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Post by phantom on Sept 14, 2007 21:29:45 GMT -6
I'm interested of the definition of talking. Would I be forbidden from yelling "No!" if a ref throws a flag that I think is wrong. I'm not talking about an argument, I'm talking about an exclamation. After we get a penalty, especially holding, I'll ask an official who did it. I'm polite and am not arguing. I want the guy to stop holding. Am I guilty of Illegal Communication? Will I be suspended? If so, it's going to be a long one because my butt ain't coming back. Whether or not you are allowed or suspended is probably a state or district policy. From my perspective, I fully expect exclamations when I do something you don't agree with. Let's face it, this is your passion, job, and livelyhood we are talking about and those are all in the hands of high-school age kids. I am serious about officiating, treat it like a job, spend a lot of time on it, but it isn't my primary vocation and my stress level is different. What I am saying, boiled down to its essence, is that officials would much rather work with you that be worked by you. When I did work flank, the coach that asked questions was the coach that got more preventive officiating because that line of communication was open. For example,"Coach, you need to let 95 know that he is real close to being in the neutral zone. He needs to get back." With an open line of communication, we can have that dialogue. I don't expect you to never disagree with me. In fact, if I am doing my job, I am going to do some things you aren't going to like. That is part of enforcing the rules. But there are coaches for whom I have worked, where they have said,"I think that was a sh***ty call" and then gone back to work and we have been fine. The coach that will be in trouble is the one that rides the officials like a dimestore pony. There is no communication line open and therefore I can't do any preventive officiating. It becomes very much by the book. Just for some perspective, I work in an industry where my job is dependent on multiple vendors to be successful. They have to make decisions independently of what I want and sometimes that causes me heartburn. I figure out how to work with them to squeeze every drop of productivity out of that customer/vendor relationship. In 100% of the instances, I have had to be nasty at least once; conversely, in 100% of those instances I would fail if I was nasty all the time. I pick my spots, so when the time comes, it has an effect. If I am nasty all the time, there is no relationship and I can't get out of it what I need. I guess what I am trying to say is this. If you really want to get everything out of the crew you have tonight, work with them like your job depends on it. Keep the tone professional and cooperative until such time that the screw something up. Blow up, be unhappy, then go back to working with them on a professional level. The tone of the game will shift and there may reach a point that you get the benefit of the doubt when you wouldn't have otherwise. Tim, my question was more for coaches who say they'll suspend assistants for talking to officials or who have official policies that say that only allow the HC to talk to officials. I don't get on the officials because I know how hard their job is and respect that, understand that we won't change anything for the better, and realize that getting caught up in the "bad call" syndrome will prevent me from doing the best job that I can do. Blaming the refs also gives our kids an out if the other guys do something good. That's not a luxury that we can afford. HCs telling the assistants to never talk to the assistants, under penalty of suspension, is beyond the pale, though IMO.
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Post by davecisar on Sept 15, 2007 5:40:15 GMT -6
Thats a tough one Calande. Nothing you can do will change the play at that point, great discipline. OTOH in NEbraska a couple of years ago in a Class A State Championship game, the refs blew a pretty close call on a spot near the goal line (bam bam play). The losing team and coach screamed at the refs and tossed thier second place medals in a garbage can. I wonder who did the better job of teaching his players respect and discipline?
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Post by wildcat on Sept 15, 2007 18:12:11 GMT -6
Wasn't there something along the lines of this with Bill Parcells a couple years ago? One of his coaches was yelling at a ref and Parcells pushed the guy or punched him or something?
Anyway...my two cents:
I am the O/C and I will NEVER yell at a ref...those guys have the TOUGHEST job in the game...they don't get paid a lot, they often are driving 50+ miles to get to a game, and then, they have to listen to some first-class Type "A" jag-bag on the sidelines (and often in the stands) work them over mercilessly.
Are there bad officials? Sure. But, for every bad official, I have seen a lot more bad coaches. And, like any other profession, the bad ones are usually going to weed themselves out. When we have a crew show up and all of the guys are around 40 years old and have their "20 Year" service and "State Finals" patches on their pinstripes, I'm giving those guys a WIDE berth because they have seen more football than I probably EVER will.
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Post by phantom on Sept 15, 2007 18:25:06 GMT -6
Wasn't there something along the lines of this with Bill Parcells a couple years ago? One of his coaches was yelling at a ref and Parcells pushed the guy or punched him or something? Anyway...my two cents: I am the O/C and I will NEVER yell at a ref...those guys have the TOUGHEST job in the game...they don't get paid a lot, they often are driving 50+ miles to get to a game, and then, they have to listen to some first-class Type "A" jag-bag on the sidelines (and often in the stands) work them over mercilessly. Are there bad officials? Sure. But, for every bad official, I have seen a lot more bad coaches. And, like any other profession, the bad ones are usually going to weed themselves out. When we have a crew show up and all of the guys are around 40 years old and have their "20 Year" service and "State Finals" patches on their pinstripes, I'm giving those guys a WIDE berth because they have seen more football than I probably EVER will. I think that it makes a difference how long you carry on. Frankly, if you see what you think is a bad call against you and don't react, I can't understand that. Then you have to give it up. Telling assistant coaches not to react at all is totally foreign to me, though.
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Post by wildcat on Sept 15, 2007 18:38:57 GMT -6
I think that it makes a difference how long you carry on. Frankly, if you see what you think is a bad call against you and don't react, I can't understand that. Then you have to give it up. Telling assistant coaches not to react at all is totally foreign to me, though. I had a conversation with a guy who has been reffing for about 40 years and he basically confirmed this. He said that if there is a bang-bang call, a questionable call, or a blown call, he (and most officials) understands that a coach will be angry and they will give that guy a little latitude after such a play. However, if the guy just won't let it go, that is when problems occur. As far as talking to refs go, I just think it shows a lack of control and organization on the sideline if everyone is talking to refs...talking to the refs is the job of the head coach, not assistant coaches.
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Post by timtheenchanter on Sept 15, 2007 20:35:55 GMT -6
I think that it makes a difference how long you carry on. Frankly, if you see what you think is a bad call against you and don't react, I can't understand that. Then you have to give it up. Telling assistant coaches not to react at all is totally foreign to me, though. I had a conversation with a guy who has been reffing for about 40 years and he basically confirmed this. He said that if there is a bang-bang call, a questionable call, or a blown call, he (and most officials) understands that a coach will be angry and they will give that guy a little latitude after such a play. However, if the guy just won't let it go, that is when problems occur. As far as talking to refs go, I just think it shows a lack of control and organization on the sideline if everyone is talking to refs...talking to the refs is the job of the head coach, not assistant coaches. The one caveat that I have to this is the OL or the DL coach talking to the Umpire. I had a couple who were a touch zealous this weekend. I got a hold of both coaches to have them take care of it. We were in a nut-cutter and I didn't want to throw a UNR unless I had no other choice. They were choirboys after their coaches got done I spoke with one coach and my wing spoke to the other.
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Post by gldnglv165 on Sept 16, 2007 4:09:24 GMT -6
We had a game this weekend, where the other team was on offense...QB drops back, gets pressure and throws the ball away. Left Guard nearly catches the pass, but ends up dropping it. We are yelling for illegal touching, or inelligible man downfield....no flag. Officials won't talk to us. Finally, during a time out my HC and I talk to the white hat and ask him why it wasn't a penalty. He says we should have asked him for a conference instead of yell at him.
We didn't get off to a good start with this crew either, as they made us kick off from the 35 to start the game. When they went to make the other team kick from the 35 after a score, they argued and the officials finally figured out that we were supposed to be kicking off from the 40. Strange group of officials....
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Post by wildcat on Sept 16, 2007 5:11:06 GMT -6
Anyone here have a guy on the Frosh-Soph or sophomore team who is just ruthless on officials? Used to work with a guy, great coach, knew football, but was absolutely brutal on officials during the frosh-soph game. Always felt that the officials were "against" us before the varsity game even began because of the working-over they took during the first game...
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Post by timtheenchanter on Sept 16, 2007 6:20:39 GMT -6
Anyone here have a guy on the Frosh-Soph or sophomore team who is just ruthless on officials? Used to work with a guy, great coach, knew football, but was absolutely brutal on officials during the frosh-soph game. Always felt that the officials were "against" us before the varsity game even began because of the working-over they took during the first game... These coaches can do lots of damage to a schools reputation. There is one in our general area where the used to occur. Nice head coach, assistants have been imported from the seventh ring of hell. It is the only place I have ever had to flag the bench and it was during a JV game and I almost had to have the coach removed. Bad deal all the way around. The same coach acted that way on Friday night as well. The sad thing was that the kids took the cue and acted that way on the field. It made for a long night.
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Post by timtheenchanter on Sept 16, 2007 6:21:25 GMT -6
We had a game this weekend, where the other team was on offense...QB drops back, gets pressure and throws the ball away. Left Guard nearly catches the pass, but ends up dropping it. We are yelling for illegal touching, or inelligible man downfield....no flag. Officials won't talk to us. Finally, during a time out my HC and I talk to the white hat and ask him why it wasn't a penalty. He says we should have asked him for a conference instead of yell at him. We didn't get off to a good start with this crew either, as they made us kick off from the 35 to start the game. When they went to make the other team kick from the 35 after a score, they argued and the officials finally figured out that we were supposed to be kicking off from the 40. Strange group of officials.... Wow. Not sure where to start with this one.
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