billyn
Sophomore Member
Posts: 231
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Post by billyn on Feb 12, 2009 21:13:25 GMT -6
One question I have is where are all you guys from. Don't you have an athletics period in your school day where you lift? We don't have an issue with it, because our kids lift during 7th period.
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Post by ajreaper on Feb 12, 2009 21:48:10 GMT -6
Always keep in mind the clientel we deal with- if you make it "voluntary" to many that means it's really not that important, if you believe it's critical make it clear to them where you stand and what your expectations are.
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Post by phantom on Feb 12, 2009 22:29:01 GMT -6
One question I have is where are all you guys from. Don't you have an athletics period in your school day where you lift? We don't have an issue with it, because our kids lift during 7th period. No. No athletics period.
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 13, 2009 6:48:03 GMT -6
I agree with those who say "HEY, they GOTTA be there!!!"
But....just to play devils advocate: What if they are weight room Beasts...the most highly conditioned athletes in your program, and have training with their outside trainer since before H.S. ? What if outside trainer is CSCS, specializes in sports performance, and has a reputation as being one of the best in the business with a track record of major breakthrough after major breakthrough?
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Post by indian1 on Feb 13, 2009 7:09:00 GMT -6
totally agree with phantom on this one.
However, if you wanted to make some sort of compromize, test them. Make them come in for testing once a month and see if they are getting stronger. I think this would expose them. Usually guys who say they are doing this don't really workout like they say they are going to.
Then when they come in for testing and aren't stronger cut them. Or the other scenario is they won't show up for testing : cut them.
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Feb 13, 2009 7:33:18 GMT -6
In my humble and honest opinion, I will trade the 10 more pounds they lift, for them being able to play together better and play as a team. Heck, I'd trade 50 pounds if they'd just play better together and as a unit. Don't cut them. You can't fault them for trying to make themselves better. I like the 'test them with the team' idea. I'd also sit face-to-face with them and convey these thoughts from your quote to them. Talk to them about leadership and express how a good leader does the work with his teammates. If you tell them that you think it's great that they are working hard and have the initiative to do this on their own, but that you're disappointed in the lack of leadership they are displaying- I guarantee that you put the ball in their court. Now they have to decide "I'm a leader and I will sacrifice to be with my teammates" or "Screw those guys I'll do for myself"- in which case the latter reaction would merit lack of playing time/no equipment, etc... You should really put them in a position to make the right choice- don't chase them off, MAKE LEADERS OUT OF THEM!
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Post by gpoulin76 on Feb 13, 2009 8:18:21 GMT -6
I agree with those who say "HEY, they GOTTA be there!!!" But....just to play devils advocate: What if they are weight room Beasts...the most highly conditioned athletes in your program, and have training with their outside trainer since before H.S. ? What if outside trainer is CSCS, specializes in sports performance, and has a reputation as being one of the best in the business with a track record of major breakthrough after major breakthrough? This is my point exactly.
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Post by gpoulin76 on Feb 13, 2009 8:19:09 GMT -6
In my humble and honest opinion, I will trade the 10 more pounds they lift, for them being able to play together better and play as a team. Heck, I'd trade 50 pounds if they'd just play better together and as a unit. Don't cut them. You can't fault them for trying to make themselves better. I like the 'test them with the team' idea. I'd also sit face-to-face with them and convey these thoughts from your quote to them. Talk to them about leadership and express how a good leader does the work with his teammates. If you tell them that you think it's great that they are working hard and have the initiative to do this on their own, but that you're disappointed in the lack of leadership they are displaying- I guarantee that you put the ball in their court. Now they have to decide "I'm a leader and I will sacrifice to be with my teammates" or "Screw those guys I'll do for myself"- in which case the latter reaction would merit lack of playing time/no equipment, etc... You should really put them in a position to make the right choice- don't chase them off, MAKE LEADERS OUT OF THEM! YES!!
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Post by wingtol on Feb 13, 2009 9:28:03 GMT -6
Just remember you have to pick your battles and sometimes things aren't worth causing a blow out over esp if you are trying to turn a program around. You roll with the kids who buy in and that's that. Don't go crazy if a few kids aren't lifting with the team. If they are getting stronger and show up for team drills/7-7/work outs and buy in to what you are doing then go with it. Just cause they aren't in the weight room doesn't mean they aren't committed and not working hard. People can go in to all the teambuilding and all that but remember these kids goto school with their teammates all day and hang out with them outside of school as well. Now if it starts carrying over to practices and in season stuff then broom 'em.
Best football coach I have ever been around gave a HC I worked for this advice when he was going nuts over a kid not being committed or talking about quiting or something like that "Just remember Jesus only got 11 out of 12. You can't get them all all the time."
Your rebuilding a program these kinds of things will happen untill things start to turn around, once the kids start to see it happening on the field they will start to buy into everything you do. I was in the same situation when I started at my current school. Coming in to a program that was 0-20 something. Once the success on the filed starts and the kids buy into you and your system they won't want to go somewhere else. Don't expect them to blindly follow and do everything your way untill they start to see what your doing is bringing success.
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Post by brophy on Feb 13, 2009 9:40:22 GMT -6
I really believe there is no one solution to this issue, mainly because of THIS reason below; When it comes to the weight room you will have some players that are simply too much of a man-child to train with the rest of the team. I was squatting 6 and the rest of the team was in the 3s if they were lucky. I sought out people who could test me. I got into power lifting. It wasn't that I wasn't a teammate it was simply that my teammates didn't get the best out of me. Which one is going to benefit the program? If the kid just prefers to do it on his own, out of convenience - I don't think that is legitimate enough excuse. If the kid is getting legitimate training - I find it hard to fault them for seeking out a greater challenge, and lets face it, BFS out-of-the-box, largely won't satisfy a competitive athlete's body. Nothing wrong with BFS, but we ran into this problem as well. I don't think there is a better way to build a team than the weight room / off-season, but in a case like this, I'd make an exception. If the kids are slappys and likely aren't getting any kind of growth training elsewhere, then I would make a stink about it.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Feb 13, 2009 9:50:09 GMT -6
What seems to be the problem:
...I left it at that
What could be a solution- tell them this:
but I'm very close to just cutting them loose. We were 0-10 last year for one reason and one reason only, we played as individuals! It was my first season as hc and we cut some dead weight that helped, but it was too late, the damage had been done. Now after a disappointing season we've had fair to good numbers in the weight program and now these guys jump ship. What would you do? I'm very seriously thinking about cutting them as an example to the rest of them. I'm not going to put up with what killed as last season...individuality. Basically put, I feel no one man is greater than the whole, and if he feels that way, then he does not need to be a part of what he feels he's better than.
For me, it seems that these kids probably do want to get better, they are just misguided. I've had that too... and they are used to my smarta$$ comments like "Gee, I didn't know Gold's Gym has a football team..."
When I tool over a 2-28 (over 3 years) program, this was the same attitude. We did this: "Required" (as per state mandate we couldn't "require"... more on that later) 80% attendance and 100% effort at training sessions. We would lift, run, do plyos, agility work... basically football stuff. Some things were tough, some were fun.
If they made 80%, they could avoid a 2 week camp at the beginning of the year in weight room (circut stuff) and could opt out of the 12 minute run (which is designed so NO ONE will make it in the first 5-6 days- we had a ridiculous number of laps required and then reduced by 1/2 for each consecutive day. The first year ,we had 6 guys in the "camp". We never had any after that
Kids don't often know how to be good teammates- that is probably the most important aspect of our job-more than what lifting program or what offense or defense.
I have some seniors to be who I am ready to kick the heck out of here right now... but rather than just let my emotions take control I have (thus far) talked with them (individually and as a group) and invited all seniors to my house for a super bowl party. They are starting to "get it"- and while this group is a year long project- I would rather have them than not have them... but I will only have them around if they go by my rules. I need to teach them to do that though.
Best of luck
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Post by touchdownmaker on Feb 13, 2009 9:53:40 GMT -6
I am going to add another road block to this whole thing...
ever have a kid who did not want to lift with the team YET because he was embarassed by how weak he was? I have a couple of kids that like to lift with their dads and though I do not give points for it, i encourage it. first because I know their dads are into lifting and into football and into discipline and are generally supportive of our program but secondly because so many of our kids today just dont have that kind of relationship where they a)know their dad or b) want to spend time with him.
Like I said, no points but go do it! family first.
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Feb 13, 2009 10:43:57 GMT -6
Bottom line is that we want to build chemistry and unity through, as Brophy so eloquently put it [and I will be stealing this one] "sweat equity" in the offseason, but we also don't want to alienate the good kids who are overachievers.
And face it, we are all not experts in strength & conditioning- if their family can afford to send them to one of those speed training centers or wahtever- great! Hopefully they'll go and bring back somethings to share with their teammates. Maybe we need to check our ego and admit that there is better training available to them.
I really think you are going to have to make a judgement call based on your perception of the kids' intent- are they doing this to spite you, the new guy/HC, or are they legitmately doing this to make themselves better? Or are they doing it becasue the off-season program sucks- if so maybe you need to re-evaluate what you're doing? Think about it...
Let them know that they have obligations to fulfill to be a part of your program- if you feel it is absolutely punish them for not working out with you- do it with playing time next season. Focus 100% of your energy on the guys that are there working out. The message will be heard loud and clear.
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Post by gpoulin76 on Feb 13, 2009 11:09:07 GMT -6
Coaches, We are doing well with our offseason weight program up until last week. I have 2 junior-to-be's and 1 senior-to-be who are all 3 good players and potential leaders that have quit lifting with us and are lifting in town at a local gym with a trainer. 1 of the boys family owns the building in which the gym is located. When confronted about the situation they said that it was better than what we had going on at our weightroom as they got more one on one training. I left it at that, but I'm very close to just cutting them loose. We were 0-10 last year for one reason and one reason only, we played as individuals! It was my first season as hc and we cut some dead weight that helped, but it was too late, the damage had been done. Now after a disappointing season we've had fair to good numbers in the weight program and now these guys jump ship. What would you do? I'm very seriously thinking about cutting them as an example to the rest of them. I'm not going to put up with what killed as last season...individuality. Basically put, I feel no one man is greater than the whole, and if he feels that way, then he does not need to be a part of what he feels he's better than. I just wanted to get your opinions on the situation before I did something rash. Coach: What do the kids that are regulars think about the situation?
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Post by touchdownmaker on Feb 13, 2009 11:12:34 GMT -6
The sweat equity thing is important. our kids that do not invest their sweat during NOV-JULY will do it in the hot august sun. Either way, sweat equity. Putting the jersey on has to mean something more than just putting the jersey on.
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Post by phantom on Feb 13, 2009 13:14:40 GMT -6
I agree with those who say "HEY, they GOTTA be there!!!" But....just to play devils advocate: What if they are weight room Beasts...the most highly conditioned athletes in your program, and have training with their outside trainer since before H.S. ? What if outside trainer is CSCS, specializes in sports performance, and has a reputation as being one of the best in the business with a track record of major breakthrough after major breakthrough? If he's that good we could sure use his leadership to help out the other kids.
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Post by phantom on Feb 13, 2009 13:40:24 GMT -6
I wonder why everytime the BFS program comes up the first thing said about it is negative. It's not like it's against the law to adjust the program to fit your own philosophies, equipment, needs, etc. Is it? A weight program can be BFS based without every kid having to get a BFS tatoo on their forehead. but hbl2 - like Brophy said - are they meeting your attendance requirement? If they are, then I don't see how you can kick them out. If they are not, then it doesn't matter if they are lifting at the Y or laying on the couch watching Oprah, absent is absent isn't it? We don't have any kids who lift somewhere else...anymore. We had one last year, but we told him he had to make at least 2/3 of the sessions...so he lifted with us on Monday and Thursday. But I also hear you on them just doing what they want. That is part of the problem and it sounds as if you are trying to turn around a program...and if that is the case, then I would just concentrate on the kids you have in the WR. Make your announcements in the WR and I wouldn't go out of my way to make any phone calls to the 3 kids who aren't there. You announced it to the team, if they want to be members of that team then they need to be where the team is. Period. I know, from your perspective it seems like the tail is trying to wag the dog or like they are being outright defiant. But remember, there is a reason the program was down, no one ever said turning it would be easy. I wouldn't cut them, but I also wouldn't trust them, and since I don't trust them, I wouldn't play them. There's been something that's been bothering me but I couldn't put my finger on it until now- if these guys don't buy into our conditioning program what else aren't they buying into? Do they have a particular offense or defense that they'd rather run?
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Post by touchdownmaker on Feb 13, 2009 13:44:24 GMT -6
Exactly, they arent YOUR GUYS. I think kids fall into one of three categories:
your guys their guys (former staff) their own guys (loyal only to self and dear old dad)
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Feb 13, 2009 13:54:35 GMT -6
I wonder why everytime the BFS program comes up the first thing said about it is negative. It's not like it's against the law to adjust the program to fit your own philosophies, equipment, needs, etc. Is it? A weight program can be BFS based without every kid having to get a BFS tatoo on their forehead. but hbl2 - like Brophy said - are they meeting your attendance requirement? If they are, then I don't see how you can kick them out. If they are not, then it doesn't matter if they are lifting at the Y or laying on the couch watching Oprah, absent is absent isn't it? We don't have any kids who lift somewhere else...anymore. We had one last year, but we told him he had to make at least 2/3 of the sessions...so he lifted with us on Monday and Thursday. But I also hear you on them just doing what they want. That is part of the problem and it sounds as if you are trying to turn around a program...and if that is the case, then I would just concentrate on the kids you have in the WR. Make your announcements in the WR and I wouldn't go out of my way to make any phone calls to the 3 kids who aren't there. You announced it to the team, if they want to be members of that team then they need to be where the team is. Period. I know, from your perspective it seems like the tail is trying to wag the dog or like they are being outright defiant. But remember, there is a reason the program was down, no one ever said turning it would be easy. I wouldn't cut them, but I also wouldn't trust them, and since I don't trust them, I wouldn't play them. There's been something that's been bothering me but I couldn't put my finger on it until now- if these guys don't buy into our conditioning program what else aren't they buying into? Do they have a particular offense or defense that they'd rather run? Nice post man- I agree. Put the ball in their court with the opportunity to "right the wrong" (stop f*ing around and get with our program). If they decide not to then you know where they stand and you don't play them. If they come around- great!
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Post by joelee on Feb 13, 2009 14:23:08 GMT -6
Its the sweat that binds us together.
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Post by coachcb on Feb 13, 2009 17:26:50 GMT -6
Here's how I would deal with it; I would bring them in and talk to them about the importance of lifting with their teammates and developing trust within the team. I would make it clear that if they still planned on lifting on their own, they were still responsible for the completing the performance tests with the team. Explain to them that those performance scores are important in determining who will play and who will not play. I'd also explain to them that you are looking for proper form in those performance tests; pilates-knee-bend-squats and reverse-curl cleans don't cut it.
Let them go an workout down at the Y for until the next performance test; bring them in and test them. If you are running a good off-season program and their scores are meeting the team average or higher, send them off with your blessing. Bring them back in for every strength test and work from there. If they continue to score well, then I'd back off of it, for now.
If the scores are lower than the team average than you have some good leverage. Pull them back in and let them know that they're falling behind the team on the strength scores and that they may be falling behind the team in playing time as well. If they still choose to go lift at the local Gold's Gym, I wouldn't kick them off of the team, but the chances of them playing would be a lot lower.
In these situations, their performance scores are almost always lower than the rest of the team; A LOT LOWER. Most of them aren't following a football specific program; they're benching and curling 3 times a weeks. If they are getting bigger, faster and stronger, than I wouldn't worry about it too much right now.
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 13, 2009 17:56:27 GMT -6
I agree with those who say "HEY, they GOTTA be there!!!" But....just to play devils advocate: What if they are weight room Beasts...the most highly conditioned athletes in your program, and have training with their outside trainer since before H.S. ? What if outside trainer is CSCS, specializes in sports performance, and has a reputation as being one of the best in the business with a track record of major breakthrough after major breakthrough? If he's that good we could sure use his leadership to help out the other kids. Pony up the $$$ then if you could use his help..LOL My devils advocate situation was the situation I was in at the last H.S I worked with. OBVIOUSLY this was a unique and GREAT situation (affluent suburban school). Summer offseason training went through this coach, kids showed up to his complex, he and his staff put them through the strength and conditioning program. We, the football staff, supervised (and got paid..GOLDEN GOOSE BABY). He designed the inseason program, which players did at our school.. winter/spring offseason, kids could either lift at school for free (his program), or go train with him (members of his fitness center/athletic program. He took roll and reported to the HC. I didn't have a DB starter power cleaning under 270lbs. We didn't have a starting offensive lineman squatting under 430lbs. GREAT situation...but after I left, the HC left, an outside HC came in...did away with that program, wanted all the kids working out at school, forced all the kids to use BFS...oversaw a team that had been 10-2 and ranked as high as #2 in Louisiana top class go to 6-4, and then 4-5.
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Post by tiger46 on Feb 13, 2009 18:57:30 GMT -6
I'm not a HS coach. So, I won't try to get all up into someone else's kool-aid. Ya'll know a whole lot more about this stuff than I do. But, I think some coaches are missing the point.
hlb2 wrote: ....."We were 0-10 last year for one reason and one reason only, we played as individuals!...."
If this is the problem as hlb2 sees it- and, since he's the one that knows the most about his program- then the size & strength of the kids is irrelevant. Their size and strength gains can be monitored through regular team testing. But, again- it's irrelevant. HLB2 has defined 'individualism' as a problem with his team. That is the problem that needs to be addressed. I would not start out with an adversarial approach. I would let them know that our team needs leaders. I would define what being a team leader means. I'd let them know that's a role that I need them to fill. And, explain that they can't fill that role through absenteeism. If that didn't work; then I'd start with meting out consequences.
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Post by groundchuck on Feb 13, 2009 19:16:21 GMT -6
I would not start out confrontational.
How can everyone benifit? How can the kids keep seeing the trainer and help the team? Does the trainer "get it?" I mean is the trainer a dickhead or a coach type guy who understand that it's about the kids? If he truely wants what is best for the kids and not just his paycheck he might be willing to help your program out as a whole.
I have kids who want to "lift at the gym". I tell them that's great to lift with dad at the gym. What are you doing there? I typically hear "Curls and Bench". I typically tell them they need to squat and clean and do plyos and they should come do those with us. Then they can go to the gym with dad and work on the beach muscles. Some listen, some don't.
We are in the process of getting kids to buy in. Some of our kids still don't get it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2009 19:54:37 GMT -6
Always keep in mind the clientel we deal with- if you make it "voluntary" to many that means it's really not that important, if you believe it's critical make it clear to them where you stand and what your expectations are. I'm not saying lifting has to be voluntary, it can be required, but it doesn't have to be a team function. It can be done outside the team weightroom. I feel it should be left to them. Have team lifting sessions, but I wouldn't require them to be there, unless we were going over plays or doing drills or something. I would require them to lift though, it could be on their own, somewhere else, but when testing comes around they are on their own. I mean think about it, what are you going to get out of a kid that doesn't really want to be there to begin with,...I would think the minumum at best. I've seen MANY excellent athletes in HS that didn't even set foot in a weightroom in HS....One's going to be an NFL hall of famer.
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Post by phantom on Feb 13, 2009 20:58:04 GMT -6
If he's that good we could sure use his leadership to help out the other kids. Pony up the $$$ then if you could use his help..LOL He can get a chunk of what I get for the offseason. That would be nothing.
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