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Post by outsidethesideline on Sept 14, 2007 22:58:47 GMT -6
As a non-coach who nevertheless loves reading all of the wonderful football strategy here on CoachHuey.com, I have a question for you coaches out there.
Why did the wishbone go away?
Obviously, it was the offense in college football for a long time, and teams like Alabama, Oklahoma, and Texas -- just to name a few -- racked up countless national championships using it as their driving force on offense. Well on up into the 1980's, the wishbone was still very prevalent, though at that point it was, admittedly, probably on its way out.
Today, of course, the offense is simply non-existent. Some teams may use some of the major principles of the wishbone, but no major Division 1-A program (and by that I mean BCS subdivision) uses the wishbone to my knowledge, and obviously it's not looking like it will be making a comeback any time soon.
I've heard some of the various reasons as to why it went away, but to be quite honest, I've never been particularly impressed with any reasoning, and honestly I've always felt the reasons were more drivel by the talking head "experts" on TV more than anything else.
I understand that with a question as open and as philosophical as this one that there won't be one "answer," so to speak, but nevertheless I would like some insight and your opinions on the subject. Why did it rise, why did it fall, etc.
Please discuss.
Thanks in advance for the replies, guys.
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crl
Junior Member
Pick me , pick me... I want to be on the RNC location scout team.
Posts: 476
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Post by crl on Sept 15, 2007 2:29:18 GMT -6
Smarter, faster and better defense players. Clock management, takes time to score, against an air game, you have no chance, like the DW in college will work some of the time but not always. Working the clock can be a two edge sword.
Qb´s coming from HS programs are not running back, with new gun spread yes but this is a hybrid, Booty and Mustain are the best examples of this coming from HS and how they have and will adapt at USC...the Arkansas mistake set aside., but like the great Veer QB´s they really don´t go further in carrier in the pros.
The dynamic of the game has changed as well as the knowledge and inception of WCO and how that has morphed into Spread, Ace back and the use of the I in passing game.
The Wishbone and my beloved Veer where a Offense predicated on what talent do I have and how can I make the most of it. Coach Yeoman at Houston developed the Veer from a mistake they saw on film and then realized they could do something with this! Also nobody wanted to go to Houston, why Texas, Texas AM , SMU was in their heyday, Tex Christian, Baylor , Rice...that left little old Houston all by itself.( THIS WAS TOLD TO ME BY THE MAN HIMSELF).
The Wishbone is still used somewhat, last year scouting I saw it in Action in a local N. Cal HS team, that the OC is a member here. The Veer is still strong and still in great use, not in college as much but in HS, attested by the fanatics on this web page.
I hope this helps.
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 165
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Post by tedseay on Sept 15, 2007 8:30:28 GMT -6
Smarter, faster and better defense players. Clock management, takes time to score, against an air game, you have no chance, like the DW in college will work some of the time but not always. Working the clock can be a two edge sword. Coach: I agree to a certain extent -- but the flexbone is basically an "exploded" wishbone running many of the same play series. It is what has kept teams like Air Force and Navy competing on near-equal terms with IA schools that don't have service commitments or summer training that knocks weight off players like water going over Niagara Falls. The flexbone forces defenses to spread out more and allows the option attack to function in space. I think that's what really killed the wishbone -- the Miami 4-3 took away running gaps and allowed safeties to make kill-shots at or near the LOS.
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Post by phantom on Sept 15, 2007 8:59:20 GMT -6
Boosters won't allow big time programs to hire coaches that want to play option football.
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Post by davecisar on Sept 15, 2007 10:05:19 GMT -6
Would you consider Texas A&M or Florida to be "option" teams? I thnk A&M passed for 74 yards last week in their OT win.
I would think here in Nebraska we just want to win, wouldnt matter if they ran Polecat, DW, SW or Veer, as long as it won. The stadium is gonna sell out no matter what is run or what the record is.
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Post by groundchuck on Sept 15, 2007 10:29:38 GMT -6
The flexbone is just another way to run the wishbone but now you have the quick passing game and 4-verts to contend with.
At the HS level it certainly has not gone away, as run it sometimes and so do some of our opponents. It is a great power football formation.
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Post by wildcat on Sept 15, 2007 13:19:05 GMT -6
I wish that the Bone went away...saw it last night up close and personal as it dropped 400+ yards and 46 points on us last night! ;D
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Post by bulldogoption on Sept 15, 2007 13:31:00 GMT -6
The Miami 4-3 and it's !@#$@!$ Mike Linebacker...... In my experience, it is an execution offense. Sometimes it gets old asking your kids to execute when they are weaker. For all intents and purposes it has little misdirection to it. It has deception, but not misdirection. This can frustrate coaches. Something like the Wing-T has misdirection for example. It is an offense that takes a tremendous amount of time to perfect. Once perfected it can be explosive, but getting to perfection can be too long for many coaches.
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Post by phantom on Sept 15, 2007 15:26:23 GMT -6
Would you consider Texas A&M or Florida to be "option" teams? I thnk A&M passed for 74 yards last week in their OT win. I would think here in Nebraska we just want to win, wouldnt matter if they ran Polecat, DW, SW or Veer, as long as it won. The stadium is gonna sell out no matter what is run or what the record is. Then why did they make a point of hiring a pro passing guy after they fired Solich? I didn't say that I agree with it but that's how it is.
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Post by phantom on Sept 15, 2007 15:29:08 GMT -6
The flexbone is just another way to run the wishbone but now you have the quick passing game and 4-verts to contend with. At the HS level it certainly has not gone away, as run it sometimes and so do some of our opponents. It is a great power football formation. So do we, although we run it the I-bone variation. To answer the post about misdirection, that's one thing that the I-bome does give us.
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Post by coachbb on Sept 15, 2007 16:08:09 GMT -6
Strategically, I think main problem with the wishbone is only having two receivers who can quickly get into a pattern. Not trying to bash the true wishbone, or definetely not the triple option, but just offering my two cents.
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Post by brophy on Sept 15, 2007 16:29:43 GMT -6
bone is awesome, and I don't know that it "went away". I believe, like already stated, that TRADITIONAL bone formations may be a little outdated, though. Lining up in one (or two) formations limits an offense considerably. Now, if can you run triple option / veer out of a bunch of different formations and threaten a defense in a lot of different ways? Ask Florida, WV, etc.......... I think the big thing ( and it goes back to one of the greatest threads ever posted in the history of mankind....... coachhuey.proboards42.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1185230488&page=6) is if you cannot be more than a one-trick pony, you'd better out-athlete your opponent. It is a little easier to defend an offense when you know they will only run one formation and two plays, rather than 15 formations and 10 variations off of 6 plays. As far as the "big time" programs not running it, it is difficult to compete with Super U with their 5 1st round draft picks, and you don't have any NFL prospects. It is difficult to get drafted as an OL in the NFL when you have never had to work on pass protection..............(follow the logic on that one..........backs as receivers........would you draft an Option wingback as your 1st round wide receiver?) Cornhuskers? Boosters wanted a "Pro Offense" as I remember, because they couldn't get the OL pipeline fed and those studly I-Backs were going to the other Big 12 schools (OU, Tech, Texas, KState, etc).....how difficult was it for them to actually recruit actual receivers?
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Post by coachmacplains on Sept 15, 2007 22:18:17 GMT -6
1. Easier for defenses to prepare for; not saying assignments are easy, but when the formation limits the types of thing you can do, the defense doesn't have as much to work against. 2. Quarterbacks have been schooled into doing things that a generation ago most coaches wouldn't have thought to ask them to do. The option hasn't gone away obviously, but option QBs with arms and imagination that can run option has really opened up the game. 3. Some very innovative people have sat down with their Xs and Os scribblings, used their imaginations, and tried things out in practices and games that many considered fluff. Many of us have benefited from the risk some of these guys have taken.
BTW, I heard the Devner Broncos ran a bit of option with Cutler last week. What kind of formation and concept did they use there?
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Post by tog on Sept 15, 2007 22:36:12 GMT -6
watch navy play
flexbone is the new wishbone with the ability to get 4 verts right now
also flexbone stuff is simple to turn into gun option stuff
now, power wishbone teams that run sweep, power, counter, double iso etc
tough tough tough to stop
especially when they add some triple option in there
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crl
Junior Member
Pick me , pick me... I want to be on the RNC location scout team.
Posts: 476
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Post by crl on Sept 16, 2007 3:06:24 GMT -6
Forgot about Flex Bone Ted/Tog....blame that on watching Royal/Bryant in the late 60´s and early 70´s. Hell my Cousins son was a starting WB for Navy 2 years running and got drafted, its still open when he is out if he ever leaves. Polish side of the family, Detroit should fit right in. HA! The idea of 4 verts and the old bone is as strange as mayonnaise on a sundae. I always see the flex bone as option /pass combo...not a get behind the small farm animal or large human being and run over the guy. Also the advent of the 44 can be attributed to the Bone- assignment football 101.
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Post by davecisar on Sept 16, 2007 6:21:33 GMT -6
Would you consider Texas A&M or Florida to be "option" teams? I thnk A&M passed for 74 yards last week in their OT win. I would think here in Nebraska we just want to win, wouldnt matter if they ran Polecat, DW, SW or Veer, as long as it won. The stadium is gonna sell out no matter what is run or what the record is. Then why did they make a point of hiring a pro passing guy after they fired Solich? I didn't say that I agree with it but that's how it is. My point exactly, we dontncare what type of offense we use, as long as it is one that wins games and puts you in the conversation for a NAtional Title. Im not a huge fan of the WCO, but I wouldnt care what they ran as long as they won. Solich was fired because of his lack of decisiveness, he was a terrible CEO and an absolutley horrible recruiter. You have to be more than a hard worker to head coach elite College programs IMHO< you have to be a great leader and a descent communicator. Bringing in a bunch of recruits in December with no game on and snow on the ground, instead of during a game in nice weather with a sold out for the 275th straight time stadium, seems pretty elementery. Like anything, it's about priorities. They didnt hire a pro passing guy to sell tickets that is a foregone conclusion with a 10-20 year wait on season tickets. They hired him because that is what the current AD thinks he needs to win a National Title. Against Nevada this year, NU ran 2 option plays with the 2nd team QB and they got a standing ovation from the crowd after both plays. Fans went bonkers when they saw the old FB trap play ran for the first time in 4 years during the same game. The fans here love the run game but could care less what we run as long as they win.
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Post by Yash on Sept 16, 2007 11:10:05 GMT -6
The Miami 4-3 and it's !@#$@!$ Mike Linebacker...... In my experience, it is an execution offense. Sometimes it gets old asking your kids to execute when they are weaker. Not trying to take this back to a thread from a month ago, but isn't every offense an execution offense? I don't think there is an offense that you don't have to execute to be successful. I'm not sure any offense has more room for error than any other. In every play you run, it only takes one guy to blow an assignment to go from Touchdown to turnover or big loss.
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 16, 2007 11:27:31 GMT -6
YASH--I think what he means is that the philosophy of the wishbone was simply "we are going to get our guys to do a very small number of things better than you can get your guys to defend them" Wishbone triple option wasn't a "game-plan" offense in terms of trying to use a unch of formations or variations of plays to scheme up an opponent.
I think one reason the Bone in particular died out was that it was/is VERY boring to coach for many people. Not many barroom napkin doodles by WB option coaches, so it takes a coach content on simply making their kids EXECUTE play after play after play (Novicane analogy). Many coaches prefer other aspects of the game, and thus choose not to coach WB option.
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Post by Coach Huey on Sept 16, 2007 11:48:56 GMT -6
wishbone = a formation option = a scheme
the scheme still exists, just teams are doing it from different formations. reason, i believe, is to spread the field more and to use motions to get various/different athletes involved in the scheme while allowing the initial formation to stretch the defense for other schemes
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Post by coachmacplains on Sept 16, 2007 17:15:27 GMT -6
I think wishbone is a very viable formation still, namely at the high school level; we played a team Friday that successfully runs out of it, but they run no option - mostly dive, toss, counter. However, it seems to make sense to let kids' talents shine when they have them. IMO Tommy Frazier was as good an option quarterback as there has been, but I think his talents would have been limited by straight wishbone.
BTW, as a Nebraska alum, there is still something in my heart that wants to see the farmboys at OL and FB clearing swaths to run through. Oh well, those days are probably gone for good....
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Post by cqmiller on Sept 17, 2007 9:43:41 GMT -6
I wish that the Bone went away...saw it last night up close and personal as it dropped 400+ yards and 46 points on us last night! ;D Many defenses used to be the old 4-6 "Bear" defense and others like it that were man coverage, 8+ people in the box, and were hard to make adjustments to the bone/veer... Once the 4-3 came around with more zone coverages, and easier adjustments to confuse the QB's reads, it took a team with FAR SUPPERIOR talent to run it at the college level (like the Nebraska teams in the 80's/90's). It is still a great offense at the high school level, because high school teams seldom have the athletes at every defensive position necessary to stop it. It is a tough offense to stop, just like the split-back veer, unless you stay "PERFECT" with your discipline on defense
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Post by hemlock on Sept 17, 2007 17:07:36 GMT -6
Coach Huey makes an excellent point - the Wishbone is simply a formation, nothing else. Conversely, the option is a philosophy. When I last coached (6 years ago) we ran the Spread before it become really popular. We ran Inside Veer, Outside Veer - the same thing that made the old Bill Yeoman veer go.
I think one reason why besides the virtues of 4 and 5 Hot of the Option out of the Spread is the fact that it is easier to coach. The footwork for the QB is much easier - even in the passing game. Also, if anybody saw UNLV play Wisconsin 2 weeks ago, they ran out of empty 1/3 of the time. Once they established the option nobody blitzed them. Thus getting five out into the patter from empty is no longer a problem.
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Post by wingman on Sept 17, 2007 20:38:11 GMT -6
The old wishbone coaches I kno wsaid teh rule change stopping the hbs from cutting the ends made them drop the offense.
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Post by vassdiddy on Sept 19, 2007 20:44:10 GMT -6
Speaking for OJW, the 4 man front with block down, step down principles would be the answer.
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Post by groundchuck on Sept 20, 2007 9:36:02 GMT -6
For all you bone guys, I find it hard to be balanced this year when in the bone b/c we really only have one good TB/HB which is why I run more string I. How do you stay "balanced up" when one runningback is significantly better than the others.
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shs06
Junior Member
Posts: 288
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Post by shs06 on Sept 20, 2007 12:02:32 GMT -6
We are a spread team that uses the bone as a short yardage formation and it has been good for us in the past.
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Post by phantom on Sept 20, 2007 19:00:44 GMT -6
For all you bone guys, I find it hard to be balanced this year when in the bone b/c we really only have one good TB/HB which is why I run more string I. How do you stay "balanced up" when one runningback is significantly better than the others. Try the stacked I-bone.
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Post by outlawjoseywales on Sept 20, 2007 19:21:46 GMT -6
Yes, the bone is dead, R.I.P. and I for one, am sad about that. I was an option QB from the 70's, so the option is part of my youth.
The option however is not dead, it has taken on a new form. Putting it with the shotgun with a mobile QB is brilliant. A team with a mobile QB who can also throw the ball is quite a handful.
However, the days of having kids stalk block all day are long gone. Well you can do that but your basketball athletes will simply go home. The shotgun spread option also takes care of that one too. You can have great passing offense and option all rolled into one.
The Wishbone is gone however. Vass said it for me. I personally saw the end of an era, when Oklahoma went down to Miami and met the 4-3. With it's block down step down rules and its dedicated MLB, its Cover 2 secondary and edge End play, the Wishbone didn't have anywhere to go. I only wish that I would have had the 4-3 earlier in my coaching years.
There were two things that doomed both the Wishbone and the Veer. The first killer was the rule change. I was coaching when they changed the rule where you could no longer cut the EMOLOS. That year large numbers of coaches that I knew left the veer and went to the Wing-t. That was 1982 I think.
The 2nd was the 4-3 Miami (Over) defense that spelled the end of the Wishbone offense. Now the option doesn't use a blocking to cut the defender who has the pitch assignment.
So I believe it was a number of things that killed off the Wishbone. OJW
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Post by burtledog on Sept 20, 2007 20:54:51 GMT -6
I think everyone said said why. Change blocking rules. Can't get enough recievers out fast enough. Triple option and inside belly series take a bit of time to work on. I don't see how we can say it doesn't have deception. The ISV is deceptive. Their are counters from each back and series. We had footage in here a month or two ago from SC of a team running Wing-T series from the Wishbone. You can definitely be deceptive from the Wishbone. Greg
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Post by coachbrea on Sept 21, 2007 11:19:03 GMT -6
I coached and played in a wishbone offense in High School. The kids that I coached as 8th graders in 2001 (ran strictly wishbone - dive, cross, counter, power, option) continued running the same offense their entire H.S. careers. They ran the traditional "wishbone" all the way to a state championship in the 3rd largest class in the state of Michigan. The following season the program went to the Semi-finals, and this year they are 4-0 already. I like the bone, but I employ the Bay-City Wing-T. I just like the angle blocking, misdirection, and having to account for 4 backs better. But when the bone is run right both with the linemen and the backs run hard...its pretty sweet.
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