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Post by 10dencyofdeception on May 3, 2015 7:29:03 GMT -6
Getting a feel for what leverage is and can do is greater than knowing the HS formations/plays
Great tackling and schematicly disciplined freshman is greater than spending time installing concepts meant for Varsity
Kids that love to play for each other, enjoy the work required at practice, & learn to compete with tenacity, focus and humility is far more critical than losing kids that drop FB as they go to and through HS
I say all this because practice time, inexperience, game clock, playing time, injuries, and varying skill sets require, at times, far more diligence at the MS level. MS teams have less coaches per player, with no athletic trainer on hand. In the inner city, it's not uncommon to find kids that think offensive tackles tackle and will do it when they get nervous despite being coached otherwise, and wonder why the kick plays are "Special Teams".
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Post by rsmith627 on May 3, 2015 7:41:29 GMT -6
At the first program that I coached for, one of the middle schools did run all of our stuff and our other feeder school did not. The middle school that did was happy to do so because our HC and most of his staff have been there since 1996. This is a program that contends on a regular basis and therefore the staff isn't likely going anywhere aside from the occasional assistant who wants to be a HC himself (this does not describe most of the guys though, they are content to be great coordinators, position coaches, and win a lot of games every year).
We weren't successful because of that, and the kids that came in from the other school that did nothing similar to us (we were more shotgun wing-t based and they ran wishbone with a ton of belly) weren't really that far behind.
I know that a school that I may be joining if their administration ever gets on point and hires me to teach there just met with their feeders all the way down through little league to get them on the same page. Will this help us at the high school? Only if we're there for 10 years and the kids coming in knowing how to block, break down, and tackle. Running the same system is nice if kids learn our vocabulary, but overrated.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2015 7:46:51 GMT -6
to get that many people pulling in the same direction and with some sort continuity is more headache than it could be possibly worth. If you can get youth and ms kids to get into a stance, block and tackle with any sort of proficiency, you have something, but to expect a system to be taught with any sort of continuity, is a lot of clinic talk if you ask me.
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Post by rsmith627 on May 3, 2015 8:29:04 GMT -6
to get that many people pulling in the same direction and with some sort continuity is more headache than it could be possibly worth. If you can get youth and ms kids to get into a stance, block and tackle with any sort of proficiency, you have something, but to expect a system to be taught with any sort of continuity, is a lot of clinic talk if you ask me. And pointless. Kids play in high school for four years. That's a lot of time to teach them. This is why it is vital to have great freshman and JV coaches.
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Post by blb on May 3, 2015 11:24:13 GMT -6
I wouldn't say pointless.
I know that three of the most successful programs in our area (maybe more) have Vertical Continuity from at least 5th-12th grades.
When kids get to HS they have been running HS stuff for four years. HS coaches don't have to teach the basics, they can polish and add things, which puts them ahead of competitors that don't have such a program.
It's one of the things that guarantees they WILL have the same coach several years down the road running the same base system.
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Post by fantom on May 3, 2015 11:45:02 GMT -6
My general rule would be. That if a coach comes to me and says "you should run our stuff...it would really help..yadada"... My response is I want a document signed by the AD that promises you will be the head coach and running the EXACT same system 8 years in the future... It never happens. Coaches need to treat MS level as it's own level and not pre-freshman. I wonder what some of you would do if the Local JC/Uni came down and said "you know we like recruiting from your school...itd really help out if you would run our stuff..." But in some programs, MS ball IS pre-freshman.
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Post by coachd5085 on May 3, 2015 11:56:45 GMT -6
I wouldn't say pointless. I know that three of the most successful programs in our area (maybe more) have Vertical Continuity from at least 5th-12th grades. Coach, I 100% guarantee you that any benefit of running "strong rt slot spr 2 Y banana" from 5th grade up is insignificant compared to myriad of other benefits of a closely knit feeder program. The ability to instill expectations, athlete retention, program excitement etc. All are much more important than mimicking plays and sets. Except for : -They need to reteach the basics to that pudgy slow 7th grader center who only learned to block man on or back and then blossomed into a 6'0 220 soph who can lean and bend and is now a DE. -They need to reteach that tough hardhitting 6th grade Mike linebacker who was an early maturer and is now too small to effectively play that position. -They need to reteach the stud 8th grade Wing-T FB who can help out on Varsity, but won't beat out Varsity FB at that position this year. They need to teach the basics to any move ins Need we go on? Keep in mind, early maturing and late blooming kids are EXTREMELY common. Like I said, running the same system with 11,12,13 year olds is like a Billionaire winning the lottery. Obviously doesn't hurt him, but not really significant.
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Post by coachd5085 on May 3, 2015 12:15:52 GMT -6
I think the bottom line when it comes to this topic is :
If it is something that fits, and is seamless implemented, then it is a no brainer. If it is something that needs to be "imposed", it probably isn't worth that effort.
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Post by fantom on May 3, 2015 12:25:26 GMT -6
I think the bottom line when it comes to this topic is : If it is something that fits, and is seamless implemented, then it is a no brainer. If it is something that needs to be "imposed", it probably isn't worth that effort. And if you believe that there's something that you think that you really need to be successful (an in-school athletics weights program would be another example) don't take a job unless that's going to be a part of the deal.
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Post by lochness on May 3, 2015 15:10:19 GMT -6
I'd rather the youth / MS coaches just teach great fundamentals, establish a love for the game and for each other, and not backstab/ purposefully undermine the high school program. If we have that going, I could care less about what they run. If they come to me, I will spend as much time and energy as they want. But, I'm not pushing at all.
Teach the game, love the kids, don't badmouth me. Simple.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2015 15:24:32 GMT -6
I'd rather the youth / MS coaches just teach great fundamentals, establish a love for the game and for each other, and not backstab/ purposefully undermine the high school program. If we have that going, I could care less about what they run. If they come to me, I will spend as much time and energy as they want. But, I'm not pushing at all. Teach the game, love the kids, don't badmouth me. Simple. Regardless of which side of the argument you are one, your opinions of the other side should never be heard by the kids. If you are willing to do it to another adult, you are willing to do it to the kids.
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Post by coachd5085 on May 3, 2015 16:08:58 GMT -6
I guess us HS coaches should just work concede and work miracles with guys when we get them because they could run outside and give the ball to their fastest, best athlete and crushed everybody running the I in middle school... I missed the comment the first time around, BUT it is comments like this that generally add to the issues. The thought process that "well, since you are a middle school/jr high coach, so you must not have a clue what to do without our intervention" is not a universally true concept. In some places, sure, just like some places have morons as HS varsity coaches as well. And to say that having success coaching with players who didn't run the same offense ias 12/13 year olds as they do in HS is "Working Miracles"? Might be the biggest "c'mon man" on the board this year.
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Post by Coachbragg on May 3, 2015 16:50:19 GMT -6
I come from a small school (70 kids) with just 1 middle school feeding our program. My first year as varsity HC, the MS HC decided that they would go to an 8 man schedule. This made it difficult for many freshmen to make the transition to high school ball in the next few years. But their biggest problem was that the coach refused to use my terminology at the middle school. Running a 4 man front he called the 2 down lineman "guards". That would be fine but we called them tackles. Kids took nearly the whole season to learn what defensive tackles were. This is just one example but it makes such a difference having a feeder system that buys in to your program's system & philosophy. The past two seasons our MS has had a new coach and both only wanted to run our system and teach our culture. It has already paid dividends as freshman are ready to contribute at the varsity level
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Post by coachd5085 on May 3, 2015 16:53:05 GMT -6
I come from a small school (70 kids) with just 1 middle school feeding our program. My first year as varsity HC, the MS HC decided that they would go to an 8 man schedule. This made it difficult for many freshmen to make the transition to high school ball in the next few years. But their biggest problem was that the coach refused to use my terminology at the middle school. Running a 4 man front he called the 2 down lineman "guards". That would be fine but we called them tackles. Kids took nearly the whole season to learn what defensive tackles were. This is just one example but it makes such a difference having a feeder system that buys in to your program's system & philosophy. The past two seasons our MS has had a new coach and both only wanted to run our system and teach our culture. It has already paid dividends as freshman are ready to contribute at the varsity level
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Post by gibbs72 on May 4, 2015 7:59:57 GMT -6
I would be thrilled if your MS coaches just taught the fundmentals the same as the HS staff (terminology mainly). I'd like to have kids show up as freshman that have at least been exposed to the proper way to get into a stance, arms in on a block, basic tackling (Heads Up), etc.
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Post by 33coach on May 4, 2015 8:55:33 GMT -6
I would be thrilled if your MS coaches just taught the fundmentals the same as the HS staff (terminology mainly). I'd like to have kids show up as freshman that have at least been exposed to the proper way to get into a stance, arms in on a block, basic tackling (Heads Up), etc. I feel bad for yall, U14 ball here is pretty good, and it sounds like middleschool ball everywhere else is one step above (if that) "friday night tikes". us and our opponents spend a lot of time in the off season, prepping, we go to coaches clinics, share knowledge. most of us put in a lot of film study in the season, as well as practice and coaches meetings (not to mention the fact that most of us hold positions in the organization as well...) sounds like someone needs to focus on building a program first...and worry about what they are running second....
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Post by rsmith627 on May 4, 2015 13:32:58 GMT -6
I wouldn't say pointless.
I know that three of the most successful programs in our area (maybe more) have Vertical Continuity from at least 5th-12th grades.
When kids get to HS they have been running HS stuff for four years. HS coaches don't have to teach the basics, they can polish and add things, which puts them ahead of competitors that don't have such a program.
It's one of the things that guarantees they WILL have the same coach several years down the road running the same base system. Sure. Pointless probably wasn't the best choice of words. I have been in high school programs that have had that continuity, and in programs that have not. I would personally have a hard time has a HC going down to my feeders and saying you HAVE to run my sh!t. I'd be happy to teach anybody who is willing to listen how to install it and adjust it, and if they use it great. I've been in programs where the HC has said run my stuff, and then gave the feeders no support. Why should they run your stuff if it's going to put them at a disadvantage because they don't understand the system? I think as HS guys if we expect our feeders to run this, we need to be there as a resource. A lot of guys just don't want to take the time to do that, kids have a bad experience coming up and don't expect it to be any different when they're older and you lose players that way. I think both sides have pros and cons.
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Post by olinedude on May 4, 2015 13:49:48 GMT -6
I guess us HS coaches should just work concede and work miracles with guys when we get them because they could run outside and give the ball to their fastest, best athlete and crushed everybody running the I in middle school... I missed the comment the first time around, BUT it is comments like this that generally add to the issues. The thought process that "well, since you are a middle school/jr high coach, so you must not have a clue what to do without our intervention" is not a universally true concept. In some places, sure, just like some places have morons as HS varsity coaches as well. And to say that having success coaching with players who didn't run the same offense ias 12/13 year olds as they do in HS is "Working Miracles"? Might be the biggest "c'mon man" on the board this year. Never said MS coaches don't have a clue. I was one once, and I coached with a couple guys who are great coaches. Likewise, I've been around HS coaches who are clueless. And no, I don't think thats a "c'mon man" at all. Sure you can have success with guys that are talented. However, when you have an average talent group playing against all teams that have that vertical integration it feels like working miracles. I'll go back to my first example, when a kid has been snapping under center the whole time he's been playing and starts gun snapping as a freshman he wont be ready to play varsity until he's a junior. A kid that has done it for 2 years in MS might be ready, if he's good enough, to play on varsity as a sophomore. Maybe its just where I'm coaching, but here everybody runs at least a version of the HS system when they are in MS. If you're not doing that, you're behind. If nobody in your area is, sure your on a level playing field.
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Post by 33coach on May 4, 2015 14:01:36 GMT -6
I missed the comment the first time around, BUT it is comments like this that generally add to the issues. The thought process that "well, since you are a middle school/jr high coach, so you must not have a clue what to do without our intervention" is not a universally true concept. In some places, sure, just like some places have morons as HS varsity coaches as well. And to say that having success coaching with players who didn't run the same offense ias 12/13 year olds as they do in HS is "Working Miracles"? Might be the biggest "c'mon man" on the board this year. Never said MS coaches don't have a clue. I was one once, and I coached with a couple guys who are great coaches. Likewise, I've been around HS coaches who are clueless. And no, I don't think thats a "c'mon man" at all. Sure you can have success with guys that are talented. However, when you have an average talent group playing against all teams that have that vertical integration it feels like working miracles. I'll go back to my first example, when a kid has been snapping under center the whole time he's been playing and starts gun snapping as a freshman he wont be ready to play varsity until he's a junior. A kid that has done it for 2 years in MS might be ready, if he's good enough, to play on varsity as a sophomore. Maybe its just where I'm coaching, but here everybody runs at least a version of the HS system when they are in MS. If you're not doing that, you're behind. If nobody in your area is, sure your on a level playing field. let's say I'm your MS coach..and you want me to run a system I've NEVER coached before....let's say air raid or a spread option system.. Is it better for me to run your stuff and probably go 2-14 in 2 years because I don't know how to adjust your scheme? And give you kids who don't know how to win or havnt seen success...and possibly quit... Or is it better for me to go 9-7 in 2 years with a system I can adjust and have been running for 7 years and give you kids who can block/tackle/work hard and know what it means to be a *insert mascot here*
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Post by fantom on May 4, 2015 15:57:12 GMT -6
I missed the comment the first time around, BUT it is comments like this that generally add to the issues. The thought process that "well, since you are a middle school/jr high coach, so you must not have a clue what to do without our intervention" is not a universally true concept. In some places, sure, just like some places have morons as HS varsity coaches as well. And to say that having success coaching with players who didn't run the same offense ias 12/13 year olds as they do in HS is "Working Miracles"? Might be the biggest "c'mon man" on the board this year. Never said MS coaches don't have a clue. I was one once, and I coached with a couple guys who are great coaches. Likewise, I've been around HS coaches who are clueless. And no, I don't think thats a "c'mon man" at all. Sure you can have success with guys that are talented. However, when you have an average talent group playing against all teams that have that vertical integration it feels like working miracles. I'll go back to my first example, when a kid has been snapping under center the whole time he's been playing and starts gun snapping as a freshman he wont be ready to play varsity until he's a junior. A kid that has done it for 2 years in MS might be ready, if he's good enough, to play on varsity as a sophomore. Maybe its just where I'm coaching, but here everybody runs at least a version of the HS system when they are in MS. If you're not doing that, you're behind. If nobody in your area is, sure your on a level playing field. We don't have middle school football here but we may have played schools that do in the playoffs. I don't know and I don't care. We also don't see it as unusual for a freshman or sophomore to not be ready to contribute on the varsity. That's why there's a JV team. We have had sophomore starters and even freshman starters. Sure they're talented but not necessarily D.1 talents. It doesn't take a miracle, just coaching. That's what the big bucks are for.
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Post by Coach Huey on May 4, 2015 16:49:22 GMT -6
how about this:
a) if your MS & HS are "aligned" then please explain why... and if possible, how it is "aligned"
or
b) if your MS & HS are not "aligned" please explain why.
if you answered a) what, if anything, would you do differently if you could. what would need to change in order for those adjustments to be possible. if you answered b) what, if anything, would you do differently and/or what would need to change in order for those adjustments to be feasible.
after that, everything else is just background noise. as in, i don't need someone to tell me i'm behind or i'm ahead. i don't need someone to tell me how they just wouldn't run someone else's system. i don't need to hear how you wouldn't be very good running xyz system, etc. it is not beneficial to the conversation for you to tell me stories about how program A is successful because they are aligned from 3rd grade all the way up or how program B is successful and they don't align anything at all, not even 11th grade to 12th grade.
please, just answer the question based on a) or b). and the follow up would basically revolve around if you are a unified staff 7-12 or not.
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Post by coachjm on May 4, 2015 18:28:45 GMT -6
A
Our program is aligned from 3rd grade up. Our 7th grade through 12th grade is aligned because they are part of our overall program, I am responsible for hiring/firing coaches evaluating them and their program. Our 3rd-6th program chose to do the same as us and we support this...
How it is aligned: Entire staff and youth director clinic together in offseason We do sign-ups all together on the same day Weight program is all run by same strength coach and philosophy Summer Camps are all done together with entire staff Pictures are all done together (love the entire 3-12 picture) Equipment is all managed by same coach Fundraisers are all done together Scheme is all the same Banquet is done together at end of season
Nothing really we would change, I'm hopeful we can stay here for a while as the entire staff is a great group of guys who enjoys being/working together and the scheme part is just and extension of us all having the common goal of teaching football...
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Post by vince148 on May 6, 2015 15:48:00 GMT -6
My general rule would be. That if a coach comes to me and says "you should run our stuff...it would really help..yadada"... My response is I want a document signed by the AD that promises you will be the head coach and running the EXACT same system 8 years in the future... It never happens. Coaches need to treat MS level as it's own level and not pre-freshman. I wonder what some of you would do if the Local JC/Uni came down and said "you know we like recruiting from your school...itd really help out if you would run our stuff..." I would love that...But I haven't found a HC that would allow that yet.
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Post by canesfan on May 6, 2015 19:07:14 GMT -6
In a perfect world yes. I think it's important to include the MS coaches, as if you don't in our area they just undercut you at every turn. Get them involved, give them a role on Fridays, invite them to practice when applicable.
If/when I get a HC job I'm going to give our HUDL playbooks to our MS staff. Clinic with them, bring them to the coaches clinics with them. Invite them to coaches meetings. To me, the better prepared they, they better prepared our players will be to play in our program.
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Post by CatsCoach on May 7, 2015 13:38:57 GMT -6
We don't have a Middle school team per-say! We have weight classes, with that being said we don't run what our High Schools run. But both High School have said they will help and provide us with anything we need clinics, ect. Some of the HS coaches will come out to our practices and help out as well.
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Post by spos21ram on May 7, 2015 17:33:06 GMT -6
Did I just read a poster saying it would take 2 years for an incoming freshmen to learn to shotgun snap? WTF??
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jbp84
Freshmen Member
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Post by jbp84 on Jun 28, 2015 15:47:14 GMT -6
Last season, our conference (Southern Illinois, St. Louis metro area) began an arrangement where the JFL/Junior Football leagues started playing each other the day after we played. So for instance, if we played a team on Friday night, our town's JFL club played their JFL club the following day. Middle School-affiliated football is rare in our area...it's almost all private teams/clubs so there's no official oversight or affiliation with the district but the clubs have all been receptive to this idea.
Regarding our system at the MS level, the 7th and 8th grade teams run the same offense and defense we run, use the same terminology, etc. Their younger aged teams run whatever they want. During the off-season our coaches meet with their staffs a few times and teach them our offense, how we teach things, our terminology, our drills, everything. They also have access to our HUDL accounts and can watch our film. We help them run their camp, and their coaches are welcome to observe our summertime camps/practices. The 7th and 8th graders practice with our Freshman team in the summer as they go through their installs and conditioning. This will only be the second season of this arrangement so it's too early to tell if it's going to lead to long-term success, but I think it's been good so far. Honestly though, I'm more concerned about teaching the kids to block and tackle safely instead of running our same O or D. Our school district is 61% military (Scott Air Force Base) so we won't even see a lot of these kids in high school, or maybe only for a year or two, due to their parent(s) getting transfer orders.
I think a lot of comes down to the relationship that you have with your MS/JFL program. We've been fortunate to work with a good group of guys who commit themselves to learning and teaching our system.
**Edited to add as far as "dumbing down" our stuff for the MS kids, we teach them our basic blocking/running schemes (power and IZ), and just a few of the pass concepts we run. We want them to know the basics and terminology more than knowing our entire playbook.
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Post by **** on Jun 28, 2015 17:02:30 GMT -6
The middle school and youth level is all about having fun, I do not care what they run. I don't care how many games they win; but winning usually translates to having fun. Teach them the basics with good fundamentals. They should have an idea how to block and tackle by the time they get to me. Some middle school and youth coaches will burn kids out before I get them. Your job is to teach them the basics and GET THEM TO ME.
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Post by gibbs72 on Jul 1, 2015 16:40:18 GMT -6
I'm our DC. I don't get all fired up if they are not carbon copies of our scheme. I've engaged the MS DC (he even helps me on Friday nights charting), so he's using our position terminology and he's brought his iPad to our camps to record a few basic drills so they can repeat them at practice. So, I'm thrilled. The kids are learning what a 3 tech is, what our strong side LB is called, who our FS reads, etc as well as the basic fundamentals of tackling.
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Post by coachwoodall on Jul 2, 2015 8:23:12 GMT -6
We've got the MSs coming TTh in the summer. They lift with their coaches while we do our 7-7/OL&DL work. Then we send the varsity home and spend an hour helping the MSs coaches install.
We have 3 feeder MSs; 2 larger ones that have a separate 7th and 8th grade teams and compete in a MS conference that basically is the same conference as the HS, and a smaller one (it's a K-8 school) that plays other MS teams that feed much smaller schools and only have a combined 7th/8th grade team.
Defensively we are working on 2 read (since it takes some time to learn) country C3, and C1. The DL works on base tech, slant tech, and simple blitzes (no long stick, crossing, gap exchange, etc...)
Offense is installing quick gun game concepts, sprint out, and a couple of quick screens. In the run game, they're learning inside zone, gap scheme, and a trap. It might sound like a lot, but we all worked together with a MS spring practice for 2 weeks, so most of this is now about getting repetitions.
The biggest problem we've had is the ones that show up consistently have pretty good grasp of the stuff and just need a few reminders; it's the kids that are hit and miss.
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