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Post by dytmook on Jun 19, 2016 16:05:13 GMT -6
We can't make the summer mandatory. We work out 3 times a week. Then 10 camp days which we pretty much pile in July to give kids June to do basketball, vacation, and things like that. All we do is hold them accountable on the depth chart. I think it helps we work with kids for other situations. Are you on a baseball team? Okay, go take care of that commitment. Another reason we try to schedule most things late in the summer. We want kids around and stress communication, just like you would in your real life with a job. our kids are getting better about it after we had some pretty crappy leaders the past few years. I saw some good encouraging and kids holding kids accountable this week.
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Post by nltdiego on Jun 19, 2016 16:40:49 GMT -6
I like having clear rules where a coach doesnt have to be a judge. What if a kid misses because he has a personal trainer? in my opinion, it is the same thing.
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Post by wolverine55 on Jun 19, 2016 16:59:40 GMT -6
Not that I've posted much, but I'll probably have to bow out because I just think we're too different philosophically on this. To me, a kid missing parts of workouts for an ACT Prep class and a kid missing because he is choosing to work out with his own personal trainer is not even close to the same thing...
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Post by fantom on Jun 19, 2016 17:25:12 GMT -6
I like having clear rules where a coach doesnt have to be a judge. What if a kid misses because he has a personal trainer? in my opinion, it is the same thing. Why not be the judge? That's what the big bucks are for.
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Post by funkfriss on Jun 19, 2016 17:34:44 GMT -6
I like having clear rules where a coach doesnt have to be a judge. What if a kid misses because he has a personal trainer? in my opinion, it is the same thing. Why not be the judge? That's what the big bucks are for. Couldn't agree more. Assess the situation and how it relates to your core philosophy and values. Make the decision and stick to it. Some are going to agree with you and the rest can kiss your @$$
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Post by fantom on Jun 19, 2016 17:50:08 GMT -6
Why not be the judge? That's what the big bucks are for. Couldn't agree more. Assess the situation and how it relates to your core philosophy and values. Make the decision and stick to it. Some are going to agree with you and the rest can kiss your @$$ If I'm going to get fired I'm going to do it my way.
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Post by 19delta on Jun 19, 2016 18:13:43 GMT -6
My mistake...I thought you were referring to regular, in-season practices. I think you are looking at this all wrong. It would be very easy for him to not come at all but instead he is making an effort to come to at least some of the practice (and arguably the most important part). I think the kid should be commended for that. In fact, I find it pretty disturbing that a high school football coach (and I am assuming a teacher) is faulting a kid who apparently is serious enough about the SAT that he is sitting though an 7-hour-a-day summer course to get a better score. How do you see this situation being resolved? If it is up to you, would you tell the kid to not bother playing, that he is off the team? Or are you going to let him be on the team but play kids who aren't as good as he is to punish him? And how do you think it will go over when you try and justify your actions to the kid's parents and your administration? That you are essentially screwing a kid because he chose academics over football? Honestly, it sounds like you have something personal against this kid. Is he a troublemaker? Bad teammate? It sounds like you have an axe to grind and you are using these missed practices to justify your feelings towards him. Delt, I'm finding it a bit scary how much I'm agreeing with you lately...but I totally agree here too. Honestly, if the kid is sitting through the aforementioned SAT class and is going to go straight from that to however much of summer practice he can, I actually think that's a great example of him having commitment and is something the rest of the team should see as a positive example. Yeah...I really just need to keep my pro-gun, anti-police anarchist rants to myself and just talk football!
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Post by 19delta on Jun 19, 2016 18:14:25 GMT -6
I like having clear rules where a coach doesnt have to be a judge. What if a kid misses because he has a personal trainer? in my opinion, it is the same thing. What if the personal trainer is better than the coaches?
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 19, 2016 18:23:44 GMT -6
I like having clear rules where a coach doesnt have to be a judge. What if a kid misses because he has a personal trainer? in my opinion, it is the same thing. Well, that is your preference. I don't think you will find too many coaches here agreeing with that, since that is one of the biggest complaints most have here regarding administrative decision making. Had a kid once who was going to be the starting quarterback. He chose to miss a week of summer workouts because his brother (who had played QB at the same school a few years previous) was in from college and he thought it would be better to work with the brother and the dad. He even had a few of our WR's skip workouts to work with them as well. Clear rules say punish right! Did I mention the kid's name was Eli, his brother's name was Peyton, the Dad's name was Archie and the "work with" was actually attending the Manning Passing academy. But clear rules right? Kid misses Wednesday&Thursday practice because of ____________. Does he get to play on Friday? Start? What do the clear rules say? What if the blank is filled in by "sickness and death of mother" and what if the kid is a 3 year starter who committed to LSU? I through in that last qualification not to show the kid is a war daddy, but because if he has been a 3 year starter and committed to LSU, chances are that those Wed and Thurs practices probably have precious little impact on his upcoming Friday performance. nltdiego as I mentioned, I have been there, and understand your concerns. However you seem hell bent on finding a way to "MAKE" the kids attend. The secret is to develop a program where they hate to miss. One thing you haven't said (or at least I haven't seen it) is if you can even MAKE these things "mandatory" in your association.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 19, 2016 18:26:21 GMT -6
I like having clear rules where a coach doesnt have to be a judge. What if a kid misses because he has a personal trainer? in my opinion, it is the same thing. What if the personal trainer is better than the coaches? I knew you were going to chime in with that one...I don't know how I would handle the situation you create with your son because it isn't strictly about lifting weights.
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Post by jg78 on Jun 19, 2016 18:27:09 GMT -6
Do you guys let kids miss all summer and play in fall? I know broad question but just curious what different program philosophies and rules are. Where we live summer cannot be made mandatory b/c it is not an official part of the season. With that said, I have only once had a kid miss the whole summer and be GOOD enough to start for us and that was b/c our team was 1-8 that year. Most teams he would've never seen the field. Maybe it's because I have always coached at small schools where the difference between a starter and backup is often substantial, but I have had a lot of players through the years who could have missed all summer and still easily started. Two months of weight lifting and conditioning isn't going to make up for a big difference in talent.
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Post by CS on Jun 19, 2016 18:29:20 GMT -6
I like having clear rules where a coach doesnt have to be a judge. What if a kid misses because he has a personal trainer? in my opinion, it is the same thing. Well, that is your preference. I don't think you will find too many coaches here agreeing with that, since that is one of the biggest complaints most have here regarding administrative decision making. Had a kid once who was going to be the starting quarterback. He chose to miss a week of summer workouts because his brother (who had played QB at the same school a few years previous) was in from college and he thought it would be better to work with the brother and the dad. He even had a few of our WR's skip workouts to work with them as well. Clear rules say punish right! Did I mention the kid's name was Eli, his brother's name was Peyton, the Dad's name was Archie and they "work with" was actually attending the Manning Passing academy. But clear rules right? nltdiego as I mentioned, I have been there, and understand your concerns. However you seem hell bent on finding a way to "MAKE" the kids attend. The secret is to develop a program where they hate to miss. That what I'm talking about!
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Post by fantom on Jun 19, 2016 18:48:21 GMT -6
I like having clear rules where a coach doesnt have to be a judge. What if a kid misses because he has a personal trainer? in my opinion, it is the same thing. Well, that is your preference. I don't think you will find too many coaches here agreeing with that, since that is one of the biggest complaints most have here regarding administrative decision making. Had a kid once who was going to be the starting quarterback. He chose to miss a week of summer workouts because his brother (who had played QB at the same school a few years previous) was in from college and he thought it would be better to work with the brother and the dad. He even had a few of our WR's skip workouts to work with them as well. Clear rules say punish right! Did I mention the kid's name was Eli, his brother's name was Peyton, the Dad's name was Archie and the "work with" was actually attending the Manning Passing academy. But clear rules right? Kid misses Wednesday&Thursday practice because of ____________. Does he get to play on Friday? Start? What do the clear rules say? What if the blank is filled in by "sickness and death of mother" and what if the kid is a 3 year starter who committed to LSU? I through in that last qualification not to show the kid is a war daddy, but because if he has been a 3 year starter and committed to LSU, chances are that those Wed and Thurs practices probably have precious little impact on his upcoming Friday performance. nltdiego as I mentioned, I have been there, and understand your concerns. However you seem hell bent on finding a way to "MAKE" the kids attend. The secret is to develop a program where they hate to miss. One thing you haven't said (or at least I haven't seen it) is if you can even MAKE these things "mandatory" in your association. Coach, as you know I once coached at a national power. I moved with my boss to another school that hasn't had the same success. Our first year, weight room attendance and performance could best be described as pitiful. Now, in our fifth year, we need two shifts, one for the varsity and one for JV. The varsity guys are moving real weight and take pride in it. The difference hasn't been that we make rules. The difference has been that we, the coaches, are in there and pushing. Personally, I do not enjoy the weight room. The kids will never know that because I do enjoy winning and winning comes with bigger and stronger players. So we grind. And we're getting better. If a kid has to miss, though, and he has a good reason, then he does.
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Post by 19delta on Jun 19, 2016 18:54:16 GMT -6
What if the personal trainer is better than the coaches? I knew you were going to chime in with that one...I don't know how I would handle the situation you create with your son because it isn't strictly about lifting weights. What is there to "handle"?
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Post by 19delta on Jun 19, 2016 19:01:40 GMT -6
The secret is to develop a program where they hate to miss. Coach- You have posted a lot of big hits on these forums over the years but this might be your Stairway to Heaven!
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Post by s73 on Jun 19, 2016 19:07:27 GMT -6
Where we live summer cannot be made mandatory b/c it is not an official part of the season. With that said, I have only once had a kid miss the whole summer and be GOOD enough to start for us and that was b/c our team was 1-8 that year. Most teams he would've never seen the field. Maybe it's because I have always coached at small schools where the difference between a starter and backup is often substantial, but I have had a lot of players through the years who could have missed all summer and still easily started. Two months of weight lifting and conditioning isn't going to make up for a big difference in talent. I agree w/ you coach. I have kids that probably COULD HAVE missed also & still started for us. But.....the reason they could've missed a whole summer and started for us was b/c they put a ton of time in during the off season and are big, fast strong kids. I think most kids who commit to the off season rarely miss the summer. That would be a rare breed. FOR US, kids who don't show up in the summer, who show up in the fall are usually guys who want to wear a jersey on Fridays & are a warm body on the scout team.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 19, 2016 19:08:04 GMT -6
I knew you were going to chime in with that one...I don't know how I would handle the situation you create with your son because it isn't strictly about lifting weights. What is there to "handle"? The slippery slope it creates. Just as a hypothetical thought exercise. I have a USAW cert as well. I have worked with the 2004 USA Olympic Lifting Coach (who is head of the coaching tree that has spawned the S&C coaches at : LSU, BAMA, SOUTH CAROLINA (previously florida) FLORIDA STATE, Tennessee...just to name a few. NOTE: not trying to compare johnsons here. "You" are just kind of the placeholder here for any other guy who knows their stuff as well. What happens when a guy who knows there stuff..but I know my stuff too...run into this situation. I have zero doubt that if I wanted to fork over $500 bucks I could have pretty little letters behind my name. So I wonder how I would address it. You stated "what if he is better"..which is valid. However, I think we have all either experienced or know coaches who have experienced the dad who wants jr to work out with him and do bench and bi's all day. Again, just an interesting thought exercise for me. I would think that in general, the kid would benefit purely from a lifting standpoint more with the one on one. But as I mentioned, a lot goes on during the summer that I wouldn't want the kid to miss out on. Kids like that (a coach's kid) have great potential to be a leader. Lots of lost leadership opportunities doing squats at home with dad. I guess to tie in my little tangent here...I would hope that I have a program where someone like yourself would not WANT their kid to miss either. That's when you have a good program.
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Post by 19delta on Jun 19, 2016 19:21:12 GMT -6
What is there to "handle"? The slippery slope it creates. Just as a hypothetical thought exercise. I have a USAW cert as well. I have worked with the 2004 USA Olympic Lifting Coach (who is head of the coaching tree that has spawned the S&C coaches at : LSU, BAMA, SOUTH CAROLINA (previously florida) FLORIDA STATE, Tennessee...just to name a few. I have zero doubt that if I wanted to fork over $500 bucks I could have pretty little letters behind my name. So I wonder how I would address it. You stated "what if he is better"..which is valid. However, I think we have all either experienced or know coaches who have experienced the dad who wants jr to work out with him and do bench and bi's all day. Again, just an interesting thought exercise for me. Well, either my kid is better than the other kids at his position or he isn't. I trust that his coaches want to win and will play the best players, regardless of what program they followed over the summer. And my kid (despite having a huge a-hole for a dad) is really coachable. He is the only kid in his class who did not miss a single practice the last 3 years. He has also played wherever the coaches have played him even though that was not the ideal place for him to play. I can compartmentalize. My kid will be the best athlete on the JV team this year (based on objective, measureable criteria). But I recognize that does not automatically equate to success on the field.
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Post by 19delta on Jun 19, 2016 19:26:01 GMT -6
...not trying to compare johnsons here... I seldom hit bottom but I do give the sides HELL!
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Post by natenator on Jun 19, 2016 20:00:16 GMT -6
I like having clear rules where a coach doesnt have to be a judge. What if a kid misses because he has a personal trainer? in my opinion, it is the same thing. We had a kid miss significant football this year because his mom was dying from cancer. This same kid missed all but one practice in the week leading up to our championship game because he was busy tending to his family and making funeral arrangements for his mom who just passed away. Not only did he start but he played the entire game. If we had of used your archaic rules without judgment then we would have denied a kid some semblance of normalcy during an extremely difficult moment in his life. Every situation is different and e don't endeavor to treat players equally, we endeavor to treat them fairly - equity not equality .
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Post by vanden48 on Jun 19, 2016 22:24:37 GMT -6
When I was in HS I missed every summer because my parents were divorced and my father lived in a different state. And He has me for the summer. I busted my tail lifting with him and when I came back 20 pounds heavier every fall everyone thought I was on the roids. I had no control over being with the team for the summer. I made sure I went to the team camp in the beginning of the summer, and made sure I came back early for hell week.
You need to take it on a case by case basis. Kids who play 3 or 4 sports you might not have in the spring. Kids have other things going on in the summer and here I have to compete with basketball camps, wrestling camps, FFA, FBLA, family vacations. I just let the parents and players know that they need to be active in the off-season. I say weights are mandatory but I do make exceptions.
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Post by nltdiego on Jun 19, 2016 22:32:28 GMT -6
Thank you everybody who gave me their opinions. I agree and disagree to some of the things mentioned.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 20, 2016 6:03:25 GMT -6
Thank you everybody who gave me their opinions. I agree and disagree to some of the things mentioned. Just curious--- Would you have punished the kid who spent a week working with his brother and dad?
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Post by blb on Jun 20, 2016 6:41:43 GMT -6
Couldn't agree more. Assess the situation and how it relates to your core philosophy and values. Make the decision and stick to it. Some are going to agree with you and the rest can kiss your @$$ If I'm going to get fired I'm going to do it my way.
HS coaches used to get fired for losing too much.
Now they get fired for not winning enough, not winning the "right" way (running the 'wrong' offense), or the decisions they make.
I can't imagine someone risking his job by having the best player at any position on the bench because someone else had better Summer attendance, as has been suggested in this thread.
Not a "principle" I'd be willing to die for.
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Post by freezeoption on Jun 20, 2016 6:53:09 GMT -6
We are on 4 pages on something that is common sense. One of my favorite college coaches told me in one of my classes don't make laws you are not willing to enforce. The guy at the top of this page, if you don't want to be the judge then don't. But, if it is your job then you better have huevoes. Everybody wants to pass the buck, but when it comes down to lamb penis cutting time are you going to do it. If not, don't make it a rule. It may come back to bite you in the arse. I'm sitting out this year cause my school said I didn't win enough games. We play 8 man. We had 12 kids. One quit because he couldn't make the practices, which he quit the year before because of the same thing. I kicked one off because he kept giving excuses on missing practice. We played with 10, some games finished with seven, but those kids never missed a practice. Summer is summer. If you can enforce and it is big to you do it, reward whatever. Move on
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Post by hunhdisciple on Jun 20, 2016 7:07:39 GMT -6
I like having clear rules where a coach doesnt have to be a judge. What if a kid misses because he has a personal trainer? in my opinion, it is the same thing. We had a kid miss significant football this year because his mom was dying from cancer. This same kid missed all but one practice in the week leading up to our championship game because he was busy tending to his family and making funeral arrangements for his mom who just passed away. Not only did he start but he played the entire game. If we had of used your archaic rules without judgment then we would have denied a kid some semblance of normalcy during an extremely difficult moment in his life. Every situation is different and e don't endeavor to treat players equally, we endeavor to treat them fairly - equity not equality . I think this is the single biggest thing. We used to have rules about missing game week practice meant not playing. If you missed the O or D practice, you didn't play on that one. Missed both, you don't dress. Three years ago, we ended up ditching those rules. 1 kid had to bury his dad on Wednesday. Started at MLB that Fridat. Had a kid almost completely vanish off the face of the earth with his mom. No one knew where they were. Her parents knew she was safe, but not where she was. Turns out her abusive ex-husband was looking for them the same time the cops were looking for him. She wasn't waiting around to see if he kept his promise of murder. Kid came back to school on that Friday, and kicked for us that same night. Last year, had a kid miss most of the week. He went to the beach with his siblings for Fall Break. Posted tons of pictures on social media about boozing it up and partying. He came back Thursday, was ready to play. Excited to play. Ended up sitting in the student section. He wasn't treated equally. He didn't behave equally. His situations weren't equal. Treating kids equally is rarely going to be the right move. If you can make it manditory, then find a punishment for those who miss to make them not miss again. If it's not manditory, just coach up the kids who are there to hopefully push the kids who aren't there even more. We currently haven't seen much of anything from one of our starting DE's. Last year he was one of "the guys" so he thinks it's going to be handed to him. It's not mandatory to be there right now. And he knows that. But when he comes in July, he's going to see someone who was his backup last year. We've pushed the kid all winter and spring to compete for his spot. And, unless something happens, he's taken his spot. If a guy who is there is equal to a guy who wasn't, play the guy who was there. But, at the end of the day, I think you've got to play the guys who give you the best chance of winning.
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Post by groundchuck on Jun 20, 2016 11:30:18 GMT -6
Do you guys let kids miss all summer and play in fall? I know broad question but just curious what different program philosophies and rules are. My personal philosophy would be to coach in a program where the culture dictates if you didn't put the work in there is somebody who just got better than you because he did. Actually to state that more accurately it would be the culture demands excellence from everyone. Now he plays.....unless the other guy is simply better. But in the culture around him he is probably there anyway. In reality I coach in a school where the culture dictates lifting is not important. (This has been a steady decline in the last couple years). If I benched kids for not lifting I would not have a team, and also would not have the support of the administration if we did that. In our state we cannot make anything mandatory. We have kids who are dedicated and work their tails off for each other, but there are many who don't and have to play anyway. Up the road from where I coach is a bigger school. There, unless you are a dude, you'd better lift or they will find somebody with as much talent and more heart and play him. But that is why they have five state titles.
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Post by 60zgo on Jun 22, 2016 20:50:43 GMT -6
It's been said before, but I think common sense is required. We have implemented an incentive program for summer and we try to make it fun for the kids, and provide rewards for coming. But I'm not stressed about the ones that miss for XYZ reason. My two best receivers are big into travel AAU basketball, and they have been in the weight room a grand total of three days between the two of them. They know when actual practice starts and they will be there. They will be my best guys no matter what(Both are over 6 feet tall and can run)... I would be an idiot for punishing those guys for going on the road and competing in their primary sport all summer.
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Post by hammer66 on Jun 23, 2016 5:43:13 GMT -6
Do you guys let kids miss all summer and play in fall? I know broad question but just curious what different program philosophies and rules are. My personal philosophy would be to coach in a program where the culture dictates if you didn't put the work in there is somebody who just got better than you because he did. Actually to state that more accurately it would be the culture demands excellence from everyone. Now he plays.....unless the other guy is simply better. But in the culture around him he is probably there anyway. In reality I coach in a school where the culture dictates lifting is not important. (This has been a steady decline in the last couple years). If I benched kids for not lifting I would not have a team, and also would not have the support of the administration if we did that. In our state we cannot make anything mandatory. We have kids who are dedicated and work their tails off for each other, but there are many who don't and have to play anyway. Up the road from where I coach is a bigger school. There, unless you are a dude, you'd better lift or they will find somebody with as much talent and more heart and play him. But that is why they have five state titles. Great stuff in this THREAD. this is right on point and close to the situation we face. I personally LOVE lochness viewpoint on the issue. He really puts things in perspective.
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Post by CBNIndian on Jun 24, 2016 13:29:01 GMT -6
Common sense is the main thing. Death in the family we excuse the kid. Hospital or emergency situation we excuse the kid. Our rule is it is excused but you still sit the first quarter so that the kid that practiced that day gets to play. We then play the kid that missed starting in the 2nd quarter. Builds depth and makes you pay attention to the back up a little more during practice because you never know when a situation will happen. That is season practice.
Summer workouts are the same. Death in family or divorced situation (have a kid going through that right now) you do what you have to do to take care of your family but if you miss because of anything else we tell the kid he can be on the team. We give each kid 3 misses after that we start questioning his work ethic and character. If a kid misses more than 3 we tell him he is still part of the team. He can participate in all team functions once the season starts. He will be a scout team player and hold dummies. We make sure all our kids know this before summer workouts start. I have the feeling that the kid that doesn't workout and participate in the summer he will let you down some time in the season so put your time into someone else. I believe in doing things my way because if I get fired I can say I did it in a way I thought was right.
Funny thing people may say I'm archaic but I don't really care. Our numbers are sky high for a class A school and kids know the best players that work hard get on the field. QB missed practice the first week of the playoffs last year. Didn't play him. I still dressed him because if we got in touble I was going to put him in and not punish the team or the seniors for his actions. Had a plan to run him later if he had to go in. Many people hollering to play the QB as the game went on and pulled away in the 4th quarter. We won by 28 with a back up. People thought we should have won by more. Still stuck to my rules but wasn't stupid. You have to know the situation. I as far as summer I don't bend. They don't come they don't play but they are still on the team.
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