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Post by wildcat on Nov 24, 2007 18:48:13 GMT -6
State championship weekend in Illinois...3 shotgun spread teams so far and all three offenses were completely shut down.
Without having to go into a lot of detail about the specifics of each game, are any spread coaches experiencing defenses "catching up" with you?
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Post by tog on Nov 24, 2007 19:11:39 GMT -6
maybe the other teams were better maybe the spread is what got those teams that far
i do think with the number of schools doing it, people have found better ways to defense it for sure
it is always evolving though just like everything else in football
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Post by spos21ram on Nov 24, 2007 19:34:18 GMT -6
UConn just got demolished by WV's Spread, FSU got destroyed by FLA's spread....I think the Spread will do just fine for a while.
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Post by brophy on Nov 24, 2007 19:40:16 GMT -6
correct me if I'm wrong, and this may not have zip to do with the results there.....
but, doesn't Illinois play their championship games in Champaign outside on the turf? Didn't you guys get a snow storm this holiday weekend as well?
But I'd believe the better team (whatever they run) won in those games.
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Post by wildcat on Nov 24, 2007 20:31:56 GMT -6
correct me if I'm wrong, and this may not have zip to do with the results there..... but, doesn't Illinois play their championship games in Champaign outside on the turf? Didn't you guys get a snow storm this holiday weekend as well? But I'd believe the better team (whatever they run) won in those games. No snow, but it was very cold. Might have had a lot to do with it as well.
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Post by groundchuck on Nov 24, 2007 20:35:26 GMT -6
Wasn't the spread team in class A playing without its top two receivers who were suspended for drinking last weekend? It seemed to me Tuscola had guys open alot but there were quite a few drops. Galena however seemed to have more speed, and played better, so having those guys may not have mattered. THey played good defense, and good defense beats good O in championship games.
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Post by wildcat on Nov 24, 2007 20:42:56 GMT -6
Wasn't the spread team in class A playing without its top two receivers who were suspended for drinking last weekend? It seemed to me Tuscola had guys open alot but there were quite a few drops. Galena however seemed to have more speed, and played better, so having those guys may not have mattered. THey played good defense, and good defense beats good O in championship games. I think that was definitely a factor with Tuscola...like you said, lots of catchable ball were dropped in the games. Not sure if those receivers were the "new" guys or not, but I'm sure that the suspensions made it hard for those kids to concentrate on the job at hand.
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coachh
Junior Member
Posts: 336
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Post by coachh on Nov 24, 2007 20:45:39 GMT -6
I will say Lake Zurich sure did play physical in their game. To stop WWS and their offense was tremendous. GBN spread team is getting beat right now as well.
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Post by wildcat on Nov 24, 2007 21:09:47 GMT -6
How about that GN QB, H? 6-6, 220 pound junior...my guess is that he is on a few radar screens!
Lake Zurich looked very good today. I saw them in the quarters against Rockford Boylan and they really should have lost that game.
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Post by khalfie on Nov 24, 2007 22:37:23 GMT -6
How about that GN QB, H? 6-6, 220 pound junior...my guess is that he is on a few radar screens! Lake Zurich looked very good today. I saw them in the quarters against Rockford Boylan and they really should have lost that game. Its funny you say that... I'm arguing with some guys on Edgy about the new #1 in Illinois... and I've been backing LZ... But it seems they have struggled with a lot of teams.... Well their o has struggled... that defense is lights out... I think I'm going to hug my 33 stack in a similar fashion, with their hands on their DT's But... and reading that inside Guard... he leaves, they follow, he backs, they back, he comes, they slide outside... being that the de end will be pinching also..
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Post by khalfie on Nov 24, 2007 23:01:34 GMT -6
UConn just got demolished by WV's Spread, FSU got destroyed by FLA's spread....I think the Spread will do just fine for a while. College Spread and HS Spread are two entirely different animals. One has the best arm and best hands from several different areas, whereas the other has the best arm and the best hands from the neighborhood. And I believe Wild is speaking to the dwindling advantage when the best teams face each other... 3yds and a cloud vs a strong defense... or my talent vs your talent in space, while I blitz your 5 man protection scheme... Sure the best team is going to win... but... what was my poiint? oh yeah... the best team is going to win
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Post by redbudfan on Nov 24, 2007 23:10:29 GMT -6
Addison Driscoll won with there spread.
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Post by khalfie on Nov 24, 2007 23:13:28 GMT -6
Addison Driscoll won with there spread. Yeah... two entirely different animals. One had the best arm and best hands from several different areas, whereas the other had the best arm and the best hands from their neighborhood.
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Post by airitout616 on Nov 24, 2007 23:15:57 GMT -6
How many Wing-t or power running teams lost in the country during there state championships games ? If they lost would we say that the wing-t is losing its luster ? Bottom line the best team wins no matter what offense or defense they run, and to get to the state title game is a good thing anyway.
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Post by coachjaz on Nov 24, 2007 23:16:27 GMT -6
The Michigan Big Schools (D1) Maccomb Dakota won w/ the shotgun spread, I believe the final was 41-21
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Post by Coach Huey on Nov 24, 2007 23:29:12 GMT -6
again (as has been stated many times before) ... if everyone ran the "best offense known to man-kind" then that offense would only be a 50% winner ... as, in every game, there is 1 winner and 1 loser ...
so, much more is involved than just the "scheme" you use
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Post by coachorr on Nov 25, 2007 0:27:19 GMT -6
It sure is boring to watch. It seems like football is turining into a basketball game with pads. Sorry if that is offensive, it is just a little boring to watch the spread.
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Post by airraider on Nov 25, 2007 0:52:39 GMT -6
It sure is boring to watch. It seems like football is turining into a basketball game with pads. Sorry if that is offensive, it is just a little boring to watch the spread. No, that is a blanket statement.. It might be boring to YOU.. but you cannot say its boring to watch.. thats not a factual statement.. you cannot speak for everyone else like that.. ;D
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Post by coachorr on Nov 25, 2007 0:56:46 GMT -6
On the contrary, I think I only speak for myself. I think most people love to see the ball thrown around, because for the average person (just normal fans of the game) it is easier to see the ball in the air, where it is going and what happened at the end of the play. Don't get me wrong it is not that i don't like a good passing attack, but when that is the main focus of the thing It is not as interesting to me personally to watch.
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Post by brophy on Nov 25, 2007 1:29:38 GMT -6
"boring to watch"
and
"is more common = can be beat"
for this discussion, can be quite similar.
Why? Because it depends on WHAT system you are actually seeing. Much like watching a Wing-T team, are they running series, are they relying on one facet, how multiple are they?
A "spread team" that only does sprint out, or only does 7-step routes, relyings soley on screen game, etc.......pretty much one-dimensional is not only easier to zero-in on (and defeat), but can be boring.
Watching ANY offense that is dynamic enough to keep the defense on its toes, would be "exciting" (and hard to beat).
The "spread" isn't simply a formation and a handful of plays. It means a lot of different things to a lot of different things. The more teams are forced to adapt to it, it is a natural phenomenon for (good) teams to catch up and have a competent defense
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Post by airraider on Nov 25, 2007 1:37:44 GMT -6
On the contrary, I think I only speak for myself. I think most people love to see the ball thrown around, because for the average person (just normal fans of the game) it is easier to see the ball in the air, where it is going and what happened at the end of the play. Don't get me wrong it is not that i don't like a good passing attack, but when that is the main focus of the thing It is not as interesting to me personally to watch. I LOVE the fact that you say this and yet you still think Colt Brennan should win the heisman. I also LOVE Brennan in the offense he runs.. LOVE it..
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Post by davecisar on Nov 25, 2007 7:29:54 GMT -6
Menominee Michigan won its 3rd State Title in the last 8 years, running the SIngle Wing. Same thing theyve been running with Ken Hofer for the last 25 years, some things evolve, some stay the same ;D
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Post by wildcat on Nov 25, 2007 8:18:15 GMT -6
Guys, guys, guys!
The point of this thread was NOT to bash the spread...just wanted to see if other high school spread coaches (I consider myself a high school spread coach) were having more difficulty moving the ball and scoring points than they did maybe 2-3 years ago. It APPEARED, at least this weekend down in Champaign, that the defenses were "catching" up...that is all I am trying to say.
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Post by lochness on Nov 25, 2007 8:57:21 GMT -6
It's just like anything else, "take away what they do best"...
In our state, a spread team and a 2 TE Wing-T team played for the championship. They had also played each other last game of the regular season. The spread team won 30-6. The Wing-T team's coach (who had won the previous 2 titles) said in the paper after that loss that they "couldn't figure out the spread" and that they had been "run all over" because of the running space that the offensive formations create.
Well, when they met in the Championship game, the Wing-T team played a pure 5-2 defense. They played C4 behind the 2x2 sets and rolled C3 to the 3x1 sets. They totally sold out on stopping the run, which is what a lot of "spread" teams still want to do (run).
The result was, they held the QB and RB (both 1000 yard rushers) to a combined 55 yards total rushing. They gave up a few big pass plays, but they never got away from their philosophy of stopping the run first. The only real sustained offense the spread team had was hitting short routes and outlets, and it looked as though the Wing-T team had practiced long and hard on pursuit / swarming this stuff under, and they usually held it to minimal-to-moderate gains. The result was the Wing-T team won 14-2.
Earlier in the playoffs, in a different division, I watched a spread team and a wishbone team go at it. The spread team was vastly superior on offense and defense. The wishbone team simply walked their safeties up to about 7 yards and, again, played run-first defense, and dared the spread team to throw deep. The spread team won 10-0, but the regular season game was much more of a blow out (29-7).
Of course, this philosophy wouldn't work if the spread team had 2 very good receivers and a very good QB, but in that case it doesn't matter if you are running pro I, wing T, or whatever.
The bottom line is, an offense is an offense. Most offenses are designed to put defenders in conflict. Wing T, Option, etc. do this very well. The spread does it by formation rather than by play series or whatever. If you don't defend it properly, they're going to wreck you. It's just like the Double Wing. If you blitz it and send your DE's rushing upfield and try to key motion, they're going to obliterate you. In the spread, if they are primarily a running team, and you run with 5 or 6 in the box because you're too busy trying to take away combo routes, bubble screens, etc. etc., then they are going to kill you.
That's where most offenses have an advantage at the High School level...it's in the defenses not knowing how to properly defend the offense and/or being able to commit to taking away what they do best.
The "spread" (that term is becoming as generic and irritating as "West Coast Offense") is no better or worse than any other scheme. The question is, do the defensive coaches truly understand how to stop it?
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Post by lochness on Nov 25, 2007 9:10:27 GMT -6
To clarify: I don't dislike the "spread" (although I too find it boring, but I'm the type of guy who will just spotlight-watch the FB on an "I" team lead block on people for an entire game). What I dislike are coaches who blindly switch over to an offense when they have no idea WHY they are switching other than it "looks cool" on TV and they heard some guy in a clinic say "it gives teams with less talent an advantage." I think I heard that same guy talk in a Veer Option clinic, a DW clinic, a Wing T clinic...
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Post by lochness on Nov 25, 2007 9:11:26 GMT -6
To clarify: I don't dislike the "spread" (although I too find it boring, but I'm the type of guy who will just spotlight-watch the FB on an "I" team lead block on people for an entire game). What I dislike are coaches who blindly switch over to an offense when they have no idea WHY they are switching other than it "looks cool" on TV and they heard some guy in a clinic say "it gives teams with less talent an advantage." I think I heard that same guy talk in a Veer Option clinic, a DW clinic, a Wing T clinic...
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Post by coachorr on Nov 25, 2007 9:22:24 GMT -6
Air Raid, I am not sure what my personal like or dislike of an offense has to do with choosing a candidate for Heisman. I am not saying that I think it is boring to watch has much to do with the player who I think is the most valueble to their team.
Side note, and I know you are going to really persecute me over this one, but Oregon is one of my favorite teams. I am not sure if it is the uniforms or the way they mix up their offense and they way their players compete, but I enjoy Oregon. My most favorite team to watch is Navy.
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Post by coachorr on Nov 25, 2007 9:28:38 GMT -6
On the otherhand, I do like to watch a shotgun spread team that tries to establish the run first and does so through scheme. Like, Gun Jets. Pretty neat stuff.
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Post by champ93 on Nov 25, 2007 9:34:55 GMT -6
The Michigan Big Schools (D1) Maccomb Dakota won w/ the shotgun spread, I believe the final was 41-21 true, but their opponent, Livonia Stevenson, was spread also.
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Post by airraider on Nov 25, 2007 11:17:32 GMT -6
Air Raid, I am not sure what my personal like or dislike of an offense has to do with choosing a candidate for Heisman. I am not saying that I think it is boring to watch has much to do with the player who I think is the most valueble to their team. Side note, and I know you are going to really persecute me over this one, but Oregon is one of my favorite teams. I am not sure if it is the uniforms or the way they mix up their offense and they way their players compete, but I enjoy Oregon. My most favorite team to watch is Navy. I am 100% just giving you a hard time.. You dont have to explain it to me.. I am just messing with you..
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