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Post by Coach Bennett on Dec 8, 2012 11:03:42 GMT -6
Was reading AFM's recent issue and they were talking about Leach being unorthodox in some of his approaches to coaching.
Without this being a conversation about him, do you know of what some programs do (perhaps your own) that most coaches would consider against the norm or conventions of most teams and their philsophies?
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Post by superpower on Dec 21, 2012 13:09:33 GMT -6
We are Double Wing offense and 10-1 Defense, which many would consider unorthodox. We also rarely punt. Our first punt this year was in the 3rd round of the playoffs. We finished 12-1, losing in the semi-finals to the state champs.
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Post by Coach Bennett on Dec 21, 2012 13:23:47 GMT -6
That's exactly the kind of stuff I was wondering about.
Why did you punt after having not done it all year?
What was your conversion rate on 4th down? For the conversions you didn't make, how often did a team score on their ensuing possession?
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Post by davishfc on Dec 21, 2012 13:23:56 GMT -6
ack32 would be a good resource on this topic. He mentioned this in a thread I got started in the Running Game section...
The Tackle Over from a Trips or Quads set, really places the Defense in a Bind.....The reason I speak on this, is because I suffocate Othrodox offensive formations on a Regular....I have to work on Unothrodox sets so that My Aggression is not taken away when teams give us these alignments.....
Sounds like there's some concepts he could elaborate on.
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Post by amthd45 on Dec 21, 2012 14:26:30 GMT -6
Good topic!! I hope to learn some things from everyone out there. I am a big fan of Leach and Gagliardi (St. Johns Minnesota), Frosty Westering (Pacific Lutheran Univ), guys who are unorthodox in some fashion or another.
Here are a few I do, they may or may be useful to anyone out there:
1. Bad snaps in shotgun most coaches blow the whistle and restart the play. I let it play out so the kids can adjust cause there will likely be a bad snap that will happen at some point in the season during a game. (Of course i will blow the whistle quickly if a DL/LB has a freeshot on the QB and he is vulnerable to getting hurt)
2. We dont stretch (static stretching) anymore. We do dynamic only warmups that are fast paced and gets the tempo of practice going in the right direction from the start. Having the kids lay around and stretch seems to distract them and I always hated it as a player myself. For some of you who may think I am crazy, I base this on Scientific evidence which shows that if you do static stretching it should be AFTER your practice/workout and during your cool down. Static stretching before your body is completely warmed up, WILL lead to Injury! And in all my years of doing this I have Never had a kid out with a pulled muscle.
3. We dont run sprints. Sled is used for conditioning. Sprints you can coast/cheat on. THe sled shows really quickly who is not pulling their weight.
(These are things used in season. Preseason we will stretch after weightroom workouts, and we do all of our sprint running during the offseason to condition the kids).
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Post by superpower on Dec 21, 2012 14:47:31 GMT -6
That's exactly the kind of stuff I was wondering about. Why did you punt after having not done it all year? What was your conversion rate on 4th down? For the conversions you didn't make, how often did a team score on their ensuing possession? We punted because it was 4th and 28, if I remember correctly. I don't know what our conversion rate was for sure, but I am confident that it was better than 50%. I also couldn't tell you how often the other team scored when we failed to convert, but I would estimate that it was less than 25%. |
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Post by jaylyman1 on Dec 21, 2012 18:43:59 GMT -6
Good topic!! I hope to learn some things from everyone out there. I am a big fan of Leach and Gagliardi (St. Johns Minnesota), Frosty Westering (Pacific Lutheran Univ), guys who are unorthodox in some fashion or another. Here are a few I do, they may or may be useful to anyone out there: 1. Bad snaps in shotgun most coaches blow the whistle and restart the play. I let it play out so the kids can adjust cause there will likely be a bad snap that will happen at some point in the season during a game. (Of course i will blow the whistle quickly if a DL/LB has a freeshot on the QB and he is vulnerable to getting hurt) 2. We dont stretch (static stretching) anymore. We do dynamic only warmups that are fast paced and gets the tempo of practice going in the right direction from the start. Having the kids lay around and stretch seems to distract them and I always hated it as a player myself. For some of you who may think I am crazy, I base this on Scientific evidence which shows that if you do static stretching it should be AFTER your practice/workout and during your cool down. Static stretching before your body is completely warmed up, WILL lead to Injury! And in all my years of doing this I have Never had a kid out with a pulled muscle. 3. We dont run sprints. Sled is used for conditioning. Sprints you can coast/cheat on. THe sled shows really quickly who is not pulling their weight. (These are things used in season. Preseason we will stretch after weightroom workouts, and we do all of our sprint running during the offseason to condition the kids). Love the sled idea! That absolutely shows who's working.... Will use that method for sure... Also above someone mentioned a 10-1 defense, can you give more detail there! Thx coach! |
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Post by coachbowlin on Dec 21, 2012 22:53:06 GMT -6
I'd like some information about a 10-1 defense. It would be interesting just to see that especially if it worked against various offenses.
Amthd45 I love your different strategies. I will definitely let the play develop even if there is a bad snap, it will keep the players on their toes and will let us see how they will react. Because unfortunately on gameday our whistles aren't the ones being blown.
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Post by Chris Clement on Dec 21, 2012 23:58:57 GMT -6
A 10-1 looks like this:
4 guys in the A and B gaps, penetration and stuffing their gap
2 guys playing wide contain-nothing outside
5 guys manned up on the eligibles
C0 all the time (there are changeups, but that's the base), it has the offense matched up on numbers everywhere they try to go. It's a way of life.
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msalazar51
Junior Member
"Believing that 95% commitment is okay results in 100% failure."
Posts: 305
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Post by msalazar51 on Dec 22, 2012 5:19:02 GMT -6
A 10-1 looks like this: 4 guys in the A and B gaps, penetration and stuffing their gap 2 guys playing wide contain-nothing outside 5 guys manned up on the eligibles C0 all the time (there are changeups, but that's the base), it has the offense matched up on numbers everywhere they try to go. It's a way of life. Like being a wing-t guy, you have got to be married to it? |
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Post by dubber on Dec 22, 2012 10:00:11 GMT -6
It's important to remember that these coaches are not being unorthodox simply to be different, they believe these strategies give their team a better chance to win.
Or, they don't do commonly accepted practices, because they fail to see the value.
If you can see that football has no ideal methods (just ideal objectives), then you can pragmatically approach the question of which methods YOUR TEAM needs to be successful.
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Post by blb on Dec 22, 2012 10:15:31 GMT -6
One of the things that is great about HS Football is the variety of schemes including "unorthodox" approaches like superpower.
I wouldn't want to play his team though!
College and NFL games look too much alike, not enough diversity.
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Post by Coach Bennett on Dec 22, 2012 10:38:57 GMT -6
Or, they don't do commonly accepted practices, because they fail to see the value. Anyone out there have examples of these? |
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Post by larrymoe on Dec 22, 2012 10:42:18 GMT -6
Love the sled idea! That absolutely shows who's working.... Will use that method for sure... Also above someone mentioned a 10-1 defense, can you give more detail there! Thx coach! We use the sled to condition our OL during Indy time during offensive day. We go through it about 4 times- Right step, left step, and two just straight on ramming time sessions. Usually let them drive it up to 30 secs. Great conditioning time and it works. Through 11 games this year we ran the ball for 3200 yards. |
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Post by davishfc on Dec 22, 2012 11:53:43 GMT -6
It's important to remember that these coaches are not being unorthodox simply to be different, they believe these strategies give their team a better chance to win. Or, they don't do commonly accepted practices, because they fail to see the value. If you can see that football has no ideal methods (just ideal objectives), then you can pragmatically approach the question of which methods YOUR TEAM needs to be successful. Well said dubber. |
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Post by jackedup on Dec 22, 2012 12:37:02 GMT -6
Offensively, we're Empty 5 wide. 4x1 and 3x2. There are some sets where we have a RB and go 3x1 but that is rare. And our short yardage offense is the MD I (triple stack).
Defensively, we're multiple formation. A little more tradition in mostly playing formation with little blitz.
Special Teams wise, we're onsides kick and no punt all the time.
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Post by shotgunfivewide5 on Dec 22, 2012 21:08:41 GMT -6
punted around 8 times total for the whole year....only failed to convert on tried fourth down calls once the entire season...we felt like we were in fourth down territory almost everywhere on the field, have gone for it several times this year inside our own 20 yard line....we felt like any where on the field we were 3 yards or less on fourth down we were going for it.....we run and offense called the trigger offense that will be sold through championship coaching systems beginning in january 13, we very rarely practiced extra point because we had no one that could do beyond a consistency of 25% rate, we converted our two point trys at a rate of just under 70%..remember anything 3 yards or under we were going for it......when we punted it was out of a five wide set......we never tackle to the ground....qb's are huge part of the run game...sometimes we will use 3 per game....the reverse is one of our best plays and we will always run 5 or 6 every game...nothing is out of bounds and we will use sometimes as many as 40 formations per game...is it to much, no....is it hard to coach, no.....is it easy to learn, you bet...our only thought process as a coach is we will never blame our kiids for our failing as a coach...we will find a way to make our kids competitive
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Post by scottbailey on Dec 22, 2012 21:38:27 GMT -6
Our base offense has been shotgun double wing since 2008. We got it from Dale Weiner at Catholic HS in Baton Rouge, LA. Up through the 2010 season we ran it with a QB and a traditional fullback type player behind center. In 2011 and again in 2012 we ran it with two QB type players behind center sharing the snaps from center depending on the play call. We went to this two QB scheme because we are a small school and after our fullback graduated the two quarterback type players were the best personnel we had available. I would say this makes our offense a little unorthodox and we have been successful with it, rushing the ball for over 6000 yards each of the last two years and winning two state championships...of course I could make a pretty good argument that our success on offense is due to us being blessed with an outstanding offensive line the past couple seasons and speed at the skill positions and the scheme is not as important as the players running it.
I really like the idea of letting the play continue in practice when we have a bad shotgun snap....I am sitting here after reading that post in amazement that I never saw the importance of practicing that type of situation.
Scott Bailey
Lamar HS
Lamar, Missouri
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 22, 2012 21:51:45 GMT -6
punted around 8 times total for the whole year....only failed to convert on tried fourth down calls once the entire season.. Wait, so you you only had 9 possessions where you didn't either score or turn the ball over? |
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Post by davishfc on Dec 22, 2012 22:20:47 GMT -6
punted around 8 times total for the whole year....only failed to convert on tried fourth down calls once the entire season.. Wait, so you you only had 9 possessions where you didn't either score or turn the ball over? Hmmm  Talk about a potent offense. |
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Post by Chris Clement on Dec 22, 2012 22:26:58 GMT -6
Our base offense has been shotgun double wing since 2008. We got it from Dale Weiner at Catholic HS in Baton Rouge, LA. Up through the 2010 season we ran it with a QB and a traditional fullback type player behind center. In 2011 and again in 2012 we ran it with two QB type players behind center sharing the snaps from center depending on the play call. We went to this two QB scheme because we are a small school and after our fullback graduated the two quarterback type players were the best personnel we had available. I would say this makes our offense a little unorthodox and we have been successful with it, rushing the ball for over 6000 yards each of the last two years and winning two state championships...of course I could make a pretty good argument that our success on offense is due to us being blessed with an outstanding offensive line the past couple seasons and speed at the skill positions and the scheme is not as important as the players running it. I really like the idea of letting the play continue in practice when we have a bad shotgun snap....I am sitting here after reading that post in amazement that I never saw the importance of practicing that type of situation. Scott Bailey Lamar HS Lamar, Missouri Do the QB's do the kicking out and run the G plays? I've been doodling that for a while and I'm interested to see if it exists. |
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Post by airraider on Dec 22, 2012 23:14:01 GMT -6
Wait, so you you only had 9 possessions where you didn't either score or turn the ball over? Hmmm Talk about a potent offense. Or lots of turnovers. |
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Post by airraider on Dec 22, 2012 23:15:14 GMT -6
A 10-1 looks like this: 4 guys in the A and B gaps, penetration and stuffing their gap 2 guys playing wide contain-nothing outside 5 guys manned up on the eligibles C0 all the time (there are changeups, but that's the base), it has the offense matched up on numbers everywhere they try to go. It's a way of life. Arent there more working parts to it than that? That basically sounds like a normal goalline defense... I know I read something about the A/B gap players slanting out... also... do you press the TE's, or play off? |
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Post by larrymoe on Dec 23, 2012 0:18:44 GMT -6
We punted 11 times this year in 11 games. 6 of those came while we were up by running clock. I don't know how many times we went for it on 4th and didn't get it. It would be between 3 or 4 I would think.
I hate punting. It's a waste.
And yes, we scored a lot. Averaged 40 a game.
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Post by coachbuck on Dec 23, 2012 2:01:39 GMT -6
punted around 8 times total for the whole year....only failed to convert on tried fourth down calls once the entire season...we felt like we were in fourth down territory almost everywhere on the field, have gone for it several times this year inside our own 20 yard line....we felt like any where on the field we were 3 yards or less on fourth down we were going for it.....we run and offense called the trigger offense that will be sold through championship coaching systems beginning in january 13, we very rarely practiced extra point because we had no one that could do beyond a consistency of 25% rate, we converted our two point trys at a rate of just under 70%..remember anything 3 yards or under we were going for it......when we punted it was out of a five wide set......we never tackle to the ground....qb's are huge part of the run game...sometimes we will use 3 per game....the reverse is one of our best plays and we will always run 5 or 6 every game...nothing is out of bounds and we will use sometimes as many as 40 formations per game...is it to much, no....is it hard to coach, no.....is it easy to learn, you bet...our only thought process as a coach is we will never blame our kiids for our failing as a coach...we will find a way to make our kids competitive Love this philosphy, I like the coaches not blaming the kids and doing whatever it takes to be competitive! |
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Post by s73 on Dec 23, 2012 8:32:56 GMT -6
I would say we are unorthodox in that we no longer do 2-a-days and we don't condition. That's a bit of a misnomer I will explain.
First, no 2 a days b/c I have always found after lunch and an hour of air conditioning the 2nd practice always sucked. We would have a great 1st practice and a terrible 2nd practice and always ended on a down note. My 1st 2 years as HC we did 2 a days and went 0-2 for season opener. The last 8 years with no 2 a days we are 6-2 in season openers. If I feel I'm not getting everything done I trim the playbook rather than extend practice.
As far as no conditioning we feel our whole practice should be conditioning. We want all drills at game speed. We want team to be high paced to the whistle. Everyone jogs everywhere, 2 whistles on defense first to end play, 2nd everyone sprints and touches ball carrier, etc. The catch is we tell the kids if we are unsatisfied with their effort, tempo, intensity then we condition at the end and extend practice. We probably conditioned 4/5 x last season. They have to jog to water break and back as well. Water breaks are 1-2 minutes. We try to have almost no down time ever.
Our average practices during the season are about 230-240 long. Just what we do. It has worked for us and our kids are usually pretty fresh.
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Post by fballcoachg on Dec 23, 2012 9:16:56 GMT -6
1. Bad snaps in shotgun most coaches blow the whistle and restart the play. I let it play out so the kids can adjust cause there will likely be a bad snap that will happen at some point in the season during a game. (Of course i will blow the whistle quickly if a DL/LB has a freeshot on the QB and he is vulnerable to getting hurt) Can't believe I never did this, consider it stolen. |
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Post by Chris Clement on Dec 23, 2012 10:36:28 GMT -6
A 10-1 looks like this: 4 guys in the A and B gaps, penetration and stuffing their gap 2 guys playing wide contain-nothing outside 5 guys manned up on the eligibles C0 all the time (there are changeups, but that's the base), it has the offense matched up on numbers everywhere they try to go. It's a way of life. Arent there more working parts to it than that? That basically sounds like a normal goalline defense... I know I read something about the A/B gap players slanting out... also... do you press the TE's, or play off? There's a bit more to it than that, but the main point is that you do that every play. There's DL technique where they step outside and then slant back in, but that's just the technique to controlling the gap. You have to press the TE's because you're also responsible for that gap. There's a bunch of stuff you could do to it, but the main point is always have numbers everywhere and keep it really simple. |
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Post by blb on Dec 23, 2012 10:43:12 GMT -6
We run a two-back, mostly Under Center Offense primarily from a "Pro" formation and a seven-man front Defense.
And we huddle on Offense!
How wild and whacky is THAT?!
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Post by airraider on Dec 23, 2012 12:30:17 GMT -6
We are very un-orthodox in that we recruit like crazy!!! : )
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Talk about a potent offense.
