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Post by phantom on Feb 16, 2009 10:35:31 GMT -6
You have a couple of dynamics at work here. 1. Unquestionable athletic skills as a 'playmaker' - problem is, he's now out of the game 2+ years, in a unspectacular 'training environment', and pushing the wrong side of 30. Even Deion Sanders had met the kryptonite of AGE. EVERY year, a new improved playmaker prototype is established - bigger, faster, stronger (meaning, wait your turn in the draft, you'll find one). 2. Questionable throwing mechanics - inconsistent delivery and, what we've seen up to this point, a lack of desire to improve in that department (see Vince Young). Mr. Vick severely benefited from a dominating Alex Gibbs run game and was a killer on boot-action. If you watched enough Falcon games, you might be able to attest to the hot-and-cold streaks the quarterback postion experienced for no apparent reason (inconsistent delivery). 3. Questionable decision making skills - coupled with #2, this is a "coach-killer" combination for a quarterback. Mr.Vick isn't stupid in any regard, but reliance on physical tools over mechanics and settling for 3rd & 2 rather than a TD (or INT) has hindered his performance in being able to manage a (passing) game consistently. I wish nothing but the best for Mr.Vick, and I have no concept of what it takes to succeed at the NFL franchise level, but from where I sit, I don't see the upside of this investment, that will reshape your fan base, team chemistry, and coaching staff With regards to Mr Vick as an "undesirable" returning to the league, what is to be made of Adam Jones? Vick only got arrested once.
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Post by brophy on Feb 16, 2009 10:45:59 GMT -6
I think maybe the point being - regardless of how much athletes can captivate our emotions with a spectacular play, endearing us to them and maybe at times overestimating their worth, there is always the "next man up" (sort to speak) who can be plugged in to take their place.
I'm just essentially saying 'time moves on' - the window for an athlete to produce is finite and trying to hold on to past glories with the hope of continued production rarely comes through
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Post by coachdawhip on Feb 16, 2009 10:49:17 GMT -6
You have a couple of dynamics at work here. 1. Unquestionable athletic skills as a 'playmaker' - problem is, he's now out of the game 2+ years, in a unspectacular 'training environment', and pushing the wrong side of 30. Even Deion Sanders had met the kryptonite of AGE. EVERY year, a new improved playmaker prototype is established - bigger, faster, stronger (meaning, wait your turn in the draft, you'll find one). 2. Questionable throwing mechanics - inconsistent delivery and, what we've seen up to this point, a lack of desire to improve in that department (see Vince Young). Mr. Vick severely benefited from a dominating Alex Gibbs run game and was a killer on boot-action. If you watched enough Falcon games, you might be able to attest to the hot-and-cold streaks the quarterback postion experienced for no apparent reason (inconsistent delivery). 3. Questionable decision making skills - coupled with #2, this is a "coach-killer" combination for a quarterback. Mr.Vick isn't stupid in any regard, but reliance on physical tools over mechanics and settling for 3rd & 2 rather than a TD (or INT) has hindered his performance in being able to manage a (passing) game consistently. I wish nothing but the best for Mr.Vick, and I have no concept of what it takes to succeed at the NFL franchise level, but from where I sit, I don't see the upside of this investment, that will reshape your fan base, team chemistry, and coaching staff With regards to Mr Vick as an "undesirable" returning to the league, what is to be made of Adam Jones? 1) As far as a fan base, if Vick came back to Atlanta, the Falcons would have a greater chance to sell-out the dome with him instead of Ryan. There was a huge racial divide in this city when Ryan was drafted. 2) Vick has been out of the game for some time, but he still has a fan appeal. 3) Pac-man Jones has made mistake after mistake, etc..... Vick has just made 1 huge mistake. 4) Brophy, he won as a QB. That's the only stat I care about. 5) I agree he needs a solid run game, great play-action. But Vick and Young don't compare as QB's. Vick wanted to be better Young to this point has shown no signs he does. 6) If you can sign him for less than 2 mil, with incentives then he is worth the chance to be invited to camp. 7) teams I can see looking at him... 1) Cowboys 2) Seahawks 3) Texans 4) Ravens 8) No one WILL TRADE FOR HIM!!! he will be signed to a low minimum contract and invited to camp.
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Post by phantom on Feb 16, 2009 10:56:29 GMT -6
I think maybe the point being - regardless of how much athletes can captivate our emotions with a spectacular play, endearing us to them and maybe at times overestimating their worth, there is always the "next man up" (sort to speak) who can be plugged in to take their place. I'm just essentially saying 'time moves on' - the window for an athlete to produce is finite and trying to hold on to past glories with the hope of continued production rarely comes through Except at QB. QB is one position in athletics where experience and decision-making are more important than raw talent. There have been numerous situations where "failed" talents have evolved into perfectly servicable QBs as they learn the game. Kerry Collins can't depend on his arm anymore so he turns to brains and beats out Vince Young. I'm saying that its possible that Vick can come out and become a better decision-maker. Two years away from the game is two years that he hasn't been taking hits.
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Post by brophy on Feb 16, 2009 10:57:21 GMT -6
4) Brophy, he won as a QB. That's the only stat I care about. as an aside, isn't this counter-intuitive from a coaching standpoint? That rings like a hollow argument to me. According to this logic, " Rex Grossman is a Super Bowl quarterback", too, and I know better. At what point does your team begin to "win" with Vick? Because he is on the roster? Because he is a starter? Because receivers catch a pass and run with it? Because from a coaching standpoint, I'm at a loss to find all the QUANTIFIABLES that make him a great pickup (other than him going out there to 'grip-it-and-rip-it') I'm saying that its possible that Vick can come out and become a better decision-maker. Two years away from the game is two years that he hasn't been taking hits. I certainly don't question this - I'm sure Mr Vick can be successful if he wants to. I'm merely pointing out the lopsided equation of bringing him in.
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Post by dal9000 on Feb 16, 2009 10:58:39 GMT -6
4) Brophy, he won as a QB. That's the only stat I care about. OK, but that's a pretty terrible stat to hang your hat on. Wins are so ridiculously far outside a quarterback's control. Off the top of my head, a QB has no effect on: - His team's defense - The success of its run game - The success of his pass blocking, and - Special teams All of which have a pretty big impact on wins, I would think. What happened to only worrying about the things you can control?
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Post by touchdownmaker on Feb 16, 2009 11:00:59 GMT -6
Man, after reading this I completely understand why some of you dudes irritate the heck out of me. many of us have completely different values and our views of what is acceptable behavior and what is not can be completely different. I think its amazing that some of us are permitted to work with kids. wow. maybe we should stick to football. Ummm. He broke the law and has paid his debt to society. Let he who has no sin throw the first stone. I'm passing one to you. He should be forgiven, however we should not forget. That is the lesson I teach my kids. Vicks a felon, Im not, Ill throw stones at him.
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Post by phantom on Feb 16, 2009 11:04:04 GMT -6
4) Brophy, he won as a QB. That's the only stat I care about. as an aside, isn't this counter-intuitive from a coaching standpoint? That rings like a hollow argument to me. According to this logic, " Rex Grossman is a Super Bowl quarterback", too, and I know better. At what point does your team begin to "win" with Vick? Because he is on the roster? Because he is a starter? Because receivers catch a pass and run with it? Because from a coaching standpoint, I'm at a loss to find all the QUANTIFIABLES that make him a great pickup (other than him going out there to 'grip-it-and-rip-it') I'm saying that its possible that Vick can come out and become a better decision-maker. Two years away from the game is two years that he hasn't been taking hits. I certainly don't question this - I'm sure Mr Vick can be successful if he wants to. I'm merely pointing out the lopsided equation of bringing him in. For the right money. In a salary-cap league it's always for the right money.
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Post by coachdawhip on Feb 16, 2009 11:21:54 GMT -6
Ummm. He broke the law and has paid his debt to society. Let he who has no sin throw the first stone. I'm passing one to you. He should be forgiven, however we should not forget. That is the lesson I teach my kids. Vicks a felon, Im not, Ill throw stones at him. And it gets you in the gates no faster than him...
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Post by brophy on Feb 16, 2009 11:32:25 GMT -6
Considering the Falcons haven't cut Mr Vick, I'd assume they are on the (cap) hook if they were to cut him. If you were committed to the run game, I'd be all about bringing him in as a 2nd or 3rd QB, but you'd certainly have to do some major reconstruction on that contract before you'd even consider it. With the success of Matt Ryan, how can you bring this guy back? It isn't like you can trade someone you knowingly have no value for. How would he fare in Jacksonville?
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Post by phantom on Feb 16, 2009 11:35:09 GMT -6
Considering the Falcons haven't cut Mr Vick, I'd assume they are on the (cap) hook if they were to cut him. If you were committed to the run game, I'd be all about bringing him in as a 2nd or 3rd QB, but you'd certainly have to do some major reconstruction on that contract before you'd even consider it. With the success of Matt Ryan, how can you bring this guy back? It isn't like you can trade someone you knowingly have no value for. How would he fare in Jacksonville? No question. He's not coming back to Atlanta.
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Post by dubber on Feb 16, 2009 12:47:50 GMT -6
Ummm. He broke the law and has paid his debt to society. Let he who has no sin throw the first stone. I'm passing one to you. He should be forgiven, however we should not forget. That is the lesson I teach my kids. Vicks a felon, Im not, Ill throw stones at him. From a legal standpoint, the man committed a crime. He did prison time pursuant to the commission of that crime. Now he wants to get out of jail and start working again. I feel that is something I would want ALL parolees to do. Is he a million dollar gamble? No. Is he a couple hundred thousand dollar gamble? Sure. Does he carry a ton of baggage, will he be booed in pre-season, etc.? Definitely. Guess what, as Shakespeare noted, mobs are fickled. If he leads the Chicago Bears to the Super Bowl, almost everyone will forgive him....or at least forget his mistake. That is, except for touchdownmaker, and this lady:
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Post by touchdownmaker on Feb 16, 2009 12:49:34 GMT -6
Vicks a felon, Im not, Ill throw stones at him. And it gets you in the gates no faster than him... this is not about me, its about a felon, a man who has no morals, no integrity, no character, no values getting hired into the nfl. thats what this is about. If i did what vick did do you think i could get a job as a teacher and coach ever again? I dont think so. doesnt that piss you off in the least??? this guy will be a role model to children if he puts on an nfl jersey.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Feb 16, 2009 12:52:16 GMT -6
Vicks a felon, Im not, Ill throw stones at him. From a legal standpoint, the man committed a crime. He did prison time pursuant to the commission of that crime. Now he wants to get out of jail and start working again. I feel that is something I would want ALL parolees to do. Is he a million dollar gamble? No. Is he a couple hundred thousand dollar gamble? Sure. Does he carry a ton of baggage, will he be booed in pre-season, etc.? Definitely. Guess what, as Shakespeare noted, mobs are fickled. If he leads the Chicago Bears to the Super Bowl, almost everyone will forgive him....or at least forget his mistake. That is, except for touchdownmaker, and this lady: you are correct sir, I find him unforgivable. Im not perfect and one thing that is an imperfection with me, I cannot forgive the vile acts of this person. Fortunately for him, I am not the one who has to forgive him. Your characters are cute though.
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Post by dubber on Feb 16, 2009 13:12:01 GMT -6
And it gets you in the gates no faster than him... this is not about me, its about a felon, a man who has no morals, no integrity, no character, no values getting hired into the nfl. thats what this is about. If i did what vick did do you think i could get a job as a teacher and coach ever again? I dont think so. doesnt that {censored} you off in the least??? this guy will be a role model to children if he puts on an nfl jersey. So, a felon has no morality? You are closer to the point about him wearing an NFL jersey and being a role model for kids etc..........that argument I could buy. However, the NFL was not founded on altruism. It is founded on capitalism and winning.......it's a formula. If Mike Vick's reinstatement puts the NFL in the red, they won't do it. However, I am willing to bet that even PETA members won't cancel their Sunday ticket just because Vick is in the league.......hate-able people make just as much money (if not more) than love-able ones. All that being said, their is a quid pro quo relationship going on here that is the underlying thread of why capitalism works: they want/need each other. The NFL, or rather some NFL team, wants Vick, because he could increase their ticket sells, plus have an ancillary effect of drawing attention to the team. I doubt Vick's 3 years at Virginia Tech has prepared him for any occupation were he could start out at the salary level he'll get at the league minimum. So, they use each other, and our kids see a man do something wrong and whether he is truly sorry or not, becomes rich again. Good thing TV doesn't (well, shouldn't) raise our kids..........
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Post by craines10 on Feb 16, 2009 13:12:20 GMT -6
Matt Jones was sitting in the front seat chopping up cocaine like it was confetti? How much time did he serve? He was a direct culprit!Give Vick another shot.
Mike Vick is a quarterback who bought another element to the game. He started messing up when he tried to proove he was a pocket passer. I always said he was the equivelant of a Vince Carter type, when the dunk/4.2 forty is gone then the jump shot/pass accuracy will come. Superior athletes adapt, always have always will.
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Post by mariner42 on Feb 16, 2009 13:20:36 GMT -6
Darkhorse candidate: NE Patriots...
Belicheck, convinced with the superiority of himself, pulls the trigger, acquires him. How you might ask? He pulls a five way trade between the Pats, Dirty Birds, Oklahoma Thunder, Kansas City Royals, and Canadiens. The way the trade works out is like this: --Patriots send Logan Mankins and a third rounder to the Canadiens for Carey Price (G). Canadiens in turn deal Price to the Royals, who trade Coco Crisp(OF) to the Falcons and Ryan Shealy (IF) to the Thunder, who trade Kevin Durant(F) to the Falcons as a deep threat for Matty Ice. --The Falcons then deal Coco Crisp to the Canadiens in exchange for Mankins and some maple syrup, leaving arguably the palest team in the NHL with a brother named Coco Crisp. --Atlanta sends Mankins back to NE because he scares children, packaging Vick into it just to get Mankins and Vick out of there. --Belicheck calls up Tom Dimitroff and persuades him to cut Durant because it's not the Falcons turn to win the SB, according to his plans. --Belicheck convinces Durant to sign on for the league minimum, for a chance to "Play for a title". --Belicheck trades Matt Cassell to the Raiders for a 1st, 3rd, and Darren McFadden, as well as the legal rights to the phrase "Commitment to Excellence". Unbeknownst to most, he has the phrase inscribed on the bottoms of all toilets in the Patriots organization, citing the fact that "Excellence isn't good enough". --Using the 1st, Belicheck drafts Percey Harvin, who will play nickel back, slot, water boy, and play jazz flute before and after team meetings. --With his 3rd rounder, Belicheck drafts David Beckham(K/FS), calling him a "cagey veteran". Begins installing the new "bicycle kick" method of knocking down passes, which has the side effect of potentially knocking out recievers without drawing penalties and/or fines.
The Result: Belicheck installs 2 separate offenses: the normal "Brady" package with Moss, Wes Welkah, and co, and the "Sh!ts and giggles" package of Vick at QB, Durant out wide opposite Moss, with McFadden at RB running a combo of "Wildcat" and zone-read. Patriots laugh their way to the Super Bowl, where Samuel L Jackson(QB/Bad @ss MOFO(It's been a strange off-season)) and Adrian "Purple Jesus" Peterson leads the Minnesota Vikings in an upset victory.
The Aftermath: Belicheck trades away everyone on his team over the age of thirty one, sacrifices Becks at the southern end zone of Foxboro in an attempt to "please Cthulhu, whose time nears", and then declares the Patriots secession from the "tyranny of hostile agencies". Belicheck and the Patriots are last seen making their way into the Appalachians, warning that they shall return "when the time is nigh"...
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Post by touchdownmaker on Feb 16, 2009 13:26:13 GMT -6
"So, a felon has no morality?"
convince me. I am listening.
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Post by phantom on Feb 16, 2009 13:45:00 GMT -6
"So, a felon has no morality?" convince me. I am listening. He got prison time, he didn't get death. He does have the right to live his life and make a living after he does his time.
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Post by CoachA21 on Feb 16, 2009 13:53:11 GMT -6
I certinaly think he is forgivable, but as a role model, I don't think he will be percieved as one anymore. He isn't exactly a good QB but some team will pick him up. Everyone makes some kind of stupid mistakes in their lifes and once you do and you get caught (let it be from family or authority) you began to realize those mistakes. Its called experience and you learn from it.
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stylee
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Post by stylee on Feb 16, 2009 14:45:57 GMT -6
Darkhorse candidate: NE Patriots... Belicheck, convinced with the superiority of himself, pulls the trigger, acquires him. How you might ask? He pulls a five way trade between the Pats, Dirty Birds, Oklahoma Thunder, Kansas City Royals, and Canadiens. The way the trade works out is like this: --Patriots send Logan Mankins and a third rounder to the Canadiens for Carey Price (G). Canadiens in turn deal Price to the Royals, who trade Coco Crisp(OF) to the Falcons and Ryan Shealy (IF) to the Thunder, who trade Kevin Durant(F) to the Falcons as a deep threat for Matty Ice. --The Falcons then deal Coco Crisp to the Canadiens in exchange for Mankins and some maple syrup, leaving arguably the palest team in the NHL with a brother named Coco Crisp. --Atlanta sends Mankins back to NE because he scares children, packaging Vick into it just to get Mankins and Vick out of there. --Belicheck calls up Tom Dimitroff and persuades him to cut Durant because it's not the Falcons turn to win the SB, according to his plans. --Belicheck convinces Durant to sign on for the league minimum, for a chance to "Play for a title". --Belicheck trades Matt Cassell to the Raiders for a 1st, 3rd, and Darren McFadden, as well as the legal rights to the phrase "Commitment to Excellence". Unbeknownst to most, he has the phrase inscribed on the bottoms of all toilets in the Patriots organization, citing the fact that "Excellence isn't good enough". --Using the 1st, Belicheck drafts Percey Harvin, who will play nickel back, slot, water boy, and play jazz flute before and after team meetings. --With his 3rd rounder, Belicheck drafts David Beckham(K/FS), calling him a "cagey veteran". Begins installing the new "bicycle kick" method of knocking down passes, which has the side effect of potentially knocking out recievers without drawing penalties and/or fines. The Result: Belicheck installs 2 separate offenses: the normal "Brady" package with Moss, Wes Welkah, and co, and the "Sh!ts and giggles" package of Vick at QB, Durant out wide opposite Moss, with McFadden at RB running a combo of "Wildcat" and zone-read. Patriots laugh their way to the Super Bowl, where Samuel L Jackson(QB/Bad @ss MOFO(It's been a strange off-season)) and Adrian "Purple Jesus" Peterson leads the Minnesota Vikings in an upset victory. The Aftermath: Belicheck trades away everyone on his team over the age of thirty one, sacrifices Becks at the southern end zone of Foxboro in an attempt to "please Cthulhu, whose time nears", and then declares the Patriots secession from the "tyranny of hostile agencies". Belicheck and the Patriots are last seen making their way into the Appalachians, warning that they shall return "when the time is nigh"... The most sensible post yet!
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Post by touchdownmaker on Feb 16, 2009 16:08:50 GMT -6
"So, a felon has no morality?" convince me. I am listening. He got prison time, he didn't get death. He does have the right to live his life and make a living after he does his time. I wonder if the dogs had a right to live their lives. I wonder if the people somewhere out there who were somehow effected by the crime behind the crimes have the right to live their lives too. Somewhere out there someone got mugged, or killed for the money that someone else is betting with or buying drugs with etc etc. I would never dispute anyones "rights" provided they observe the law. Law breakers in my narrow mind have no rights. particularly when it comes to taking the lives of others, dogs or othewise. The NFL would impress me a whole bunch if they simply said what any respectable business would say "we dont hire felons" and move on. Theres other work for guys like this. My opinion, strong and maybe wrong but its my opinion.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2009 16:32:12 GMT -6
You have a couple of dynamics at work here. 1. Unquestionable athletic skills as a 'playmaker' - problem is, he's now out of the game 2+ years, in a unspectacular 'training environment', and pushing the wrong side of 30. Even Deion Sanders had met the kryptonite of AGE. EVERY year, a new improved playmaker prototype is established - bigger, faster, stronger (meaning, wait your turn in the draft, you'll find one). 2. Questionable throwing mechanics - inconsistent delivery and, what we've seen up to this point, a lack of desire to improve in that department (see Vince Young). Mr. Vick severely benefited from a dominating Alex Gibbs run game and was a killer on boot-action. If you watched enough Falcon games, you might be able to attest to the hot-and-cold streaks the quarterback postion experienced for no apparent reason (inconsistent delivery). 3. Questionable decision making skills - coupled with #2, this is a "coach-killer" combination for a quarterback. Mr.Vick isn't stupid in any regard, but reliance on physical tools over mechanics and settling for 3rd & 2 rather than a TD (or INT) has hindered his performance in being able to manage a (passing) game consistently. I wish nothing but the best for Mr.Vick, and I have no concept of what it takes to succeed at the NFL franchise level, but from where I sit, I don't see the upside of this investment, that will reshape your fan base, team chemistry, and coaching staff With regards to Mr Vick as an "undesirable" returning to the league, what is to be made of Adam Jones? Vick only got arrested once. So far, give it time
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Post by khalfie on Feb 16, 2009 16:55:22 GMT -6
We become so extremist, with people we don't like. Its either this way or that... as if there's no middle ground.
1. There is middle ground. Falcons have him under contract, QB's go down every week, he'd be an excellent 2nd team QB.
2. He has a high price tag. Money is not guaranteed in the league, he'll be cut, an excellent opportunity for other teams to pick up a more than serviceable back up qb.
3. He's a bad guy, and hence shouldn't be able to be an athlete anymore... such nievety...32 teams, 94 QB's... he'll be one of them... good or bad, he'll get a look.
4. The man is talented. Won't be shocked when he makes good on his second chance...
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Post by phantom on Feb 16, 2009 17:52:03 GMT -6
He got prison time, he didn't get death. He does have the right to live his life and make a living after he does his time. I wonder if the dogs had a right to live their lives. I wonder if the people somewhere out there who were somehow effected by the crime behind the crimes have the right to live their lives too. Somewhere out there someone got mugged, or killed for the money that someone else is betting with or buying drugs with etc etc. I would never dispute anyones "rights" provided they observe the law. Law breakers in my narrow mind have no rights. particularly when it comes to taking the lives of others, dogs or othewise. The NFL would impress me a whole bunch if they simply said what any respectable business would say "we dont hire felons" and move on. Theres other work for guys like this. My opinion, strong and maybe wrong but its my opinion. I love dogs. I can never defend what Vick did. Other than that, what are you talking about?
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Post by mahonz on Feb 16, 2009 18:03:22 GMT -6
Isnt this the same Michael Vick who tried to sneak his bong onto a commercial flight?
With all that money you would think he would pay someone to do that for him...at least.
Never been to prison but I would think after a couple of years...I'd never be going back. He deserves a chance at a second chance.
Will he be on parole? That could complicate things with all that travel I would assume.
Coach Mike
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2009 18:30:55 GMT -6
I'm sure travel agreements were figured into his plea negoatiations, I've seen that in court before, with traveling sales jobs.
I'm no animal lover, my favorite animal is a good steak from time to time, however
The problem I have with it has nothing to do with dogs, or animal cruelty. The problem is that with the hundreds of millions of dollars this guy made, he still found it feasable to take part in an illicit criminal enterprise. He was making millions and millions in the NFL but still needed that illegal 10-20 grand ?
He surely didn't need the money, I refuse to beleive he didn't know it was illegal, he had to know...hmmm this could probably ruin my career if I ever get caught, so what's his excuse...oops I made a mistake ?
I don't think so.
He liked the lifestyle, like so many, he couldn't leave it behind, supposedly this was well known from the time he was at Va Tech too.
As for my experience, I havent dealt with Dogfighting rings, (yet) but I can tell you fighting rings, and drug activity often go hand and hand.
I'm not a hunter, I beleive that's why supermarkets were invented, so we wouldn't have to hunt anymore, but I've never heard of any hunter killing a deer, by locking it in a cage and kicking it into a pool.
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Post by spreadattack on Feb 16, 2009 18:50:53 GMT -6
I agree that the dog fighting stuff is pretty cruel, but to the point where Vick has no rights (including no right to be employed by an employer (an NFL team) that wanted his services)? I assume that after being denied that "right," (what about the NFL team's rights?) that if he broke the law again it'd be horrible.
Also, dog fighting is horrible, but are you a card carrying PETA person? (I, by the way, am not, and eat plenty of chicken and steak) If you think dog fighters have no morality though, then what about those who eat chicken? Check this out:
"Law breakers have no rights"? That's pretty extreme. Which laws? Just dog fighting laws? I'm curious.
Anyway, not really worth getting too far into this.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2009 19:42:43 GMT -6
Yeah they do manhandle those little suckers...thanks now I'm craving an omelet
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Post by spreadattack on Feb 16, 2009 19:44:50 GMT -6
Ha there's another one I was looking for but couldn't find. We can all use our imagination though on all those slaughterhouses.
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