CoachF
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Posts: 378
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Post by CoachF on Jan 1, 2012 16:24:09 GMT -6
When it comes to coaching middle school football, how important do you think it is to run similar offense and defenses as the high school? Ive been thinking of running just a I formation offense and keeping it simple. The High School however runs a spread offense, i have one player that could play qaurterback in that offense, but if he went down its doubtful there could be a replacement. I think the transition to high school ball would be a little quicker running a similar offense, but i think they could have more success in a more simple offense.
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Post by bluedevil4 on Jan 1, 2012 16:38:27 GMT -6
Use the same terminology, techniques, as well as the base philosophy? Emphasize these things and most HS coaches couldn't care less what else you do.
My last year of coaching 8th grade, the varsity was a wing-T-jet sweep team (always had a SE). At the 8th grade, we ran nothing but double tight straight T. We kept the terminology and techniques the same, and ran nothing but buck series, as well as a down and quick pitch here and there. It still wasn't as much like the varsity as I wanted, but the 8th grade HC wouldn't have it, and we still went 5-1. I may go as much as to include the varsity's primary formation and play, unless you really don't have the physical ability to do so.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 1, 2012 17:08:53 GMT -6
When it comes to coaching middle school football, how important do you think it is to run similar offense and defenses as the high school? Ive been thinking of running just a I formation offense and keeping it simple. The High School however runs a spread offense, i have one player that could play qaurterback in that offense, but if he went down its doubtful there could be a replacement. I think the transition to high school ball would be a little quicker running a similar offense, but i think they could have more success in a more simple offense. Absolutely, positively UNimportant.
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Post by Chris Clement on Jan 1, 2012 18:21:25 GMT -6
As both the JV QB coach and the HC of the feeder school, I do not, I would not, and if any HS HC tried to demand it, I would tell him to go blow. I will deliver fundamentally sound players with a general understanding of the game who enjoyed playing and are willing to play another season. If a HS program can't turn that into an effective player, maybe he should seek new employment.
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Post by coachbb on Jan 1, 2012 18:36:53 GMT -6
Maybe you should talk to the high school about what they want you to run. A well-organized high school program should be able to modify their systems for lower level teams. Here in Texas, every JH/MS program is aligned with the HS.
Maybe the style of play is different, maybe the formations are much simpler, but I think it is important to get the players used to certain terminology, procedures, and drills.
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Post by chi5hi on Jan 1, 2012 19:28:02 GMT -6
Maybe you should talk to the high school about what they want you to run. A well-organized high school program should be able to modify their systems for lower level teams. Here in Texas, every JH/MS program is aligned with the HS. Maybe the style of play is different, maybe the formations are much simpler, but I think it is important to get the players used to certain terminology, procedures, and drills. So if the high school staff changes next year do you intend to start over with a new system based upon what the new HC wants?
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 1, 2012 19:33:03 GMT -6
Maybe you should talk to the high school about what they want you to run. A well-organized high school program should be able to modify their systems for lower level teams. Here in Texas, every JH/MS program is aligned with the HS. Maybe the style of play is different, maybe the formations are much simpler, but I think it is important to get the players used to certain terminology, procedures, and drills. So if the high school staff changes next year do you intend to start over with a new system based upon what the new HC wants? From what I gather, they kind of "have to". The organizational structure and environment is such that the H.S. varsity coach controls everything down to the middle school level.
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Post by bluedevil4 on Jan 1, 2012 19:35:04 GMT -6
That's how we've always done it, but very vaguely. Like I said, just about all we do that is the same is the terminology. It's not a big transition at the MS level because most of the kids forget everything they learned the year before anyways, so learning new terminology isn't as difficult.
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Post by chi5hi on Jan 1, 2012 19:42:56 GMT -6
So if the high school staff changes next year do you intend to start over with a new system based upon what the new HC wants? From what I gather, they kind of "have to". The organizational structure and environment is such that the H.S. varsity coach controls everything down to the middle school level. We have a local HS here which has changed complete staffs for three consecutive years. Each new HC brought in his new system. The kids who have had to try and learn those "have to" parameters are simply confused and have learned little while making almost no progress in learning fundamentals or being prepared for high school ball. As for me, I wouldn't ask it, nor would I operate within it.
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Post by coachbb on Jan 1, 2012 20:07:35 GMT -6
Maybe you should talk to the high school about what they want you to run. A well-organized high school program should be able to modify their systems for lower level teams. Here in Texas, every JH/MS program is aligned with the HS. Maybe the style of play is different, maybe the formations are much simpler, but I think it is important to get the players used to certain terminology, procedures, and drills. So if the high school staff changes next year do you intend to start over with a new system based upon what the new HC wants? Yep. If you are doing your own thing at the JH/MS level the kids would have to learn a new system once they got to HS anyway, right?
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Post by coachbb on Jan 1, 2012 20:09:39 GMT -6
From what I gather, they kind of "have to". The organizational structure and environment is such that the H.S. varsity coach controls everything down to the middle school level. We have a local HS here which has changed complete staffs for three consecutive years. Each new HC brought in his new system. The kids who have had to try and learn those "have to" parameters are simply confused and have learned little while making almost no progress in learning fundamentals or being prepared for high school ball. As for me, I wouldn't ask it, nor would I operate within it. If you worked with a program that changed staffs three straight years then you have bigger problems that what the JH/MS is running.
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Post by coachmoore42 on Jan 2, 2012 1:23:41 GMT -6
A middle school coach can't control turnover of the high school staff, but he can prepare his kids to succeed at the next level. That said, we run our high school's offense. It's spread. We have the entire offense at our disposal, and we pick and choose what will be effective with our kids from year to year. They get to the high school hearing the same terminology, they just have to add to what they know. This is the way I feel it should be done.
Case in point, we had a QB two years ago who was a great athlete. He went to the high school and stepped in to run the JV offense on day one of spring practice, while the QBs from the other two feeder schools looked lost. He was so proud of it that he had to come tell me the next chance he had. That was one of the proudest moments I've had as a coach, and a major reason why I will continue to run the high school's stuff.
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Post by 19delta on Jan 7, 2012 22:01:47 GMT -6
I resigned as our 7th/8th grade coach because I was informed that we would be required to run the high school offense and defense next year.
Our high school program is simply awful...we are the laughingstock of the conference. I'm not running the high school's "stuff" if the guys who wrote it don't know what they are doing.
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Post by shamespiral on Jan 7, 2012 22:51:47 GMT -6
There are some places were the JH has no choice but to run the HS stuff...
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Post by coachschro on Jan 7, 2012 22:57:55 GMT -6
Our coach has turned or high school program around over the last five years. We are running as much of what they are as possible.
There is just no replacement for the number of passing and catching reps our kids are getting. I think it will pay big dividends for us in the future.
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Post by CatsCoach on Jan 13, 2012 15:52:19 GMT -6
I think that if you can or want to great but if you can’t or don’t want to I would worry about it, as long as your sending them kids that a fundamentally sound that they can work with. That is the main thing that both High Schools that the kids from our youth program will go to have said, just give us kids that are fundamentally sound. And they are willing to help if we want to run what either schools runs on O or D
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Post by chi5hi on Jan 13, 2012 17:04:10 GMT -6
We have a local HS here which has changed complete staffs for three consecutive years. Each new HC brought in his new system. The kids who have had to try and learn those "have to" parameters are simply confused and have learned little while making almost no progress in learning fundamentals or being prepared for high school ball. As for me, I wouldn't ask it, nor would I operate within it. If you worked with a program that changed staffs three straight years then you have bigger problems that what the JH/MS is running. When did I ever say I worked for that program?
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Post by chi5hi on Jan 13, 2012 17:07:03 GMT -6
Mirroring the HS system makes you an unpaid varsity assistant.
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Post by wybulldogs on Jan 20, 2012 8:17:46 GMT -6
Where I coach now was also where I grew up playing. The last HC of the program ran the Wing-T, and as a result, we ran the Wing-T from little on up. As a result, the install period at the varsity level was very little, as we had learned the offense from day 1 of our playing careers. It made the transition that much easier. 8 years ago, he retired and our current HC took over. We now run a mix of pro style and spread.
The varsity has their system. I have a slightly trimmed down version for my 9th grade team, and an even more trimmed down version for my 7th/8th grade teams. In the last 3 years we've trimmed it down to a basic system and taken it down to our youth level teams.
The biggest things we focus on are the formations, system terminology, offensive blocking techniques, and basic plays. We've also simplified our defense to at least have them using the same terminology.
It just makes the install time frame shorter, and your job easier if they have already learned the basics of the system.
As a MS coach, you're there to help build the groundwork of the program and feed it with talent ready to play. It only makes sense to run a version of the Varsity system.
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Post by coachdoug on Jan 20, 2012 9:26:40 GMT -6
As a MS coach, you're there to help build the groundwork of the program and feed it with talent ready to play. It only makes sense to run a version of the Varsity system. Yes, if you are a MS coach that directly feeds one HS, then you really are part of their system and what you're saying makes sense. However, a lot of us (most of us, perhaps) here are youth coaches in AYF, Pop Warner, or some independent youth or rec league that isn't affiliated with any particular school. My teams from my old program sent kids to at least 20 different high schools over the years. I'm not even sure where all the players on my team from this past season are going to HS next year, but I know it includes at least 7 different high schools. It also sounds like you've had a lot of stability at your high school - very little turnover in coaches and very little change in scheme. That's pretty uncommon - in most places the average tenure of a HS head coach is probably about 5 yrs (certainly less than 10), and coordinators (and thus schemes) change even more often. So, given that, for most of us trying to emulate any particular high school's program/scheme makes little sense. If I'm coaching 7th graders, how do I even pick which HS to emulate? I could probably choose from 10-12 schools that players are likely to end up at - maybe that's helpful for the handful of kids that go to whichever school I pick, but doesn't do anything special for all the other kids on the team. Of course, there is no guarantee that the HS will even still be using that scheme when those players reach varsity in 3-4 years (in fact, there is a good likelihood that they will be running something different by then). When we start talking about coaching 3rd or 4th graders then it becomes even more absurd to worry about what the locals high schools are doing - with kids that young, the population of potential high school destinations is even larger, and it's almost a certainty that the high school will be running something different by the time those kids reach the varsity level in 6-8 years.
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Post by wybulldogs on Jan 20, 2012 9:38:16 GMT -6
I guess I really am lucky with the situation in my area.
We have the youth leagues and those programs are divided by school district, so you do in fact play in the same program from little on up if you stay in that school district.
We do also have a great deal of stability with our varsity program. Our last HC was the HC for something like 20 years.
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Post by jrk5150 on Jan 20, 2012 10:00:08 GMT -6
We are a town based Pop Warner program with no Middle School program. We feed the town HS, except for kids that elect to go to a vocational or private HS. Our HS has a freshman team.
Our program goes from ages 7 to 14. We have no program wide system or scheme, each coach/team does his own thing. Our two oldest age groups, which encompass grades 6-8 (smaller 9th graders are eligible, but most play freshman ball at the HS). Right now, from 9 year old up, our HC's all have over 8 years of youth HC experience, most have much more. Meaning these aren't Dads coming through for a few years with their kids. The 7-8's have that, but 9's and up are coaches who have been doing this for a while, with staffs that are pretty stable and long term as well. Let me also note we are one of the better programs in the region, consistently in the mix for the league title in every age group.
Our two older age groups, Jr. Midget and Midget, have HC's that are also long time HS AC's, neither in our town. They would both love to work directly with the HS program, in fact the Jr. Midget coach played for the HS HC. But the HS staff from top to bottom want NOTHING to do with the youth program. In fact, at times they seem to go out of their way to avoid us. There seems to be some bad blood there, but mostly on the side of the HS HC, nobody in the youth program is holding any kind of grudge.
And that's not even getting into their lack of continuity year to year in their offense and schemes. They've been down for a few years, had their first winning season in 5 years this past year. It's a traditionally strong program, though.
The current HC has been in the program for a long time, and is nearing retirement. We'll see if the next guy is any more accommodating.
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Post by wybulldogs on Jan 20, 2012 10:11:21 GMT -6
If you are a HC of a varsity program and are lucky enough to have dedicated youth program for your district, you should want to at least be visible a few times each season to that program and those kids. Take a day and go to one of their games. Spend a day at the elementary schools speaking to those kids. In some instances, the Head Football Coach really is the face of that school district. Get them on board early, and it will only pay off in the long run.
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Post by M4 on Jan 23, 2012 7:37:09 GMT -6
I'm actually going to use the local NFL teams terminology and systems because that way when my middle school kids get to the NFL they are already prepared for the system, it's actually a way smarter option right? I mean our job is to totally get kids ready for the next level and theres no level higher then the NFL.
Think about it, does your local HS run the local colleges system? Nope!
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Post by wybulldogs on Jan 23, 2012 7:58:49 GMT -6
I'm actually going to use the local NFL teams terminology and systems because that way when my middle school kids get to the NFL they are already prepared for the system, it's actually a way smarter option right? I mean our job is to totally get kids ready for the next level and theres no level higher then the NFL. Think about it, does your local HS run the local colleges system? Nope! That's a very narrow minded attitude to have. Is your school's program fractured somewhere, that there is a disconnect between the Jr High Program and the Varsity Program? I absolutely hate losing and my goal is to win every game. That being said, the greater goal is the success of the Varsity program. That's the program that is the face of the school district. That's the program that puts the majority of the money back into the sports budget, which pays for every other sport. The MS program is the feeder program for the Varsity. Get the kids accustomed to the schemes and style of play, get them physically and mentally prepared for the Varsity program. No those 9th graders won't be as mentally or physically ready as the Seniors, but they'll have a good base to build on. The HC of our program came from coaching in the college ranks, so our program tends to run business wise like a college program.
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Post by M4 on Jan 23, 2012 10:28:34 GMT -6
As a youth coach it doesn't make sense to me to run a system I don't know or appreciate unless my position is directly appointed by the HS. Why doesn't the HS run my system since my kids have already learned it and played in it?
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Post by wybulldogs on Jan 23, 2012 10:41:48 GMT -6
As a youth coach it doesn't make sense to me to run a system I don't know or appreciate unless my position is directly appointed by the HS. Why doesn't the HS run my system since my kids have already learned it and played in it? That makes no sense. Youth? Are we talking peewee age here, or Middle School? If it's Middle School, you more likely are tied directly into a HS program, and should be running their system. Like I said, it's the Varsity program that gets the attention and pays the bills. As a MS coach, it's your job to be the feeder program and get the players ready to step into their role as they move up to the varsity program. If it's a peewee/boys club level, that's where the lines are blurred. Our Boys Club was running a bunch of different things depending on the age level. It was a mess each season, and as the kids moved up each age level, they had to be taught brand new things. We decided it was best for everyone if we tailored the system for the different levels, that way it made it easier on the kids and the coaches in the long run.
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Post by coachdoug on Jan 23, 2012 11:55:20 GMT -6
Again, there is an important distinction that needs to be made to determine if running the HS systems makes any sense. If you are a MS coach, meaning your players primarily go to one HS within a year or two, and you're employed by the school district, then you are effectively part of the same system as the high school and it makes sense to take direction from the varsity HS coach.
However, if you are an independent youth coach (as I believe the vast majority of youth coaches here are), especially with younger players, and you are a volunteer in a program that has no formal or financial ties to any school district or specific HS, then running the HS program's schemes makes about as much sense as the HS running the local college's schemes.
The two scenarios are just completely different situations - in one case it makes perfect to run the HS schemes, and in the other case it makes absolutely no sense at all.
Having said that, regardless of the situation, in my experience the best and most successful HS coaches don't care what schemes the players learn in youth ball - all they care about is that the kids learn good fundamentals and have a love for the game, because if they get turned off football and don't play at all in HS, then what scheme they ran makes no difference at all. If they can have a lot of players come out for the HS team, and they have a good base of fundamentals, any decent coach can teach them a scheme very quickly.
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Post by coachbrek on Jan 23, 2012 13:32:48 GMT -6
We mirror the high school, every situation is different, but we started our private youth organization to help the high school, we were the only town our size who did not have youth football, our kids were getting murdered in 7th and 8th grade, kids got frustrated and quit.
That was 11 years ago, our first group of kids that had youth football went to the state championship their senior year.
We did not mirror the high school but worked on the fundamentals of blocking and tackling, we also put a big premium on winning and playing everyone the whole game, no more than 22 players per team so everyone had a starting position and played.
Four years ago the head varsity coach asked us to run the high school offense (wing T) buck and rocket series, it worked out very well for us my team was 30-6 the last three years running the high school offense.
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Post by jrk5150 on Jan 23, 2012 16:57:46 GMT -6
Let me say I've been VERY critical of HS coaches on here who believe a youth program (not even MS, we're talking YOUTH) should be running their local HS's system. And as I said, we currently have nothing to do with the local HS, but that's by their choice.
That said, if the local HS ran a youth friendly system, and was willing to put the time in to help us out, I'd be happy to do it. My son is a freshman, and his team was by FAR the best freshman team in our conference. Almost all of those kids came through the youth program. Their QB walked in the door with a tremendous advantage over anyone else wanting the job, because he'd been groomed for it by a HS OC for two years in our youth program. So while the SYSTEM we ran had nothing to do with it, the fact the coaches they played for were HS AC's who were using age appropriate but HS flavored offenses certainly helped.
So while I personally do not feel any obligation to get kids "ready" for the "next level" since I coach the 10 year old kids, I DO think the Jr. HS age teams in our program should bear that in mind. Not to the detriment of the kids' experience in youth ball, but those kids should walk into freshman ball with an advantage over kids who never played.
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