|
Post by chipprjonz10 on Aug 22, 2013 19:50:38 GMT -6
Does this exist on paper? Here in NY, a few coaches I have talked to said some drills are illegal. Some examples are Bull in the ring, monkey rolls, and Oklahoma (lay flat on back with helmets touching and on whistle get up as fast as you can and tackle the ball carrier). Any truth to this or are drills like this something "you shouldn't do" in case a kid gets hurt and tries suing you, arguing that these drills are not football related that applies to game like situations?
|
|
bigdny
Freshmen Member
Posts: 24
|
Post by bigdny on Aug 23, 2013 3:43:27 GMT -6
No truth at all coach. NYS follows NFHS rules all the way. Bull in the Ring has gotten a bad rep over the year and is always used as the example of bad drills to use. I think that if a coach closely monitors that drill and uses good sense in choosing matchups then it could be effective. (Just had to add my 2cents on that)
|
|
|
Post by huskerhoyahawk on Aug 23, 2013 3:53:01 GMT -6
I've heard that Bull in the Ring is banned, but never seen it written anywhere. That being said, I see no real point in the drill.
|
|
|
Post by rystaylo on Aug 23, 2013 8:45:17 GMT -6
hell our DBs do bull in the ring during pregame. its only like 5 yds apart though
|
|
|
Post by coachdennis on Aug 23, 2013 8:47:24 GMT -6
I always tell my coaches to apply the "witness stand" test. If you found yourself on the witness stand after a kid got hurt, could you defend the drill as one that replicates game conditions? Is it one that is generally accepted by other coaches as being an effective drill? I think that "Bull in the Ring" fails this test, which is why you don't want to run it. I saw a youth coach years ago run a drill he called "Ultimate", which was basically macho bull#$%$ with kids having to use any means possible to get by one another and tackle a bag at either end. What you ended up with was kids rolling around on the ground wrestling, forearms to the neck, grabbing ankles, etc. Not surprisingly, kids were getting hurt. Who would have guessed?
The reality is that this is a contact sport, and there is a risk of injury. It is very clear, though, that we as coaches have a responsibility to mitigate those risks as much as reasonably possible. Running Okie (with appropriate matchups) is a legitimate football drill. Simulates game conditions, works on important skills - it passes all the tests. Running gassers in extreme heat, Bull in the Ring, etc., don't pass the common sense test.
Just in passing, that witness stand scenario is where you would be asked if you were certified, and when you last attended a clinic...
|
|
|
Post by rystaylo on Aug 23, 2013 9:05:27 GMT -6
whats so bad about bull in the ring if you don't hit in the back? we run it where the guy in the middle calls out who he wants to hit
|
|
|
Post by coachphillip on Aug 23, 2013 9:06:07 GMT -6
My favorite stupid drill: I was running late getting to practice for my freshman squad. It was supposed to be a defense day, but I told the OC to just run offense and we would make up the day later on in the week. So as I'm jogging up to the field I see one of my kids, brand new to the game and as wet behind the ears as you could be, standing with his back turned to a full charging beast of a middle backer, the single freakiest athlete I have ever coached. They were twenty yards apart to start and when the backer was 4 yards away, my OC blew a whistle and the little guy had to spin around and "stand and fight the block like a man." Kid lowered his shoulder to protect himself, backer destroyed him, OC laughed and clapped him on the back, kid suffered a separated shoulder. I started screaming "What the eff is going on here?!" OC says "I was warming up the defense for you." It took the whole staff to hold me back from "warming him up".
If your drill doesn't simulate playing conditions, have variables that you can control for safety, practice important skills, or hold up to coach's "witness test" then it should not be a part of your practice, illegal or not.
|
|
|
Post by coachphillip on Aug 23, 2013 9:07:47 GMT -6
whats so bad about bull in the ring if you don't hit in the back? we run it where the guy in the middle calls out who he wants to hit I don't think that's what most of us would call Bull in the Ring. One coach I knew ran it by calling out numbers. Another ran it by silently pointing. One is vastly different from the other.
|
|
|
Post by John Knight on Aug 23, 2013 9:48:01 GMT -6
No Animal Drill!
|
|
|
Post by Chris Clement on Aug 23, 2013 11:30:38 GMT -6
I love monkey rolls, just because they're fun. They don't really have a purpose beyond practicing falling and getting up and they don't fit into our practices, but I always enjoyed doing them.
The problem I have with Bull in the Ring is the charge. It's not a bad drill if they start from a stance, it gets a good vibe going to do about five minutes of that, but having people ramming into one another is not really useful.
|
|
|
Post by John Knight on Aug 23, 2013 11:43:30 GMT -6
this is a much better ring drill
|
|
|
Post by 33coach on Aug 23, 2013 12:26:47 GMT -6
this is a much better ring drill we got this drill its called Sumo, i cant remember if its a Dave Potter drill or a Dave Cisar Drill..but we love it
|
|
|
Post by Chris Clement on Aug 23, 2013 12:56:16 GMT -6
this is a much better ring drill That's exactly what I'm talking about.
|
|
|
Post by coachphillip on Aug 23, 2013 13:01:56 GMT -6
I always knew Bull in the Ring to be one guy surrounded by a circle of his teammates. The coach would either point to, yell the number of, or walk the circle and push players to charge the player in the middle and deliver a blow.
|
|
|
Post by coachphillip on Aug 23, 2013 13:02:28 GMT -6
We run that Navy drill. We call it King of the Ring. Good stuff.
|
|
|
Post by powerfootball71 on Aug 23, 2013 14:46:01 GMT -6
Don't see the point of bull in the ring. Mabey backer coachs could use it. Oklahoma how ever is one of my favs. If the drill is not game like I don't run it. Spent a good amount of time watching a nfl team practice no sleds no chutes if its not game like they don't do it so I don't ether. My one exception is monkey rolls . I see no really vaule in doing them but my mother god bless her heart loves them and always asks about them so I practice them for the sole reason mom can see them in pre game. Have had hc's give me {censored} about doing them but monkey rolls go in bottom line
|
|
|
Post by coachphillip on Aug 23, 2013 14:51:08 GMT -6
Had a RB coach who swore by monkey rolls for ball protection.
|
|
|
Post by 33coach on Aug 23, 2013 14:53:07 GMT -6
Don't see the point of bull in the ring. Mabey backer coachs could use it. Oklahoma how ever is one of my favs. If the drill is not game like I don't run it. Spent a good amount of time watching a nfl team practice no sleds no chutes if its not game like they don't do it so I don't ether. My one exception is monkey rolls . I see no really vaule in doing them but my mother god bless her heart loves them and always asks about them so I practice them for the sole reason mom can see them in pre game. Have had hc's give me {censored} about doing them but monkey rolls go in bottom line Haha that's awesome coach
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2013 13:02:58 GMT -6
I love monkey rolls, just because they're fun. They don't really have a purpose beyond practicing falling and getting up and they don't fit into our practices, but I always enjoyed doing them. Aug 23, 2013 15:51:08 GMT -5 coachphillip said: Had a RB coach who swore by monkey rolls for ball protection. We use monkey rolls as a ball security drill. Got it from Vanderbilt's NFLHSPD dvds. Our ball security has increased immensely by using Vandy's ball security drills, monkey roll bacll security being one of them. As for illegal drills...if you even have to ask if it's illegal, it isn't a good drill.
|
|
|
Post by mariner42 on Aug 24, 2013 18:48:55 GMT -6
this is a much better ring drill I do something real similar, it's really a core concept. I don't think it does sh!t for toughness or physicality or any of those cliches, I just think it teaches how to compete with great effort and for that reason alone it's more or less a daily drill. As to the original question, it really should come down to this: all your drills should be designed to have the strongest transfer possible to game scenarios and to keep your players as safe as possible. Follow that and you'll do well for yourself.
|
|
|
Post by wingtol on Aug 25, 2013 7:14:31 GMT -6
We were talking about a drill that none of us could really find a good reason for the other day at practice. It was on that He11week show about HS football camp, think it was on ESPN or one of their channels. Coach had a kid facing him, flipped him the ball, kid turns and two guys are flying at him and just kill em as he turns. Not real sure what use that drill is to anyone involved.
|
|
|
Post by joris85 on Aug 26, 2013 23:35:36 GMT -6
Advice from Mike Smith of the Falcons: Whenever you ask yourself: "Should I be doing this?", you probably shouldn't.
|
|
|
Post by fantom on Aug 26, 2013 23:44:27 GMT -6
Advice from Mike Smith of the Falcons: Whenever you ask yourself: "Should I be doing this?", you probably shouldn't. Unfortunately when people should be asking themselves that question they'r often thinking, "This'll be GREAT".
|
|
|
Post by coach2013 on Aug 27, 2013 2:21:26 GMT -6
You can do all kinds of contact drills within reason, provided you teach proper safe fundamentals such as eyes up , neck bulled and you can explain how it applies to the game of football. One more thing, Just be careful what you call it.
"ring of death" or "dead mans alley" or "death row" might sound great during practice but will be just awful in court.
|
|
|
Post by coachmoore42 on Aug 27, 2013 20:52:11 GMT -6
Advice from Mike Smith of the Falcons: Whenever you ask yourself: "Should I be doing this?", you probably shouldn't. That's applicable to much more than just football drills.
|
|
|
Post by bulldogsdc on Oct 16, 2019 7:19:11 GMT -6
So, no. There is no drill in the NFHS handbook that is deemed illegal. Is this fact?
|
|
|
Post by fantom on Oct 16, 2019 7:36:29 GMT -6
So, no. There is no drill in the NFHS handbook that is deemed illegal. Is this fact? Oh oh. Be careful not to have a "This will be GREAT" moment.
|
|
|
Post by bulldogsdc on Oct 16, 2019 10:28:40 GMT -6
Thinking of going a little Burma Road (no shields) and Escape from Saigon today with the JVs today.
|
|
|
Post by fantom on Oct 16, 2019 10:50:06 GMT -6
Thinking of going a little Burma Road (no shields) and Escape from Saigon today with the JVs today. Keep in mind that even if the Fed doesn't have a rule your state, region, or district may. Aren't you in NY? I have friends who have coached there so I know that if any state has a rule it'd be that one.
|
|
|
Post by IronmanFootball on Oct 16, 2019 12:12:09 GMT -6
Monday I watched a guy line JV kids 20 yards apart and just ram into each other. No one was a ball carrier, there was no purpose. Just ram jam thank you ma'am
|
|