves outside of their local area/state. I doubt any of you know (or care) who Kent Wigle is, etc.
I am unsure as to the making money debate. If its for my own program it would be no cost for my kids or coaches. If it was a clinic situation then a modest cost to recover my expenses would be ok.
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Post by coachschro on Dec 22, 2007 21:06:44 GMT -6
To expand on what I think Brophy is asking:
with 11 players on the field show us how many yards(rushing+receiving) each player had for the season, example: 2-550yds 3-450 yds y- 400yds x-300yds b-200yds c-10yds
The purpose of knowing this would be why bother worrying about players a,b,c,d because they never are thrown to. So it looks real complicated to the defense, but really is only tuff to defend if more then 4 or 5 players ever touch the ball.
I love this idea and I'm excited about your answers.
We line up our qb 7 yards deep in our empty and take advantage of the scrimmage kick formation.
thanks in advance...
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Post by kurtbryan on Dec 22, 2007 21:19:30 GMT -6
Average Touches Best Guestimate per Game:
X...................R..................U...C...Y.......................E.......................Z ..........A.............................................................................B.......... ..........................................2......................................................... ...............................................1....................................................
Player & Avg. Touches (not attempts) Per Game:
X...........................4 A...........................4 R...........................4 2...........................10 1...........................35 Y............................2 E...........................4 B............................5 Z............................6
Give or take, but hard to be exact from memory tonight.
KB
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Post by coachschro on Dec 22, 2007 21:57:21 GMT -6
Great answer...That is what I was looking for.
Do C and U ever get thrown to?
This offense has endless possibilities!
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Post by kurtbryan on Dec 22, 2007 22:02:36 GMT -6
We had a couple of packages to throw to C and U, but had MORE than enough in our first year to install.
Next season more to come...
KB
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Post by kurtbryan on Dec 23, 2007 15:18:47 GMT -6
Below is another formation we ran regularly in the A-11 Offense called the, "43".
Which stands for 4 players on the L.O.S. in the Red Box and 3 players on the L.O.S. in the White Box. An Unbalanced look we shifted to from our Base set before setting on the L.O.S.
Some the the plays we ran this past season from the 43 set:
1. Dink Screen to either the Y or the 1 or 2 2. Quick Screen Left to X behind the Wall 3. Zoom motion the E from right to left, then Spot Pass to E behind the wall left 4. Roll Out Right with various comination routes 5. Standard Lead & Draw 6. Option L/R (When Our # 2 is Deep)
x....R....A....B...........................U...C...Y............................................ ..........................................................................E................Z...... ..............................................2.................................................... ....................................................1..............................................
* Your Play ideas would be great to read too out of this 43 set with or without motion, etc.
Hope you like it,
Kurt
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Post by shamespiral on Dec 23, 2007 23:13:46 GMT -6
Could be fun, too bad its against the rules
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 23, 2007 23:23:52 GMT -6
shamespiral--no offense, but you should try reading the majority of posts before you post in a thread. Coach Bryan and his staff were extremely diligent to ensure that their system would be considered legal under the current interpretations of the Federation rules. They played an entire season under these rules using their system.
I have said countless times that I think the offense doesn't follow the spirit of the rules, and is using a loophole in the federation rules that should be closed. That said, it is currently legal under those rules, as has been stated multiple times throughout this thread, and all others regarding the A-11.
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Post by coachorr on Dec 23, 2007 23:43:21 GMT -6
Against which rules? Are covered players or players with linemen numbers being thrown to and/or are down field? Then what is the problem. I agree with 5085, take some time to read before you spit out an answer.
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bhb
Junior Member
Posts: 259
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Post by bhb on Dec 23, 2007 23:56:00 GMT -6
Shamespiral,
What's against the rules?There's NOTHING illegal about this..
edit: should have kept reading before I posted- CoachOrr & 5085 beat me to it.. Didn't mean to beat a dead horse, just saw someone bashing the system incorrectly and jumped the gun.. Sorry for being redundant
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Post by spos21ram on Dec 24, 2007 0:21:18 GMT -6
Shamespiral, What's against the rules?There's NOTHING illegal about this.. edit: should have kept reading before I posted- CoachOrr & 5085 beat me to it.. Didn't mean to beat a dead horse, just saw someone bashing the system incorrectly and jumped the gun.. Sorry for being redundant Well I wouldn't say there's NOTHING illegal about it. Like it's been said a million times, it's a loophole in the rule. Which means, yes, it's technically legal. BUT....If the group of guys that wrote the federation rule knew this would have happened they would have worded it differently to ensure this could not happen unless a punt/kick took place. I have a serious question for the A-11 coaches. By no means am I trying to downgrade your program in this question. I'm sure behind closed doors you have wondered and talked about this..... Do you guys feel this offense is the reason for your success this year? I do not live in your state or even follow your states football but I have read several times that your division is weak. Do you think you would have been just as successful running say a spread offense but keeping your same philosophy, practice regiment, organization of practice/planning. And also can you credit your success on a year of having better athletes than you had there in the past?
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Post by coachorr on Dec 24, 2007 0:22:50 GMT -6
Well, my reaction was that something has to be wrong with it, but after reading other posts, looking at the video and seeing the formations. I just don't know what is wrong with it. Hats of to the staff who is using it and is successful with it.
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Post by spos21ram on Dec 24, 2007 0:40:19 GMT -6
I have no idea if you have always played in the division/conference you play in now so this example isn't the best but it does go with my point....
The Coast Guard Academy ( NCAA Divsion III) previously played in the Liberty Conference here on the east coast. This conference is the best of the 2 conferences we have in this area. From 1999-2005 they won just 14 games. In 2006 they moved to the New England Football Conference which is much weaker and have won there side of the Conference both of these two years.
There was an article in the New London Day (regional newspaper where they are located) that was in regards to small school high school coaches complaining they cannot compete with bigger schools. The writer was saying O how good the coaching staff of the Coast Guard Acad. has been to turn the program around. That it was so great that a small school is competing and beating public state schools. The writer was saying that the Coast Guard coache's office should be ringing off the hook with calls from small time high schools asking how he does it. How he can compete and be successful against bigger state colleges.
Since I coached and played in the NE Football Conference I know it is considered very weak. Equivilent to the sun belt conference in D1. I laughed when I read this article. I know the writer was trying to build up his home town team and coach but come on, it doesnt take a genious to realize they are so succesful cause they play very poor competition....And before you say maybe the coach ARE doing a better job than before. No they arnt because before when they were in the tougher conf. they played non-conf. games against NEFC schools and whooped up on them. Now they get to play them all the time. Now when they play Liberty schools they still get beat up on just like they did when they were in that conference. Nothing has changed btu their competition.
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Post by tog on Dec 24, 2007 10:29:52 GMT -6
shamespiral is from texas
it would be illegal here as an every down offense
at least that is how i read the rules on it as well
we don't use federation rules here we use ncaa rules
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bhb
Junior Member
Posts: 259
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Post by bhb on Dec 26, 2007 18:08:02 GMT -6
shamespiral is from texas it would be illegal here as an every down offense at least that is how i read the rules on it as well we don't use federation rules here we use ncaa rules Right, but they're using it in Cali- so there's nothing illegal about it since Cali uses FED rules.. Don't get me wrong, I know where you're coming from on this one Tog, and I agree- different rules in different areas.. I'm with you on that one- but for someone (not you) to just rather rudely dismiss it like that without even considering the other possibilities (like FED rules) came off a bit pompous.. Again, I know what you're saying, and usually I'm right there with you- but this offense seems to bring out the venom in people for some reason.. Is this something I would use? Doubtful.. But just as I'm not going to order the DVD's when they come out, I'm not going to just take shots at it almost like a reflex like it seems is taking place.. CoachBryan is a patient dude- LOL.. I see the potential controversy of it, but I don't get where the hatred and vitriol for it comes from- and I'm a rules stickler..LOL.. Not my brand of football, but under NFHS rules it's perfectly legal.. Ahh, either way, it's still football, and I'd rather be talking football than anything else- so it's all good.. ;-)
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Post by theprez98 on Dec 26, 2007 18:31:58 GMT -6
Boy now I know why I haven't been back in a week. Is this a forum for self righteous blowhards to cut down what other coaches are doing? In reading this entire thread it sure sounds like it. . . I agree with everything you've said. If a forum such as this would have been around when the forward pass was legalized, I imagine there would have been the same sort of complaining about the "spirit" of the game.
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Post by tog on Dec 27, 2007 13:15:41 GMT -6
shamespiral is from texas it would be illegal here as an every down offense at least that is how i read the rules on it as well we don't use federation rules here we use ncaa rules Right, but they're using it in Cali- so there's nothing illegal about it since Cali uses FED rules.. Don't get me wrong, I know where you're coming from on this one Tog, and I agree- different rules in different areas.. I'm with you on that one- but for someone (not you) to just rather rudely dismiss it like that without even considering the other possibilities (like FED rules) came off a bit pompous.. Again, I know what you're saying, and usually I'm right there with you- but this offense seems to bring out the venom in people for some reason.. Is this something I would use? Doubtful.. But just as I'm not going to order the DVD's when they come out, I'm not going to just take shots at it almost like a reflex like it seems is taking place.. CoachBryan is a patient dude- LOL.. I see the potential controversy of it, but I don't get where the hatred and vitriol for it comes from- and I'm a rules stickler..LOL.. Not my brand of football, but under NFHS rules it's perfectly legal.. Ahh, either way, it's still football, and I'd rather be talking football than anything else- so it's all good.. ;-) agreed my point about him being from texas is that i can totally see a texas coach with little exposure to other state's hs football at all assuming that everyone uses the ncaa rules
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bhb
Junior Member
Posts: 259
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Post by bhb on Dec 27, 2007 15:22:32 GMT -6
[/quote]
agreed
my point about him being from texas is that i can totally see a texas coach with little exposure to other state's hs football at all assuming that everyone uses the ncaa rules
[/quote]
Yeah, I knew what you meant- and I'm right there with you, couldn't agree more.. Don't you just wish all states would adopt the same rule book?..LOL.. We should all just go NFHS and be done with it..;-).. Just kidding- I know you Texas guys love that NCAA stuff..
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