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Post by fantom on Oct 17, 2013 11:17:25 GMT -6
I think we're making a mistake by focusing so much of the discussion on play-calling verbiage. To me simplifying means cutting down on the number of plays, blocking schemes, route options, coverage checks, etc.
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Post by spos21ram on Oct 17, 2013 11:18:27 GMT -6
Interesting debate. Im a Youth coach. About 15 seasons ago I started in on a What You Hear is What You Do play calling system(s). It has a very distinct blueprint that is flexible. Nobody has a harder time with retention than the average Youth player. Simplifying a play call is counter productive because it actually forces them to retain more. So those of you all for simplifying a play call....are wrong IMO. I have seen the difference what no thinking play calls will do for the youngest of minds. Its easier to execute when your brain in not going on full memory alone. If a play call gets a little wordy...so what...your players are only listening to a particular part of the play call anyway. Football is hard....why fight it and create more memorization? Makes no sense too me anymore. My take. I don't agree with this at all. Long wordy play calls is not the answer. Makes it worse in my opinion. But Fantom is right, we are talking about two different things.
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Post by blb on Oct 17, 2013 11:50:51 GMT -6
Verbiage we can control.
Sometimes opponents affect how complex our schemes are.
For example, defensively we see everything from Single Wing to Spread (except Wishbone and Veer). We can't play just one front and Monster Cover 3 against all of that.
30 years ago we could get away with only 4-5 run plays from a couple of formations. Defenses are more sophisticated now and so we have to use a couple more runs and formations (and throw more) to combat them.
I am all for simplifying and am constantly trying to accomplish that without being a few bullets short in the chamber on Friday nights.
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Post by mahonz on Oct 17, 2013 12:05:48 GMT -6
Interesting debate. Im a Youth coach. About 15 seasons ago I started in on a What You Hear is What You Do play calling system(s). It has a very distinct blueprint that is flexible. Nobody has a harder time with retention than the average Youth player. Simplifying a play call is counter productive because it actually forces them to retain more. So those of you all for simplifying a play call....are wrong IMO. I have seen the difference what no thinking play calls will do for the youngest of minds. Its easier to execute when your brain in not going on full memory alone. If a play call gets a little wordy...so what...your players are only listening to a particular part of the play call anyway. Football is hard....why fight it and create more memorization? Makes no sense too me anymore. My take. I don't agree with this at all. Long wordy play calls is not the answer. Makes it worse in my opinion. But Fantom is right, we are talking about two different things. Agree with Fantom as well. Disagree on the play call design thing. It has really helped my Smurf teams over the years. Just my take.
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 17, 2013 12:13:16 GMT -6
You only need what you need!
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Post by fantom on Oct 17, 2013 12:23:20 GMT -6
Verbiage we can control. Sometimes opponents affect how complex our schemes are. For example, defensively we see everything from Single Wing to Spread (except Wishbone and Veer). We can't play just one front and Monster Cover 3 against all of that. 30 years ago we could get away with only 4-5 run plays from a couple of formations. Defenses are more sophisticated now and so we have to use a couple more runs and formations (and throw more) to combat them. I am all for simplifying and am constantly trying to accomplish that without being a few bullets short in the chamber on Friday nights. I'm a big believer in multiplicity on defense for that reason. We have five basic coverages in our playbook and some have several variations. BUT we never go into a game with five coverages. Each is designed to do something specific. Last week we played a Wing T team, this week a Pro I, next week a run-heavy Spread. Obviously we won't try to defense them in the same way but we won't overload them each week either. Against the Wing T we played one coverage, which is a part of the standard package that we use against Wing T, the entire game. I doubt that we'll run it again this year. This week we'll run two basic coverages plus two blitz concepts. Next week it will be something different but the number of concepts will the about the same. So, yeah we have a pretty big toolbox but we don't take the whole toolbox to every game.
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Post by IronmanFootball on Oct 18, 2013 10:48:11 GMT -6
I've been in a one-word spread system, the wing-t, and in a west coast 40wordstogetanisooutofyourmouth system... gotta say one-word spread does it for me. Easy to teach the OL, easy to see who did what wrong, just easy.
Can't you just tell the QB which way to boot with "rip" or "liz"?? so if I have trips right, "passing combo" rip my QB boots to the trips, liz is away... now your back knows which way to fake and/or set edge protection based on the rip/liz... seems easier than strong right hail to trips 134 naked 79 y drag (pretty sure we had that play call in the WC system).
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Post by silkyice on Oct 18, 2013 11:10:43 GMT -6
I have the best of both worlds. We have a pretty descriptive but not too long play-calling system. 128go is buck sweep right. 1 tells the FB to go to the 1 gap. It also tells the team we are in the 100 series. 2 says that the 2 back (HB) is getting the ball. 8 tells the hole. Our base blocking scheme is down, so need to say that. G tells the right guard to pull - he is always the g. O tells the left guard to pull - he is always the o.
128go is not to hard to say for bucksweep right. Waggle left is 128BLUExg. That tells everyone that we are faking 128 but running BLUE - QB sprint left. X tells the left side to x block and g tells the right guard to pull. I will not bore you with any other details.
But here is the beauty of what we do. I think that is already pretty simple, but 128go is play number 64 on the wrist band and 128BLUExg is play number 73 on the wristband. ALWAYS. It has been that way for three years. So guess what, I just call out or signal in or code in play 64 and we all know what play to run.
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Post by John Knight on Oct 18, 2013 11:29:04 GMT -6
So just call it 64!
HAHAAHAHAHA!!!!!!!
like I said, Battleship! It can be anything if everyone knows what it means!
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Post by blb on Oct 18, 2013 11:49:21 GMT -6
Isn't having to learn a wrist band number and the corresponding play twice as much, i.e. 64 AND 128go?
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Post by fantom on Oct 18, 2013 11:56:09 GMT -6
Isn't having to learn a wrist band number and the corresponding play twice as much, i.e. 64 AND 128go? Which leads me back to the same question that I asked in the thread about defensive verbiage: What do you do when you run no-huddle?
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Post by mahonz on Oct 18, 2013 12:00:33 GMT -6
I have the best of both worlds. We have a pretty descriptive but not too long play-calling system. 128go is buck sweep right. 1 tells the FB to go to the 1 gap. It also tells the team we are in the 100 series. 2 says that the 2 back (HB) is getting the ball. 8 tells the hole. Our base blocking scheme is down, so need to say that. G tells the right guard to pull - he is always the g. O tells the left guard to pull - he is always the o. 128go is not to hard to say for bucksweep right. Waggle left is 128BLUExg. That tells everyone that we are faking 128 but running BLUE - QB sprint left. X tells the left side to x block and g tells the right guard to pull. I will not bore you with any other details. But here is the beauty of what we do. I think that is already pretty simple, but 128go is play number 64 on the wrist band and 128BLUExg is play number 73 on the wristband. ALWAYS. It has been that way for three years. So guess what, I just call out or signal in or code in play 64 and we all know what play to run. Funny thing....love the Wing T but its play calling system is what inspired me to start replacing digits with words when teaching youths after my first Wing T stint in 1995-ish. Im convinced when the Wing T purists sat down many years ago and created "the system"....Jack Daniels was present.
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Post by John Knight on Oct 18, 2013 12:07:57 GMT -6
and Jim Beam, old Granddad and Evan Williams!
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Post by silkyice on Oct 18, 2013 12:08:50 GMT -6
So just call it 64! HAHAAHAHAHA!!!!!!! like I said, Battleship! It can be anything if everyone knows what it means! Correct and we do!! But do not tell me that when y'all name boot as biscuit, that you don't tell the kids that biscuit means boot. Same thing. It has two names. Why not just call it boot???
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Post by silkyice on Oct 18, 2013 12:10:39 GMT -6
Isn't having to learn a wrist band number and the corresponding play twice as much, i.e. 64 AND 128go? Which leads me back to the same question that I asked in the thread about defensive verbiage: What do you do when you run no-huddle? We just call 64 or signal 64 or yell 4264 or 6418 or fresno46 or 6489lsu or 9064lsu. It all means the same thing. 64.
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Post by silkyice on Oct 18, 2013 12:13:00 GMT -6
Isn't having to learn a wrist band number and the corresponding play twice as much, i.e. 64 AND 128go? What is your play name for boot? If it is biscuit, do you explain biscuit as it is boot? If so, then that is TWO names also.
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Post by silkyice on Oct 18, 2013 12:14:06 GMT -6
I have the best of both worlds. We have a pretty descriptive but not too long play-calling system. 128go is buck sweep right. 1 tells the FB to go to the 1 gap. It also tells the team we are in the 100 series. 2 says that the 2 back (HB) is getting the ball. 8 tells the hole. Our base blocking scheme is down, so need to say that. G tells the right guard to pull - he is always the g. O tells the left guard to pull - he is always the o. 128go is not to hard to say for bucksweep right. Waggle left is 128BLUExg. That tells everyone that we are faking 128 but running BLUE - QB sprint left. X tells the left side to x block and g tells the right guard to pull. I will not bore you with any other details. But here is the beauty of what we do. I think that is already pretty simple, but 128go is play number 64 on the wrist band and 128BLUExg is play number 73 on the wristband. ALWAYS. It has been that way for three years. So guess what, I just call out or signal in or code in play 64 and we all know what play to run. Funny thing....love the Wing T but its play calling system is what inspired me to start replacing digits with words when teaching youths after my first Wing T stint in 1995-ish. Im convinced when the Wing T purists sat down many years ago and created "the system"....Jack Daniels was present. I won't disagree with that, but my system is not the old wing t system of play calling. It is a hybrid of Hugh Wyatt's system that I tweaked/created.
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Post by John Knight on Oct 18, 2013 12:18:37 GMT -6
You are cracking me up!
I get it, the play is still in your playbook as 128 go, right? You can call it whatever you want there is still a LONG NAME. That is my point, you can have a green slot spider2 y banana and call it battleship. That has nothing to do with simplifying your offense. To simplify you have to cut down the number of plays or formations or passes you have in your weekly list of plays.
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Post by mahonz on Oct 18, 2013 12:22:32 GMT -6
Funny thing....love the Wing T but its play calling system is what inspired me to start replacing digits with words when teaching youths after my first Wing T stint in 1995-ish. Im convinced when the Wing T purists sat down many years ago and created "the system"....Jack Daniels was present. I won't disagree with that, but my system is not the old wing t system of play calling. It is a hybrid of Hugh Wyatt's system that I tweaked/created. Ah....So where the heck did 88 Super Power come from? It makes no logical sense.
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Post by planck on Oct 18, 2013 12:23:59 GMT -6
I believe that the inimitable Pete Jenkins once said something to that effect: '...that's just our word. Call it ham sandwich if you want. It's just a word.'
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Post by blb on Oct 18, 2013 12:24:22 GMT -6
Isn't having to learn a wrist band number and the corresponding play twice as much, i.e. 64 AND 128go? What is your play name for boot? If it is biscuit, do you explain biscuit as it is boot? If so, then that is TWO names also. If you're asking me, we call it 54 Boot, 82 Boot (fake play 54 or 82, Boot away from play fake).
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Post by fantom on Oct 18, 2013 12:24:47 GMT -6
Which leads me back to the same question that I asked in the thread about defensive verbiage: What do you do when you run no-huddle? We just call 64 or signal 64 or yell 4264 or 6418 or fresno46 or 6489lsu or 9064lsu. It all means the same thing. 64. Yeah, I get that. I'm talking about the Spider 3 Y Banana crew.
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Post by silkyice on Oct 18, 2013 15:13:22 GMT -6
You are cracking me up! I get it, the play is still in your playbook as 128 go, right? You can call it whatever you want there is still a LONG NAME. That is my point, you can have a green slot spider2 y banana and call it battleship. That has nothing to do with simplifying your offense. To simplify you have to cut down the number of plays or formations or passes you have in your weekly list of plays. I agree completely. The thread took a turn and I commented on that turn about verbage.
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Post by silkyice on Oct 18, 2013 15:21:33 GMT -6
What is your play name for boot? If it is biscuit, do you explain biscuit as it is boot? If so, then that is TWO names also. If you're asking me, we call it 54 Boot, 82 Boot (fake play 54 or 82, Boot away from play fake). Then you can't no huddle correct? Surely you or your QB doesn't yell 54 Boot and then you run a boot? If you check wristbands or have a signal for it, then that means your team has two things to learn also. Or am I missing something?
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Post by silkyice on Oct 18, 2013 15:28:16 GMT -6
I won't disagree with that, but my system is not the old wing t system of play calling. It is a hybrid of Hugh Wyatt's system that I tweaked/created. Ah....So where the heck did 88 Super Power come from? It makes no logical sense. Not sure if this what you are asking or not. Wyatt's system uses two numbers if the wb or hb runs it and 1 number if the fb runs it. 88 super power means fb goes to 8 since first number. Hole is 8. The left wb/hb knows he gets the ball since he is opposite the call. Power is his blocking scheme and super tells the qb to lead thru also. Mine is similar, but I always use three digits. I would call the play 828ko. Neither is better or worse.
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Post by 33coach on Oct 18, 2013 18:08:34 GMT -6
Ah....So where the heck did 88 Super Power come from? It makes no logical sense. Not sure if this what you are asking or not. Wyatt's system uses two numbers if the wb or hb runs it and 1 number if the fb runs it. 88 super power means fb goes to 8 since first number. Hole is 8. The left wb/hb knows he gets the ball since he is opposite the call. Power is his blocking scheme and super tells the qb to lead thru also. Mine is similar, but I always use three digits. I would call the play 828ko. Neither is better or worse. We use the Wyatt style numbering system its very easy. First number = fullback Second number = POA The back furthest away from POA gets the ball...nearest back is part of the blocking call. It works great for two back offenses as well.
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Post by coachhunt on Oct 18, 2013 18:20:04 GMT -6
To me, effective simplifying doesn't relate to scheme OR calls, but to technique. Neither matters if you can't execute it, so to me, if you run IZ 10 different ways, that can be simple, since the technique (and thereby the majory of the learning) is the same on all 10.
I try to find ways that minimizes the different techniques and skills that are required, so that we can become really good at a few of these! Then by combining these techniques we can run a lot of different schemes.
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Post by mahonz on Oct 18, 2013 20:13:28 GMT -6
Ah....So where the heck did 88 Super Power come from? It makes no logical sense. Not sure if this what you are asking or not. Wyatt's system uses two numbers if the wb or hb runs it and 1 number if the fb runs it. 88 super power means fb goes to 8 since first number. Hole is 8. The left wb/hb knows he gets the ball since he is opposite the call. Power is his blocking scheme and super tells the qb to lead thru also. Mine is similar, but I always use three digits. I would call the play 828ko. Neither is better or worse. Makes sense now....I was thinking maybe it meant pull 8 into the 8 hole.
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Post by blb on Oct 19, 2013 6:57:44 GMT -6
If you're asking me, we call it 54 Boot, 82 Boot (fake play 54 or 82, Boot away from play fake). Then you can't no huddle correct? Surely you or your QB doesn't yell 54 Boot and then you run a boot? If you check wristbands or have a signal for it, then that means your team has two things to learn also. Or am I missing something? We COULD no huddle, choose not to. If we did we'd just call "254" or "282" ('2' meaning Boot with Guard pulling.) Or "Battleship."
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Post by coach2013 on Oct 20, 2013 9:16:30 GMT -6
Not sure if this what you are asking or not. Wyatt's system uses two numbers if the wb or hb runs it and 1 number if the fb runs it. 88 super power means fb goes to 8 since first number. Hole is 8. The left wb/hb knows he gets the ball since he is opposite the call. Power is his blocking scheme and super tells the qb to lead thru also. Mine is similar, but I always use three digits. I would call the play 828ko. Neither is better or worse. We use the Wyatt style numbering system its very easy. First number = fullback Second number = POA The back furthest away from POA gets the ball...nearest back is part of the blocking call. It works great for two back offenses as well. I always thought that system was odd.
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