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Post by coachcb on Feb 22, 2009 10:36:14 GMT -6
Lol, I know, Los, I just read it and didn't mean for it to come off like that.You asked a hyppthetical question and I answered a little too formally. Sorry 'bout that.
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Post by bcurrier on Feb 22, 2009 11:47:09 GMT -6
This thread reminded me of an insightful article from Jeff Janssen. This generation of adolescents (teens thru early'20's) is being called "the millenial generation" or "millenials." The article "Seven Keys to Coaching Today's Millenial Generation Athlete" can be read at www.championshipcoachesnetwork.com/public/378.cfm
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Post by brophy on Feb 23, 2009 7:48:12 GMT -6
I don't me to be such an agitator, but my only question / contention is..... "Sense of Entitlement".....where do you think kids get this attitude and why? We can crap our pants and ' getoffamylawn' all day to make US feel better, but the sad truth is the generation bitching about it is the same generation that enabled/fostered it. People don't trust authority...and haven't for generations, gee I wonder why. When you have no faith / trust in the powers that be (to look out for your best interest - to at least, NOT screw you over) the only thing you CAN do is take matters into your own hands, and "go for yours". It is convenient to blame 'bad families' and 'bad parents' for THEM not controlling YOUR classroom, but when its all said and done, it really isn't nothing more than just another dynamic to manage. It is a sad reality, but it is what it is - do you actually see another way to look at this? That is my issue - we are complaining about that which we created, and according to the article, This has less to do with social-family influence, but mainly through the educational system's doing. They do not want to do anything to supplement their learning.. but some will actually do it if it goes towards their grade.. With regards to airraider's comments/issue about student apathy.....what can you do outside of being Edward James Almos?
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Post by red2slam on Feb 23, 2009 8:36:01 GMT -6
Brophy, Its start at home. Family. Where do kids get their values come from? If it aint at home? Its from hollywood, politicians, Television, video games.....Do i need to continue? I dont know about you? but if my kids are getting values from them, they are in trouble. The examples set at home WILL be evidence in your kids. Not just your kids, the kids whose parents are on well fare LONG TERM, the kids parents dont care if they do homework or tell their kids its not important, the kids parent who is bringing home a different member of the opposite sex every night and has siblings from three different men or women OR the parent who goes to work EVERY DAY, the parent who lives on what he makes, the parent who Pays his bill ON TIME, the parent who is married and devoted to ONE WOMEN OR MAN. The Parent who preaches that education is not an option BUT NECESSARY and backs it up with consequences. The parent who gives his kids enough chores so they dont have time to sit in front of the boob tube all DAMN DAY. IT starts with the FAMILY.....The results of the break down of the family is showing its ugly head in the kids your showing. WHO ULTIMATELY CONTROLS THE EDUCATION SYSTEM? Who is running the education? And You cant figure why it doesnt work?
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 23, 2009 8:58:49 GMT -6
"Sense of Entitlement".....where do you think kids get this attitude and why? We can crap our pants and ' getoffamylawn' all day to make US feel better, but the sad truth is the generation bitching about it is the same generation that enabled/fostered it. Perhaps, if you group "generations". In this particular case though, you have a particular segment of that generation...the educators, complaining about the changing environment in which they work when they are not a part of the change. Go see how many lawmakers kids attend the public schools that fall under the influence of their laws. See how many school board members have kids attending the lower performing schools in the districts. With all due respect, since you don't work in the classroom, so you are kind of out of your league here. You are essentially becoming the fan who thinks the coach loses the game because he called the wrong plays. The "Bad Familes" and "bad parents" ARE INDEED the core cause of the issue, and they should shoulder the blame. You are forgetting that every moment spent "controlling the class" is a moment stolen from the 27 other children who don't need to "be controlled" A few recent real life situations: 1) was called a cracker head and threatened to be shot in the face. During class. In front of 28 other students. How would you "control" that scenario? The bonus...the kid was F I V E. Yes, Kindergarten boy who did not deal particularly well with being sent to time out because he broke the rules. Go control this situation. 2) Child is running and ramming into other students, knocking them off of the benches they are sitting on while waiting for car pick up. Child punches another child in the face. Child does not stop when told to stop. Remember, if you put your hands on this child, even to protect others, you might not be supported by the school board. (thankfully this situation did not happen to me, but to another student)Go control this situation. (3rd Grade) 3) Student has outburst in class, because student does not get his way. He "wasn't talking" but the teacher gave him a recess detention because his head was facing the opposite direction, his mouth was moving, and noise was audible from his desk. Student throws book at teacher. Student has been through 5..yes count them F I V E expulsion hearings in two years...being returned to the classroom after each hearing with a "new, surefire, can't miss, going to 'meet the student's needs' BIP (behavior improvement plan). 5 expulsion hearings, in which the school board, in its wisdom and fear of the laws governing expulsion, has seen fit to return the student to the general population. (5th Grade). Go control this situation. So, to say "WE" are complaining (educators) about a situation "we" (society, which includes a much larger population than just educators) created is a bit simplistic.
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Post by coachcb on Feb 23, 2009 9:01:13 GMT -6
I don't me to be such an agitator, but my only question / contention is..... "Sense of Entitlement".....where do you think kids get this attitude and why? We can crap our pants and ' getoffamylawn' all day to make US feel better, but the sad truth is the generation bitching about it is the same generation that enabled/fostered it. People don't trust authority...and haven't for generations, gee I wonder why. When you have no faith / trust in the powers that be (to look out for your best interest - to at least, NOT screw you over) the only thing you CAN do is take matters into your own hands, and "go for yours". It is convenient to blame 'bad families' and 'bad parents' for THEM not controlling YOUR classroom, but when its all said and done, it really isn't nothing more than just another dynamic to manage. It is a sad reality, but it is what it is - do you actually see another way to look at this? That is my issue - we are complaining about that which we created, and according to the article, [glow=red,2,300]This has less to do with social-family influence, but mainly through the educational system's doing.[/glow]They do not want to do anything to supplement their learning.. but some will actually do it if it goes towards their grade.. With regards to airraider's comments/issue about student apathy.....what can you do outside of being Edward James Almos? This is the point I have been making all along. I don't think that it's a generational issue and I don't even think that it's family issue. Our current eduation system is driven by the current standardized testing; there's no way around it. But, as several people have pointed out, the kids have nothing invested in doing well on those tests because they don't count towards a grade. And I don't blame the kids for it; if you sit me down in a classroom and make me take test after test for a week and they don't count for anything, I don't know if I could put much effort into them. NOW, if, I'm a high schooler, and you tell me that these tests scores are going to determine whether I pass classes, I'm now accountable for my score and I'm going to put more into it. And now, this gets back to my initial statement of teachers being held 100% accountable for education. A teacher can be very effective in the classroom, teach the material in an engaging and diverse manner, but they, and the school they are working in, are "graded" on how well their students do on a test that they (the students) have no responsibility nor accountability for doing well on.
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 23, 2009 9:08:03 GMT -6
And now, this gets back to my initial statement of teachers being held 100% accountable for education. A teacher can be very effective in the classroom, teach the material in an engaging and diverse manner, but they, and the school they are working in, are "graded" on how well their students do on a test that they (the students) have no responsibility nor accountability for doing well on. Excellent points. One current problem with education is this clamoring for "accountability" when one can not truly define education. Just like trying to determine what "good coaching" is. We have seen tons of threads discussing all the various aspects of what "good coaching" is. But teachers...how do the kids do on their bubble tests. Standardized testing is easy, it is measurable, therefore it is used. Doesn't make it right, NOR DOES it truly make teachers accountable.
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Post by red2slam on Feb 23, 2009 9:09:59 GMT -6
Every argument that has been made here starts at home. if the kids dont get a grade why should they try? If they dont play why should they show up to practice? If I dont get the raise the other guy got why show up to work? Its hand in hand.....And it starts with the breakdown of the family. Kids are now being influenced by Govt and hollywood.
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Post by red2slam on Feb 23, 2009 9:12:07 GMT -6
And now, this gets back to my initial statement of teachers being held 100% accountable for education. A teacher can be very effective in the classroom, teach the material in an engaging and diverse manner, but they, and the school they are working in, are "graded" on how well their students do on a test that they (the students) have no responsibility nor accountability for doing well on. So that leaves us at moral relativism. If it feels good, do it. Sounds like the kids your complaining about. Excellent points. One current problem with education is this clamoring for "accountability" when one can not truly define education. Just like trying to determine what "good coaching" is. We have seen tons of threads discussing all the various aspects of what "good coaching" is. But teachers...how do the kids do on their bubble tests. Standardized testing is easy, it is measurable, therefore it is used. Doesn't make it right, NOR DOES it truly make teachers accountable. So that leaves us at moral relativism. If it feels good, do it. Sounds like the kids your complaining about.
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Post by brophy on Feb 23, 2009 9:17:02 GMT -6
With all due respect, since you don't work in the classroom, so you are kind of out of your league here. You are essentially becoming the fan who thinks the coach loses the game because he called the wrong plays. point taken - and I realize I'm on the losing side of this argument, but most of this, to me, comes off as a circle-the-wagons {censored} session stemming from frustration to control their work environment. It sounds like we expect kids to sit in class motionless for 6 hours, do their worksheets, and not give us any problems, because after all we are just poor teachers!!! I understand the classroom / learning environment is largely out of the control of the individual teacher because of mandated KPI factors. I believe that is probably part of the problem and the source of fatigue/frustration for teachers It is far too easy to just say "ah, the kids these days are just f-ed up!" and write them off, as a blanket excuse not to effort into being an educator. I'm sure there are extreme cases that can be provided to support any argument. I am certain that there are some kids who, as a product of parenting, can be a detriment to the classroom or have anti-social skills - I am not doubting that, I am just not willing to accept that as a carte blanche excuse to {censored} a generation or throw our collective hands in the air. I recognize that we are where we are because throughout the years, with whatever good intentions, have painted ourselves into an education corner. To come up with a better mousetrap, we have become trapped in a CYA environment that doesn't benefit anyone (teachers, students, administrators, parents,etc) - where no one wins.
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Post by red2slam on Feb 23, 2009 9:22:45 GMT -6
Then what is a solution? Money is not the answer....Every year we spend more and more on it, on it. Yes we make cuts, but from previous spending highs.
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Post by coachcb on Feb 23, 2009 9:37:12 GMT -6
And now, this gets back to my initial statement of teachers being held 100% accountable for education. A teacher can be very effective in the classroom, teach the material in an engaging and diverse manner, but they, and the school they are working in, are "graded" on how well their students do on a test that they (the students) have no responsibility nor accountability for doing well on. Excellent points. One current problem with education is this clamoring for "accountability" when one can not truly define education. Just like trying to determine what "good coaching" is. We have seen tons of threads discussing all the various aspects of what "good coaching" is. But teachers...how do the kids do on their bubble tests. Standardized testing is easy, it is measurable, therefore it is used. Doesn't make it right, NOR DOES it truly make teachers accountable. I do think that the principle behind the current education system is sound. I do think that this country needed to define what it wanted taught in the classroom; every step we take towards a definition of "education" is a good thing. As such, I don't have an issue with the standardized testing, I do have an issue with what they count towards. And, this does lead back into the issue with the IEPs that I discussed above. Take my student case; the administration sees a kid failing all of his classes; now they are in a bind. They have to establish an IEP for the student because, again, it comes down the testing. If the kid bombs the testing and they HAVEN'T done something "proactive" (IEP) about it, then, according to the state, they haven't done anything about it. But, in the case I described, it's a vicious circle. The student isn't passing any of the classes because he hasn't done any of the work(i.e. accountability) and the school is afraid he is going to fail the standardized testing because he hasn't done any of the work. So, we establish an IEP for the student that makes him LESS accountable for his school work, in an effort to help him pass a test that he, again, has no accountability for... LOL. Now, don't get me wrong, I have had several learning disabled kids and the IEP process has helped them a great deal. The IEP brought them up to speed and really facilitated their ability to learn. And that's what we are all here for, as coaches and as teachers, to help kids learn.
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Post by coachcb on Feb 23, 2009 9:42:02 GMT -6
Then what is a solution? Money is not the answer....Every year we spend more and more on it, on it. Yes we make cuts, but from previous spending highs. We have give many solutions to the problem. Solutions that are within our control; we can't control what's going on at home and we can't control the media.
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Post by red2slam on Feb 23, 2009 9:47:05 GMT -6
but those are not working....that the point. The root of the problem is well beyond the teacher.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2009 11:18:56 GMT -6
Part of the reasons why I left education--too many questions, too few viable answers. I wanted to be the difference maker in all of this but it doesn't work that way.
You can paint this picture any number of ways:
GENERATIONAL: if our generation is allowing the younger generation to behave according to this model, then it's because of what the one before us did, and the one before them, and the one before them. I have a hard time believing that World War II vets are responsible for the way kids behave today. I grew up with a dad who lived through the Depression and was a WWII vet. I grew up differently than my friends. My dad was a fair man, a good man, and a decent and kind man. In his mind the most important virtues of any man was to be honest and to be a hard worker. We didn't have frills when we were kids because we didn't need them. He literally gave us everything we needed and a little bit of what we wanted. The rest we had to work for.
TEACHERS: This is two-fold. Our society still doesn't respect the job teachers do. Part of it is the perception of summers off. But when the mother of a 3rd grader asks the teacher if she can come in and help, but wants to lead a reading group rather than fix the bulletin board, she doesn't respect the job. Try going to her beauty salon and offering to help and then saying, "but I don't want to wash the combs, I want to do dye jobs."
The teaching profession is not respected by the lay person the way it should be. And I'm not playing the "poor teacher" game, I'm saying that we take the one or two poor teachers we see and the typical stereotypes and we lump them together. You're right, my high school PE teacher sat on a chair and rolled out a ball. And 25 years later he's still doing it and he's been doing it for 37 years. On the other hand, we went on strike 7 years ago for 2%. Cost of living is a 4% increase. We got raked over the coals for that one. Our district can't pass a mill levy yet we're the wealthiest county in the state. Why? Because the misconception is out there that "anyone can teach."
PARENTS: They take a bum rap a lot. And some of it is deserved. But they've had a lot of help with it. Sure, we wish that our kids could go home after school with mom making roast beef, but it's darn hard to make it on just one income a lot. Consequently you have day cares. And day care workers are wonderful people for the most part, but you have a day care with 12 kids on it and you don't know (A) what the parents of those 12 kids are like, and (B) how the daycare dilutes all those different modes of parenting. It has to be somewhere between. If you want your kids to grow up the way you want them to, you have to be with them more often, but that isn't practical unless you're wealthy enough to leave one mom or dad at home with junior.
But everything is more expensive. It's tough to make every possible payment on everything you have with just one check unless that one check is quite large.
MEDIA: It's easy to grow up without mom and dad there to help. More kids today know how to cook themselves a meal than 25 years ago because 25 years ago you had to do the entire process yourself. Now the TV is full of commercials for meals that a kid can do for himself. Seriously, macaroni in 3 minutes! By our own schedules we are forcing our kids to be independent--but independent without first teaching them the skills. Why can't a kid change the oil in his car? Cuz it takes more than the 10 minutes that it takes at Jiffy Lube.
Remember the movie Teachers? The best teacher in the whole movie was the mental patient who wandered in. Why? Because he just taught.
And we've become a kinder, gentler nation and that's not good. Where's the pecking order? I'm not all about the mean stuff, but I remember when reading groups were the rabbits and the turtles. Remember when you'd grade each other's papers and then the teacher would call names and you'd have to announce your grade to everyone?
Remember losing a game in little league? Hell, I remember winning a 4th grade basketball game 35-1 and feeling bad for them, until the next week. I still see one guy on that team. I have to, he's one of the top lawyers in town. Guess it didn't do too much damage.
Blaming one faction of society is like saying that the reason the building burned down was because of fire--it's about conditions too.
You want to make a difference? Call a WW2 vet to come speak in your class before they're all gone. Have them talk about how good the military was because it was easier than what was going on during the Depression. Have one of these gentlemen come tell you what it was like to be drafted at 18 and sent away from home and then invade Normandy and come back alive. You think those guys wanted a quality college education? They demanded a quality education from the professors. College campuses improved because the WW2 vets came home.
sorry, my soapbox is starting to cave in from the weight.
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Post by airraider on Feb 23, 2009 11:50:03 GMT -6
I don't me to be such an agitator, but my only question / contention is..... "Sense of Entitlement".....where do you think kids get this attitude and why? We can crap our pants and ' getoffamylawn' all day to make US feel better, but the sad truth is the generation bitching about it is the same generation that enabled/fostered it. People don't trust authority...and haven't for generations, gee I wonder why. When you have no faith / trust in the powers that be (to look out for your best interest - to at least, NOT screw you over) the only thing you CAN do is take matters into your own hands, and "go for yours". It is convenient to blame 'bad families' and 'bad parents' for THEM not controlling YOUR classroom, but when its all said and done, it really isn't nothing more than just another dynamic to manage. It is a sad reality, but it is what it is - do you actually see another way to look at this? That is my issue - we are complaining about that which we created, and according to the article, This has less to do with social-family influence, but mainly through the educational system's doing. They do not want to do anything to supplement their learning.. but some will actually do it if it goes towards their grade.. With regards to airraider's comments/issue about student apathy.....what can you do outside of being Edward James Almos? How about real life.. applicable rewards? "Hey little dirty Johnny.. I know your daddy is in jail.. and your mom has 5 kids from 3 different men.. but if you just work real hard in class you too will have your very own high school diploma and you will make a whole $1 more an hour!!" Who cares?? Really.. what good is a high school diploma these days if you are not using what you learn to prepare you for college?? What does a kid who will never step foot on a college campus really need with English 4? Sure there could be arguments.. but you will never get that student to understand or believe them.. But.. if you tell little dirty Johnny.. "Hey DJ.. if you work really hard these 4 years.. and pass all of your small engine repair classes, you will leave here with a specialized certificate and you will be able to get a decent job."... then maybe.. just maybe.. DJ will see value in working hard and doing what he needs to do to be productive.. Lets be honest.. what is the TRUE value of a high school diploma if you are not planning on going to college?? Do you really think the local McDonalds is going to make you bring in a copy of your high school diploma if you put down that you earned one? Probably not..
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Post by airraider on Feb 23, 2009 12:05:59 GMT -6
From my post you may gather that I am a proponent of a dual track curriculum. After maybe the sophomore year.. you would be allowed to continue towards college prep.. or vocational..
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Post by jgordon1 on Feb 23, 2009 12:25:44 GMT -6
Irish: nice essay. i like how you rationally present both sides of the story. Yes, it's difficult to make change. Two points i would like to make: #1 You can't make change unless you participate. There is a saying" think outside the box" which I hate. I am trying to do what I can w/in the box we are given. Is it frustrating, yes Will it change no. The changes will be small and maybe not measurable. #2 You never know the effect that you have on somebody or when it happens. Last year, I ran into I man (former player) I didn't recognize, he was now32 years old and he thanked me for things that happened in 1992.
Your point about teacher professionalism: This is a sore subject for me because you often hear teachers whine about not being treated as professionals, yet they go to school in T-shirts and jeans. The run out the building at the last bell, don't want to recieve anymore training
Raider: Call me an idealist, What is the purpose of school? Is it to prepare our workforce, instill American ideals, prepare students to raise families, prepare students for future education? Yes to the above. we are serving a mass market, it's difficult to be all things to all people.. we do the best we can to our abilty. I truly believe it
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Post by saintrad on Feb 23, 2009 12:57:02 GMT -6
I think we need to refocus this conversation back towards the original intent: the sense of student- athlete entitlement (yes this is a coaching forum).
My biggest concern as a coach, as it pertains to player entitlement, has more to do with the thought that a player believes that he should be a starter because: they come to every practice, every summer and weight session; they are 5 foot nothing, a hundred and nothing, runs a 4.5, benches the moon, but has an attitude issue of questioning calls openly, believing that he is a BCS quality scholarship player, and can’t even progress past #2 on the two deep depth chart; the kids that will verbally berate a coach on the sidelines and plays to the crowd as the HS principal is escorting him off the field; the lack of discipline needed to prepare each week is based upon how much you will use them in the game, and not on the understanding of the game plan; on the players that can’t watch a game film without becoming a major distraction or ‘oohh’-ing and ‘ahhh’-ing when one of his team mates gets de-cleated because he missed a block; or the players that quit during a hard practice because they didn’t know that their ejection from the game due to their mouthiness would actually cost them.
These are the same players that have parents that openly heckle and curse from the stands personally attacking the coaching staff and the players themselves, then call the administration and cops for a coach grabbing them to pull them out of the way of a sideline collision because they aren’t paying attention. The parents constantly question your play calling, while yelling down to the coaches on game night, “THAT’S HOW WE ROLL” after their kid gets called for an illegal hit away from the play as a team mate was going to score.
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Post by coachcb on Feb 23, 2009 13:08:47 GMT -6
With all due respect, since you don't work in the classroom, so you are kind of out of your league here. You are essentially becoming the fan who thinks the coach loses the game because he called the wrong plays. point taken - and I realize I'm on the losing side of this argument, but most of this, to me, [glow=red,2,300]comes off as a circle-the-wagons {censored} session stemming from frustration to control their work environment. It sounds like we expect kids to sit in class motionless for 6 hours, do their worksheets, and not give us any problems, because after all we are just poor teachers!!![/glow] I understand the classroom / learning environment is largely out of the control of the individual teacher because of mandated KPI factors. I believe that is probably part of the problem and the source of fatigue/frustration for teachers It is far too easy to just say "ah, the kids these days are just f-ed up!" and write them off, as a blanket excuse not to effort into being an educator. I'm sure there are extreme cases that can be provided to support any argument. I am certain that there are some kids who, as a product of parenting, can be a detriment to the classroom or have anti-social skills - I am not doubting that, I am just not willing to accept that as a carte blanche excuse to {censored} a generation or throw our collective hands in the air. I recognize that we are where we are because throughout the years, with whatever good intentions, have painted ourselves into an education corner. To come up with a better mousetrap, we have become trapped in a CYA environment that doesn't benefit anyone (teachers, students, administrators, parents,etc) - where no one wins. Controlling the work environment isn't the issue at hand here, nor was teacher salary discussed (or complained about) before you brought it up. What was initially being discussed wasn't "how bad we teachers feel we have it" but how the current education system (the last 10 years or so) has had a somewhat detrimental effect on some students. And it has; if the system itself is flawed, then some of the products of the system can't help but be flawed. And NO, I, personally, won't have the kids sitting, doing worksheets all day. But, there are going to be ASSESSMENTS in my classroom; ASSESSMENTS that maintain the balance of accountability within my classroom. I enjoy planning and doing engaging, hands-on activities in the classroom, but I expect students to do some grunt work. They need to show me, not only that they are learning the material, but that they can put in some effort and show me some quality work. They learn the material or the skill through the hand-on activity and they apply it on an assessment; that's the way it goes. And no one is saying "f- the kids", it's quite the opposite. If a student refuses to put any effort towards a class, I am doing him a whole lot more good by saying; "you have failed, you now have a chance to retake the class and pass, but as of right now, you have failed." He is going to learn a whole lot more from that situation than me saying "okay, make up all the work you've missed for some credit and we'll let you take as long as you want on tests."
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Post by brophy on Feb 23, 2009 13:12:03 GMT -6
I think we need to refocus this conversation back towards the original intent: the sense of student- athlete entitlement (yes this is a coaching forum). good point - and I apologize if I contributed to a threadjack My biggest concern as a coach, as it pertains to player entitlement, has more to do with the thought that a player believes that he should be a starter because: they come to every practice, every summer and weight session; they are 5 foot nothing, a hundred and nothing, runs a 4.5, benches the moon, this is tough - I think if you have a kid do all of that, you do 'owe' him to give him some PT, but what do we do (more to the point) about kids who over-estimate their abilities? The only answer I can come up with is go through and be clear about expectations and grading of the position performances, so it is clear that "we are looking for this" and you either did it or didn't (more or less than the other guys). Therefore, it is a helluva lot easier to quantify who is starting and why. How do we reward kids who put in the effort, even if they aren't good, outside of playing tiem? ....attitude issue of questioning calls openly, believing that he is a BCS quality scholarship player, ....the kids that will verbally berate a coach .... the lack of discipline needed to prepare each week is based upon how much you will use them in the game .... on the players that can’t watch a game film without becoming a major distraction .....players that quit during a hard practice ......ejection from the game due to their mouthiness Uh.....are these not elements that can 100% be controlled by the coach(es) in practice? honestly, these are things (slappys) that can be completely eliminated in the program and aren't things that are fostered or allowed to continue, right? Maybe, the 'entitlement of athletes' would be those that believing their 'talent' or 'size' is enough to play and that showing up when school starts is all that is required (and expect to start). Then of course, if kids DO do this, AND you have parents who weren't telling them to get their butts to the coaches BEFORE the season started...who think this is perfectly fine (probably because they've done it before in middle school or youth ball) and don't see the problem (nor the BIG PICTURE of what playing on a team is all about). Controlling the work environment isn't the issue at hand here, nor was teacher salary discussed (or complained about) before you brought it up. I never brought up teacher pay in this thread.
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Post by airraider on Feb 23, 2009 13:34:47 GMT -6
Irish: nice essay. i like how you rationally present both sides of the story. Yes, it's difficult to make change. Two points i would like to make: #1 You can't make change unless you participate. There is a saying" think outside the box" which I hate. I am trying to do what I can w/in the box we are given. Is it frustrating, yes Will it change no. The changes will be small and maybe not measurable. #2 You never know the effect that you have on somebody or when it happens. Last year, I ran into I man (former player) I didn't recognize, he was now32 years old and he thanked me for things that happened in 1992. Your point about teacher professionalism: This is a sore subject for me because you often hear teachers whine about not being treated as professionals, yet they go to school in T-shirts and jeans. The run out the building at the last bell, don't want to recieve anymore training Raider: Call me an idealist, What is the purpose of school? Is it to prepare our workforce, instill American ideals, prepare students to raise families, prepare students for future education? Yes to the above. we are serving a mass market, it's difficult to be all things to all people.. we do the best we can to our abilty. I truly believe it That might have been the intial purpose.. but what has it become? Today it is all about passing a test that was created to guage progress. More is being focused on the outcome than the process.
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 165
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Post by tedseay on Feb 23, 2009 13:38:45 GMT -6
The one thing I detest (and my sarcastic comment was about) was the never-ceasing serve-the-teacher mentality we have in this country, and I didn't think I could read yet ANOTHER finger-pointing (unproductive) bitch-session about how bad 'we' have it in the classroom. Leading isn't easy, I don't know why we expect teaching to be. What the hell are you, Brophy, some kind of Hymie Escalator fan or something? www.reason.com/news/show/28479.html
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Post by jpdaley25 on Feb 23, 2009 14:06:04 GMT -6
Then what is a solution? Money is not the answer....Every year we spend more and more on it, on it. Yes we make cuts, but from previous spending highs. I think we have to be the solution - one kid at a time. You know, my parents grew up in the great depression, and I can imagine them having a very similar discussion.
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Post by saintrad on Feb 23, 2009 16:08:26 GMT -6
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Post by red2slam on Feb 23, 2009 18:46:47 GMT -6
JP, My whole point is that their is a core problem and we are now starting to reap what we have sown. The system is broke, No argument from me. But how you fix it where I seem to run into resistance.MY opinion and belief is that this WILL NOT get fixed until you fix the problems in the family.
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Post by eickst on Feb 23, 2009 18:58:10 GMT -6
The problem is that no one can agree on how to fix it, or how to maintain it. That's why the government should stay out of it in the first place.
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Post by tog on Feb 23, 2009 19:04:42 GMT -6
to quote buford t justice
what we have here is outright communism
that pretty much sums up my whole take on this subject
why are kids the way they are?
our politics and nanny state
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 23, 2009 19:04:33 GMT -6
JP, My whole point is that their is a core problem and we are now starting to reap what we have sown. The system is broke, No argument from me. But how you fix it where I seem to run into resistance.MY opinion and belief is that this WILL NOT get fixed until you fix the problems in the family. The problem is, you don't win elections saying that....You don't win elections telling voters that they are the F' ups...
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Post by jgordon1 on Feb 23, 2009 19:53:44 GMT -6
Or as Paul Newman said in Cool hand Luke... "What we have here is a failure to communicate
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