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Post by mhcoach on Feb 20, 2012 16:26:09 GMT -6
I am shocked & upset by the various opinions on this subject. Even worse, I have to agree with Bob & defend him. I know DC & Doug get the point on this issue, not only from their excellent posts but also from many private conversations we have had on this issue. DC & I sat in my kitchen & discussed our thoughts on it.
First, & most important is that every good HS coach wants players who can block & tackle, he cares nothing about what scheme they run. I have watched too many Youth coaches worry about scheme, & let the fundamentals be lost. It's my job as a coach to fit a player into my system.
FlingT, I understand the pride you take coaching in the South. I, too coach in the South(currently Florida, North Carolina previously). However; I find it offensive that you denigrate coaching elsewhere. I coached in NYC, for 20 years. I have met some of the finest coaches & men I have ever known there. 15 years ago when I moved to Florida, I thought well this is the South, surely I'll see a higher level of coaching. Well, I did see much bigger crowds at the games(from a few hundred in NYC to 10k in Florida); & I did see blazing speed; but the coaching was quite equal. There is no reason to take an attitude that the coaching is poorer there, that's just not the case.
Bob, here's an interesting little tidbit. When I first arrived in Florida this season, I installed Zone with the JH team. The varsity HC didn't think we were ready for it at the varsity level. After watching us run Zone so well at the JH's first game, he came to me & said install it at the varsity. Needless to say, Zone & Stretch were our 2 best plays, & our TB finished as the 64th best back in the country as a JR.
DC really hit the nail on the head with his post, the only issue as to why successful programs want continuity from top to bottom is so the varsity HC can have control over how football is taught from top to bottom. It really isn't just about the scheme, it's about teaching solid football. If you speak to coaches who run that type of program it's the first thing they talk about.
Why is it that so many believe it's the scheme that makes teams win? Reality is it's blocking & tackling. Does anyone really think DC wins only because of his SW? He wins because he can coach. He has put together a system that he knows inside out, he knows how to coach it, & he knows how to get players to believe. I guarantee he could coach anywhere (North, South, East or West), any age, & be successful. Does that mean his system isn't really all that good? No, it's excellent, but you still need to coach.
Joe
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Post by coachirvin on Feb 20, 2012 16:35:17 GMT -6
I am shocked & upset by the various opinions on this subject. Even worse, I have to agree with Bob & defend him. I know DC & Doug get the point on this issue, not only from their excellent posts but also from many private conversations we have had on this issue. DC & I sat in my kitchen & discussed our thoughts on it. First, & most important is that every good HS coach wants players who can block & tackle, he cares nothing about what scheme they run. I have watched too many Youth coaches worry about scheme, & let the fundamentals be lost. It's my job as a coach to fit a player into my system. FlingT, I understand the pride you take coaching in the South. I, too coach in the South(currently Florida, North Carolina previously). However; I find it offensive that you denigrate coaching elsewhere. I coached in NYC, for 20 years. I have met some of the finest coaches & men I have ever known there. 15 years ago when I moved to Florida, I thought well this is the South, surely I'll see a higher level of coaching. Well, I did see much bigger crowds at the games(from a few hundred in NYC to 10k in Florida); & I did see blazing speed; but the coaching was quite equal. There is no reason to take an attitude that the coaching is poorer there, that's just not the case. Bob, here's an interesting little tidbit. When I first arrived in Florida this season, I installed Zone with the JH team. The varsity HC didn't think we were ready for it at the varsity level. After watching us run Zone so well at the JH's first game, he came to me & said install it at the varsity. Needless to say, Zone & Stretch were our 2 best plays, & our TB finished as the 64th best back in the country as a JR. DC really hit the nail on the head with his post, the only issue as to why successful programs want continuity from top to bottom is so the varsity HC can have control over how football is taught from top to bottom. It really isn't just about the scheme, it's about teaching solid football. If you speak to coaches who run that type of program it's the first thing they talk about. Why is it that so many believe it's the scheme that makes teams win? Reality is it's blocking & tackling. Does anyone really think DC wins only because of his SW? He wins because he can coach. He has put together a system that he knows inside out, he knows how to coach it, & he knows how to get players to believe. I guarantee he could coach anywhere (North, South, East or West), any age, & be successful. Does that mean his system isn't really all that good? No, it's excellent, but you still need to coach. Joe Coach I'm here in NC and in a round about way that was my point exactly
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Post by mhcoach on Feb 20, 2012 18:19:25 GMT -6
Coach Irvin
Where in NC are you? Prior to last season I spent 4 years in Charlotte. I loved coaching there, & I was really wowed by the talent & dedication of the players. I was also fortunate to have some really good coaches there.
It's a funny thing I have met really good coaches all over, as well as some really bad ones. Here in Florida the biggest difference I have seen is 2 things. First is speed, & we all know speed kills. The second is spring footall. When a player finishes 4 years of HS football, he will have played 5 full seasons. This really makes a difference, & explains why Florida players are so highly recruited.
Joe
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Post by coachirvin on Feb 20, 2012 19:56:22 GMT -6
Coach Irvin Where in NC are you? Prior to last season I spent 4 years in Charlotte. I loved coaching there, & I was really wowed by the talent & dedication of the players. I was also fortunate to have some really good coaches there. It's a funny thing I have met really good coaches all over, as well as some really bad ones. Here in Florida the biggest difference I have seen is 2 things. First is speed, & we all know speed kills. The second is spring footall. When a player finishes 4 years of HS football, he will have played 5 full seasons. This really makes a difference, & explains why Florida players are so highly recruited. Joe I'm located in the Piedmont Triad area, check your PM.
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Post by jrk5150 on Feb 20, 2012 22:17:39 GMT -6
I think the problem with this thread and some of the responses are the matter of fact absoluteness of the answers. Like OF COURSE an affiliated MS team should run the HS's scheme...which just flat out isn't an absolute truth. MIGHT that give the kids a leg up? Sure, it might.
The number one responsibility of a youth coach, and to me that INCLUDES middle school, is to provide a safe environment to teach the game of football, and to provide a positive experience (note - NOT FUN necessarily) for the kids. There is NO responsibility for some mythical "next level" that may or may not be achievable or relevant to a 8 or even 13 year old kid.
Any coaching staff worth a crap can teach a kid a system in 2 years. That's what you've got with the freshman and sophomore years. I seriously doubt that kids who played youth ball have any advantage over kids that first played as freshman by the time they hit Jr. year and funnel into the varsity team. And that includes all the hitting they have to learn in addition to scheme.
Yes, I suppose if you had a kid who had the system ingrained they could step in and play JV or even varsity as a freshman, but if you know you have one of those kids coming, and if you're worth a darn as a coach you SHOULD know you have one coming, then there are ways to get that kid the play book and get him learning the system before he even gets to the HS. if you're a small program that relies on underclassmen for the varsity, then, well, maybe a youth feeder program IS a great step.
But for most programs, would it be generally helpful if kids walked in freshman year with some system knowledge? Well, sure, I'm sure it would be nice. But you're going to have kids who've never played, and they deserve your full attention as well, so you're going to have to teach basics anyway.
What I would think would be most helpful is if the kids showed up knowing fundamentals and eager to play.
And when it comes down to it - good coaching is good coaching first and foremost. And if the kids are getting good coaching, that's an advantage. Knowing a scheme isn't going to help if the fundamentals stink...
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Post by FBCoachMike on Feb 21, 2012 0:13:16 GMT -6
wybulldogs: I understand what you're saying. However, the basics of our system(s) are blocking, tackling, terminology and effort. You don't have to run our systems to to learn the basics. You can use our terminology and not run our systems. The truth is, youth coaches have to be a lot more flexible with their systems as they only have 25 kids. They often can't force kids into a specific scheme whereas the HS program has 90-100 kids and it's more plug and play.
Hey, I'm all for it if the MS wants to run the HS schemes, but it's not gonna make or break the HS's long term success a tiny bit. (that's my two cents...for what it's worth).
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Post by Coach Huey on Feb 22, 2012 19:00:54 GMT -6
If you are under the HC of the program ... i.e you report to him, you are hired by him, you are essentially part of the high school staff, then I guess you'll do whatever the boss says.
If you are not affiliated - i.e. you don't report to him - then I guess you'll be free to do whatever you like.
Now, we are affiliated with our junior high. Those JH coaches are on our staff. They fall into the "chain of command" or "organizational flow chart" of our coaching staff.
That means, they "run our system". However, a JH game and a HS game are vastly different, and one may not even notice it as the same.
Why? Because they run things more suited to the JH level. They run plays we don't run. They use formations we don't use that often. They do many things differently. More basic, obviously. The major theme in our program is fundamentals - and that is even more the case in the JH. Fundamentals over scheme. Learning to "play the game" more important than "learning the system" if you will.
So, what is the same? Terminology is the same. Overall scheme is the same. (i.e. we're not a wishbone team so our JH doesn't run the wishbone. we are almost exclusive shotgun, so the JH takes quite a few shotgun snaps - but not exclusive)
Most teams are going to line up in an "I" formation. in a "twins" formation. a "Doubles" formation. Why not simply use the same name as the HS? if we call an I formation "Pro" then we have our JH team call the same formation "Pro" ... that is, if they are going to use it. basically, if they are going to use formations or motions we use, then they call it the same as us.
If, they are going to use plays or formations we don't use, we look at how we might call it - how our terminology flows and what rules would apply, and so on - to come up with a name or term... the JH uses it. It stays within our overall philosophy.
If the JH team is going to run a toss play to the right, which we do, then they call it the same as what we call it. They run it more, run it from more formations, etc., but the overall gist is the same. Terminology is fluid.
Likewise, if they are going to run some plays we don't use, then we look at how they 'fit' in our language and rules, etc. and try to determine a way to call them that seems to flow with what we are calling runs that are somewhat like this 'new' one.
In fact, we have 2 high school coaches that spend time everyday with our JH kids .... not necessarily "installing our system" but helping teach fundamentals & techniques through drills. The language is the same from the 7th grade all the way through 12th grade.
So, same system doesn't have to mean anything more than "hey, can we all just use the same language & terms, or at the very least, work to make the majority of our terms very closely related". Using similar language makes the "systems" the same more so than the scheme. Much like every literate person knows basic words, how to form sentences, speak in a very public setting. However, the more educated we become, we can also use bigger words, more elaborate, speak in greater detail and with more description & fluidity while still keeping our overall speech patterns relatively the same.
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Post by mahonz on Feb 24, 2012 11:44:20 GMT -6
Cant really discuss this subject because its unique from district to district.
We haven’t had Middle School sports around here in 20 years. So its youth ball straight into High School ball for all sports. The youth org I currently coach in feeds 4 public High Schools and one Private. Plus we have open enrollment within most districts.
So if a High School coach shows interest in a youth team and wants to “help”. Illegal recruiting.
I cant even begin to teach anything common to the High School programs for two reasons. First my teams are mutt teams with kids going to different High Schools and second, two of the High School programs cant seem to maintain and have become a revolving door for their coaching staffs.
To create a program that is seamless from 2nd grade to the 12th grade is quite impossible. Can’t even call a Pro I a Pro I. Even something as simple as that might not translate for some of the kids.
My only job as a youth coach…teaching a great work ethic and a love for the game. I wouldn’t even consider blocking and tackling as the top priority anymore. Nobody blocks or tackles the same so now these basic fundamentals will probably have to be re-learned anyway.
At the end of the day our org must be doing something right. One of High Schools we feed has won 4 of the last 10 State Titles. The only credit I can take is that I taught the kids a great work ethic early on. Five kids I coached just hoisted the Big Shiny Trophy as starters and are State Champs. That makes me very proud of them especially since all 5 play the same general positions they played as youths.
Its easy to get side tracked from youth into High School. Its also my job to help teach them how to want it if they want it which most do as a 6th grader, for example. A second grader is way more into his post game snack than his High School team. Nothing really more to it than that IMO…and in my situation. Yet...I dont coach kids so that they can become High School football players either. Some will never see a High School football stadium unless they join the Marching Band. But I treat all players equally.
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Post by jlenwood on Feb 27, 2012 9:10:56 GMT -6
I have coached at the local youth level, the JR high level and now the varsity level for several years, so here is my $.02.
Youth level: If your youth program feeds your middle school/JR high program, you would be a fool as a HS staff not to be involved. This doesn't mean you try to cram your program down onto them, but instead you offer your staff, your facilities and anything else you can as an asset to help the youth coaches succeed. Most youth programs would love to have contact with the varsity staff and be treated as peers, so I think this would go a long way to building a YOUTH PROGRAM. (There are a lot of very good coaches at the youth level, so you may end up recruiting more than players).
H/JR High: If the JR High feeds the HS, than I think it is extremely important to be involved, in the way that Huey suggests. Work together to make the programs as integrated as possible. Include the JR High staff in on everything you do. We have ours work the box on Friday night, we typically spend time at the practices etc, just to help out and get the coaches more involved, and it also gives them the feeling of ownership in what they are doing.
Again, our situation is probably different in that all of the football in our town feeds our High School.
Also, and this is just a pet peeve of mine, but indian1 suggested that just because his JR high staff wasn't "educators" they were somehow less than qualified as coaches. What does being an "educator" have to do with anything? If they aren't good coaches, find a way to help them get there.
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Post by jhanawa on Feb 27, 2012 12:14:07 GMT -6
Building a relationship with the youth coaches in the community is important to us regardless if they choose to use any of our terminology or plays. The important thing is that they are teaching sound fundamentals, our schemes and terminology are simple enough that we can teach the kids that stuff when they get to our school. Part of our commitment to building relationships with our youth coaches is that we put on free coaching clinics for our area's youth coaches. This is our second year of putting on these coaching clinics, tonight we'll be having our second of four clinics for this year. During these clinics, we discuss what we do, but mostly find out what it is that they (youth coaches) are doing and what problems they are having with it, then we discuss possible solutions. When we discuss a blocking scheme, I'll show film of how we use it from our formations and then discuss how it could be used from their formations. I try to tailor the clinic to improving what they do, I'm not trying to get them to run our stuff. I really try to focus a lot of our clinic attention on line play because that seems to be the biggest area of concern with most youth coaches.
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