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Post by fantom on Oct 4, 2012 21:39:20 GMT -6
I have been a head baseball coach and head football coach and if I had a player miss a game in either sport for a combine or showcase I would have a big problem with it. They would probably be done. I have coached a QB that went on to play in the majors and we had no problems. I was also his baseball coach. Also, coached a kid that placed in the national sci. fair and missed a couple baseball games, since it was school related it was not an issue. Since all of our QB's play baseball what would you do if all of them went to a showcase? How many are legitimate prospects?
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Post by tango on Oct 4, 2012 21:47:23 GMT -6
All can play college ball. One maybe better.
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mc140
Sophomore Member
Posts: 207
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Post by mc140 on Oct 4, 2012 23:19:00 GMT -6
For some of these kids a showcase is a job interview. These "job interviews" happen practically every weekend in the Chicagoland area. I find it hard to believe this was the only showcase he could attend.
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Post by jlenwood on Oct 5, 2012 5:16:31 GMT -6
As I am prone to do, I overlooked a few details of this story. After re-reading the news story, and then reading tothehouses' post, I have to agree that missing a game for a "showcase" is a bonehead move. I can't really fault the coach for booting the kid, however it seems if this was known about before the season, something could have been worked out.
Had this been a campus visit or a real recruiting event aimed at the player, then I still don't think it would warrant being kicked from the team. But a showcase, yep that might get you booted.
Another thing to think about here is that coaches need to do a better job of informing kids and parents about the recruiting process, be it for football or any other sport. They need to know the difference in being recruited as a player, and being recruited to make money off of players ie:showcases.
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Post by fantom on Oct 5, 2012 7:37:26 GMT -6
That's why I keep wondering when the coach found out that the kid was going to the showcase. If the player had informed the coach before the season, as he should have, this should have been hashed out long ago.
Last year I posted a question about a similar situation. I read an article about a kid, the best player on a good team, who was going to miss a league football game to attend a baseball showcase. The article appeared two weeks before the game, so there was definitely advanced notice given. A few more facts:
- The player was primarily a baseball player, already committed to an ACC school. - His purpose for attending the showcase was to gain exposure to MLB scouts and possibly enhance his draft status. - The coach had been informed before 2-a-days started. - The coach also knew that the player was baseball-first and his playing football was contingent on being able to attend this event. It was NOT an ultimatum, just a simple statement off fact. - So, the coach's choice was: Have a 230 lb. TB for 9 games + playoffs or not have him at all.
What do you guys say?
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Post by coachcb on Oct 5, 2012 7:57:20 GMT -6
Why do I get the strong feeling that coach isn't a teacher.... Why would you make that statement? Are you saying being a teacher exempts you from making dumba$$ decisions? Okay, an EXPERIENCED TEACHER. A pragmatic, seasoned teacher deals with these kinds of situations on a daily basis and learns to pick their battles. If not, they don't last very long because they're always making their lives harder.
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Post by joelee on Oct 5, 2012 8:18:09 GMT -6
I have been coaching for 20 and teaching for 10. I have total support for the coach and total disdain for the principal and the parents of the quitters. Notice I didn't say the kids.
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Post by tothehouse on Oct 5, 2012 10:13:54 GMT -6
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Post by coachdennis on Oct 5, 2012 12:51:57 GMT -6
There is that old axiom that football is usually more important to us than it is the players. (Most of them, anyway - we all have a few really keen kids who, not surprisingly, end up being coaches later on.) This sounds like one of those situations. If I was the coach, and this happened to me, I don't think I would be much happier about it than this fellow was. You have to understand, though, that kids have competing interests these days, and they just don't bleed your colors to quite the extent that you wished they would. As long as this was a "good kid" who worked hard and was a good teammate for all his other time with the club, I would bite down hard and live with it. I wouldn't like it, but I would live with it.
Again, though, I have lived for years with players who have competing sports (hockey, baseball. etc.) and all the sports calendars now bleed into each other, so I can't really enforce a "my sport, 100%" rule unless I wanted a team that would go 0-8 routinely.
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 5, 2012 16:10:33 GMT -6
In the end - this sounds like a place with completely skewed reality. Why he missed is what it is and what happened is what it is. But here is what I find odd: A 2 way varsity starter is going to miss a game and EVERYONE except 3 coaches is OK with it. And not only are the players who quit in support of it, they also quit because that one kid was kicked off. So... 1. How important is football to those kids in the first place? 2. Obviously that's not a football community/town. 3. HE chose to go to the showcase rather than to play football on friday night, and he's a 2 way starter - so basically the kid is saying "what I want is more important than all of my teammates, community and team." - and all of those people are supporting that mentality. I agree with this assessment at first glance. The cynic in me says the #1 cause is probably misinformation regarding the showcase (much like the misinformation regarding "full baseball scholarships" and the misinformation that leads a 6'4 high school post player to "concentrate on basketball") I think things like this happen often, and yearly, and as such the COACHES generally have a better handle on the reality of the situation than the kids/parents. To the kid/parents it is "oh wow..i was invited to a showcase..i am special, this is a big deal, what a great opportunity"...to those who see this every year, it is a little different. I am not very familiar with baseball showcases, but logic would dictate that for them to exist, they need to do a fair amount of "chest puffing" to stay in existence. All of that said, the illogical nature of the actions and reactions just kind of makes me smirk a bit. Essentially what I am reading from many of the coaches here is that the player choosing an action that leads to him missing a game (and therefore not playing) is so detrimental to the team that the coach's response should be to choose an action that leads to the player missing (and therefore not playing in ) MORE if not ALL of the rest of the games? I understand the concept of developing a program, and having expectations, but one has to admit, that defies a bit of logic.
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Post by tothehouse on Oct 6, 2012 8:45:50 GMT -6
5085 - What else do you let go? Some kid says they want to miss a Monday practice because they have a lot of homework to do. Then another kid, the next week, has an event "they have to be at". Then the next week a different kid has this and that.
Is the program just a revolving door of players doing whatever they want? Are they accountable to their other teammates who are making everything and doing everything and not missing anything?
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 6, 2012 16:01:14 GMT -6
5085 - What else do you let go? Some kid says they want to miss a Monday practice because they have a lot of homework to do. Then another kid, the next week, has an event "they have to be at". Then the next week a different kid has this and that. Is the program just a revolving door of players doing whatever they want? Are they accountable to their other teammates who are making everything and doing everything and not missing anything? Oh no no..you don't get to miss PRACTICE. Practice is the work. You must practice to play. You don't practice, you don't get to play. Don't care if it is excused or unexcused..you will miss playing time. But you can't argue the illogical sentiments presented here. "You 'hurt the team' by missing a game, so now I as the coach..will cause you to miss more..if not all of the remaining games" Not too different than the often used comedic line said when someone does something stupid and puts them in a precarious predicament. "If you survive I am going to kill you" type of things. It comes off like an ego thing, with the coach's actions saying "I'll show you...you picked 'them' over me...." Again, I think part of this dilemma is because of the misconception of what the baseball "showcase" really is. It isn't all that big a deal, BUT for them to exist, they have to work very hard to actually seem like a "big deal" and an amazing "once in a lifetime" type of opportunity. This leads to what ultimately is the most relevant point. As DCohio points out, football obviously just isn't that important.
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Post by 19delta on Oct 6, 2012 23:02:20 GMT -6
5085 - What else do you let go? Some kid says they want to miss a Monday practice because they have a lot of homework to do. Then another kid, the next week, has an event "they have to be at". Then the next week a different kid has this and that. Is the program just a revolving door of players doing whatever they want? Are they accountable to their other teammates who are making everything and doing everything and not missing anything? But why go from 0 to insane in 5 seconds flat? Why did the coach's punishment have to be quite so severe? Is what this kid did so bad that it warranted being kicked off the team? IMO, the answer is no. A one game suspension? Sure...having to make up any missed practices or conditioning? Sure. But to kick the kid completely off the team was a huge overreaction.
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Post by tothehouse on Oct 6, 2012 23:26:46 GMT -6
The kid failed to notify the coach that he had paid for this "showcase" and was prepared to turn his gear in. Not my words...his. Still doesn't matter to me.
I'm not a football HC, but you don't get to miss a league game...period (unless family issues arise, etc.). Agree to disagree with people on this. It's just my opinion. The issue wasn't the kid as much as the 11 kids who turned in their gear in support of their buddy. It was when THEY wanted reinstatement and the coach said, "no" is when {censored} hit the fan.
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Post by tango on Oct 7, 2012 10:54:42 GMT -6
The biggest baseball showcase in area last week. Our stud pitcher waits 3 hrs. and then gets 5 pitches, 3 fastballs, one curve, and one off speed pitch. He is a Juco kid before and after the combine and unless some guy comes out of left field and hits 92 plus the showcase is a money maker. If they throw 92 everyone already knows about them. I live in a rural area that has produced a # of top 5 round picks over the years and we will see 15 to 20 scouts every game if they can play.
The coaching profession is changing and not for the better. He missed a game people. Even Allen would have a problem with it. I put a lot of this on the parents for making it a big deal and then the large brains in the front office.
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 7, 2012 11:55:52 GMT -6
The biggest baseball showcase in area last week. Our stud pitcher waits 3 hrs. and then gets 5 pitches, 3 fastballs, one curve, and one off speed pitch. He is a Juco kid before and after the combine and unless some guy comes out of left field and hits 92 plus the showcase is a money maker. If they throw 92 everyone already knows about them. I live in a rural area that has produced a # of top 5 round picks over the years and we will see 15 to 20 scouts every game if they can play. The lack of awareness to the realities of these "showcases", and recruiting in general for all sports is a problem. But people see what they believe and not the other way around. I am still trying to wrap my head around how the appropriate reaction for a player choosing another activity over a GAME (not practice) should be the COACH then choosing a penalty that causes the kid to miss MORE GAMES. Isn't that just the coach making a choice that doubles the "wrong" he is claiming the player did to the team?
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Post by tothehouse on Oct 7, 2012 12:13:47 GMT -6
What if a member of a marketing team for a large company decides that he can't make a big presentation one weekend because he has to work on another personal side project? What does the CEO. or whoever his boss is, say?
I'm sure you can fill in a lot of different scenarios.
You sign up to do something...finish the job. Be in it the WHOLE TIME...not part of the time. "Doubles the wrong?" I see it as..."we can't count on the kid to be here...so let's find someone else".
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Post by 19delta on Oct 7, 2012 14:06:09 GMT -6
What if a member of a marketing team for a large company decides that he can't make a big presentation one weekend because he has to work on another personal side project? What does the CEO. or whoever his boss is, say? The CEO really has nothing to say because he is a dumba$$ and a bad evaluator of personnal for assigning such an important presentation to someone in his company who obviously is not 100% on board. And shame on him for not developing the other people in the marketing department so any one of them can make the presentation. I have a hard time believing that this head coach didn't know this was a possibility with this kid. What if the kid misses a game due to a family illness/emergency? Aunt's wedding? Second cousin First Communion? Uncle Pete is coming from a tour in Afghanistan and they are having a big coming-home party for him on Friday night? Why do you get to decide what is and what is not a legitimate absence? Whatever the reason for the absence, the result is the same...the kid is not going to be there and you will have to adjust your plans accordingly. There is no reason to compound the issue and make it worse. Honestly, in 10 years of coaching, I can count on 1 hand the number of times this comes up...it just hasn't been an issue. The handful of times it has come up, it was handled on a case-by-case basis. That, IMO, was always the best way to handle it. Now, the other kids who quit in protest...what to do about them? Well...again....because the head coach made such a short-sighted and irrational decision in kicking the baseball player off the team, I don't blame the administrators in overruling him. This was a tempest of the coach's creation, not the kids.
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Post by fantom on Oct 7, 2012 16:14:45 GMT -6
What if a member of a marketing team for a large company decides that he can't make a big presentation one weekend because he has to work on another personal side project? What does the CEO. or whoever his boss is, say? The CEO really has nothing to say because he is a dumba$$ and a bad evaluator of personnal for assigning such an important presentation to someone in his company who obviously is not 100% on board. And shame on him for not developing the other people in the marketing department so any one of them can make the presentation. I have a hard time believing that this head coach didn't know this was a possibility with this kid. What if the kid misses a game due to a family illness/emergency? Aunt's wedding? Second cousin First Communion? Uncle Pete is coming from a tour in Afghanistan and they are having a big coming-home party for him on Friday night? Why do you get to decide what is and what is not a legitimate absence? Whatever the reason for the absence, the result is the same...the kid is not going to be there and you will have to adjust your plans accordingly. There is no reason to compound the issue and make it worse. Honestly, in 10 years of coaching, I can count on 1 hand the number of times this comes up...it just hasn't been an issue. The handful of times it has come up, it was handled on a case-by-case basis. That, IMO, was always the best way to handle it. Now, the other kids who quit in protest...what to do about them? Well...again....because the head coach made such a short-sighted and irrational decision in kicking the baseball player off the team, I don't blame the administrators in overruling him. This was a tempest of the coach's creation, not the kids. To me you're just asking for trouble when you throw a kid off of the team for something that he has his parents' permission for. I might sit the player for a game but mostly for not giving advance notice. I agree with you that this won't set a precedent. In over 30 years I've had kids a game for some elective reason three times: 1. This year our starting LT missed a scrimmage for a church mission. That gave me a chance to look at another LT. That look was enough to convince me that the first kid was ourLT. 2. In 2001 our starting TE/DE's mothers booked a family reunion for Labor Day weekend, when we had a game. The kid didn't want to go (a 17 year old on a cruise? Please.) but Mom was adamant. We knew about it months ahead of time, planned ahead, and ended up with good depth at the position. 3. In 2010 a backup lineman's family booked a ski trip for the week after the season. Problem was we were in the playoffs. This type of thing doesn't happen often. Bucking parents on stuff like this has disaster written all over it.
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 7, 2012 17:44:50 GMT -6
You sign up to do something...finish the job. Be in it the WHOLE TIME...not part of the time. "Doubles the wrong?" I see it as..."we can't count on the kid to be here...so let's find someone else". Don't get me wrong, I would have that conversation with the kid and parents before the event. "Johnny...I want you to see this through the eyes of our program. From the perspective of the team, we only have 10 games together this season. You are choosing to go somewhere else doing one of those 10 special games...and someone else who has been to all the practices, all the offseason workouts (etc etc) WILL be there. I hope you understand that while we wish you the best of luck at the showcase, we need to make decisions that are best for all 40 kids that are here, and so now Billy is our first string ________.
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Post by 44dlcoach on Oct 7, 2012 20:31:36 GMT -6
We had something somewhat similar come up this year. Kid that was a starter, probably the best DL in the area, but happens to be one of the best wrestlers in the nation too. He was in a situation where he was going to be invited to official visits that would cause him to miss a few games and "didn't want to put the team in that position" so he was going to quit.
We told him that we'd rather have him for 7 games than 0, and that we were sure that the team would understand the situation he was in. There was no plan to suspend him for the following game if he missed a game or anything like that, but we were being given plenty of advance notice to plan for it. Turned out he was more worried about getting hurt and missing part of wrestling season, so he ended up quitting anyway.
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Post by hsrose on Oct 8, 2012 9:22:59 GMT -6
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Post by tothehouse on Oct 8, 2012 9:32:12 GMT -6
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Post by blb on Oct 8, 2012 9:58:12 GMT -6
Is the lesson here..."let's complain a whole lot to get our way"? Most human beings out-grow that or learn it no longer works after about age 4 - unless enabled by adults or those in authority (often called "administrators").
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Post by John Knight on Oct 9, 2012 9:08:44 GMT -6
www.footballscoop.com/news/7640-lengendary-hs-head-coach-returns-to-help-teach-players-a-lessonWhat really stood out to us was that, after officially accepting the head coaching position and being introduced to his new team, Miller told the players who had originally left the team that they were wrong to leave their coach and that they would be punished. The players would have to sit out a game and do some community service before dressing again. Also, each player would have to personally call Coach Mahaffey and apologize before moving forward.
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Post by bleefb on Oct 9, 2012 13:41:51 GMT -6
In actuality, the players had to miss THE FIRST SERIES of the game and that was it. What the coach said in the interview and reality had little in common.
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Post by tothehouse on Oct 9, 2012 14:28:39 GMT -6
That article on Scoop says, "we don't have enough facts" and they were right. The last line about teaching respect, etc. is a joke as well.
The winningest coach in our territory is also getting a lot of coaches pissed off about taking that job.
Scoop doesn't mention either that Coach Miller's grandson is on the team. He wasn't "lured" back.
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Post by mitch on Oct 10, 2012 8:12:24 GMT -6
Sounds pretty fishy TTH.
Grandson of the local legend is on the team, principal sees an opportunity to get rid of current head coach to get legend hired.
Sound about right?
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Post by tothehouse on Oct 10, 2012 9:10:58 GMT -6
I don't know Mitch. This story has more twists than my large intestine.
Coach Miller is renowned, but was also "let go" of his duties at his last school. Don't know the details there. He "retired".
To come in a rescue the situation is embarrassing to me (and a bunch of heavy hitting Sacramento area coaches are completely on board with my thinking). Who would want to go in there and take that job? All the assistant coaches who didn't get fired left. They all realize the inmates are running the asylum.
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