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Post by otowncoach on Nov 2, 2008 12:42:47 GMT -6
After studying the Air Raid system and watching Texas Tech a lot this season, especially last night vs. Texas, I don't know if Leach is running the same passing concepts that originated from when he was at Kentucky.
I saw shallow several times, but didn't see Mesh, Y-Cross, Y-Corner, Y-Stick at all. Seems like it was a lot of screens to Crabtree and the game winner was a deep comeback to him.
What do you guys think? Has he evolved it to something different?
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Post by spreadattack on Nov 2, 2008 13:22:27 GMT -6
I disagree. The touchdown in the first half to Morris came on mesh; except they had flipped the combo. Morris ran the flag and the other guys were meshing. They definitely ran Y-Cross a number of times. They ran Y-stick in the first half but Texas's defense wasn't really open to it.
They ran a lot of four verticals (obviously), they ran a lot of All-curl, and the play late in the game over the middle that was incomplete on 3rd down in the red zone (after the pass interference on Crabtree) was "shakes."
The final drive they ran four verticals several times. Harrell explained Leach's coaching in post-game interviews, and even said it was their four verts play. They still call it "6." Harrell said Leach tells the QB to read the defender: if the receiver has him beat, you throw it out in front like a real go or fade, and if the DB is step for step with his head turned away, you throw it at the back of his head for a fade-stop and let the receiver make a play, which is not only what happened on the TD, but two plays earlier it had happened with the pass to the other side for a first down.
I mean, he has definitely evolved. I didn't see a lot of shallow either. Obviously lots of screens, but that's always been part of the offense too. I mean Leach has been running the offense for a long time. If I was running that offense I would not expect to do the exact same things for over a decade in the same conference. Nor would I expect Leach, who was there when the offense was invented, to run the exact same things you can find on a Tony Franklin DVD or a Kentucky cutup from 1997. But it's all there, and it was all there last night.
The biggest thing Leach has seemed to do is more flipping around of the concepts. I think they started doing that when Welker was there, where they can run mesh, Y-sail, stick, etc from both sides rather than the traditional Airraid way with everything all right handed. That's a function of Leach being in four wides 80-90% of the time, rather than the old Airraid two-back.
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Post by futureazcoach on Nov 2, 2008 13:51:46 GMT -6
last night i saw more two back than i have in the last several years. now i haven't watched it again just live last night but they seemed to go two back old school air raid and check release. as for the flipping of concepts yeah that started in like 01 i think when they became base four wide. they would still call the same concept or route number but they would add H/X to it to tell that it was to the left instead of right. Dykes when he first left Tech on his way to Zona changed up the number system and odds are one way and evens are the other ala 53 could be y stick and 54 would be h stick.
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Post by towtheline on Nov 2, 2008 14:58:41 GMT -6
Does anyone have the link to that 4 vertical article?
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Post by spreadattack on Nov 2, 2008 15:30:41 GMT -6
texastech.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/recaps/110208aav.htmlOn the fade route to end the game "The basis of this offense is the vertical passing game. That's just a vertical that we threw behind, and we practice that every day in practice. We practice going over the top on the fade, and we practice the throw behind. On that one, the corner wasn't looking, and if he isn't looking, throw it behind his head like Coach (Leach) says and let your receiver make a play and that's what I did. (Michael) Crab(tree) made an unbelievable catch, and not only did he make an unbelievable catch, he made an unbelievable run after that and got into the zone and got us a win." On a different deal, Lee Corso asked him Harrell the play name and he said it was "60" but they just call it "6" (which we're all familiar with from the playbooks) and reiterated that it was four verticals and he just threw it to the back shoulder. I also am terrible with these links, but there's a TTech AFCA article from a couple years back that I think focused entirely on how they run four-verticals.
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Post by towtheline on Nov 2, 2008 17:04:06 GMT -6
there's a TTech AFCA article from a couple years back that I think focused entirely on how they run four-verticals. where can I find that?
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Post by spreadattack on Nov 2, 2008 17:58:21 GMT -6
Google? I dunno. It's floating around. If I had it I would send it to you. I have a print out somewhere but that's no help.
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Post by brophy on Nov 2, 2008 18:32:42 GMT -6
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Post by towtheline on Nov 2, 2008 18:59:24 GMT -6
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Post by hemlock on Nov 2, 2008 19:23:37 GMT -6
I just want to add a little to what spreadattack said. First, as always, he is correct in stating that Leach ran his base offense last night. What I found particularl interesting was how many times they ran All Curl. Leach likes this concept more than Franklin. But what's interesting is how he runs All Curl. The first time they ran it they converted to Shakes because Texas their safeties sitting on the rails high. Texas dropped their safety down and got into primarily a one high look. After this, Tech stayed with the All Curl. By my count they ran it 5 times last night.
Besides what spreadattack said, another reason why they look like they are not running as much of their base is because they do a lot more packaging to either side of the formation than they did before. For example, they run a lot of Double Dig on the backside of Ace and Dart.
Another thing is that they do more dig/post (same side and opposite) than in the past. This is primarily because of the amount of quarters that is played throughout the Big 12.
It's still the same offense, but they continue to throw in more wrinkles.
One reason why they did not run a lot of Shallow last night was because Texas pretty much played most of the game in a one high look. They started out with two, but rolled and robbed to three or one and its variations most of the night. Tech's version of the Shallow is best versus a 2 type coverage; conversely, Richt's shallow is better versus three, because of how they run their choice route and because its a single side flood.
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Post by spreadattack on Nov 2, 2008 19:28:48 GMT -6
hemlock: does Tech convert all-curl to shakes? I had always been under the impression that they kept them separate but obviously the QB's job is to get them in the right play often.
And they did run all-curl quite a bit. They actually hit the Y several times over the middle, and they tried to work it to Crabtree on the curl. I think one reason that Leach likes it more than Franklin is that Leach does more coaching up of the Y on the route so that it has more utility; the second reason being simply that it's a good play to get it to your Z vs. single high defenses (i.e. Crabtree).
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Post by hemlock on Nov 2, 2008 21:14:03 GMT -6
The Shakes conversion actually goes back to his days with Heupel at OU. If they got any type of a two-shell look the QB made like he was shaking a martini and that signaled that they were converting to Shakes. Now, it's a simple sight adjustment. The problem, obviously, is when teams rotate post snap to some type of 1 high look. That's what they got caught in last night the first time the ran the play; I suspect, that afterwards they just killed the conversion rule for the game.
This year they have run a lot of Shakes or Shallow in general. The lone excepton being K-State, which in the beginning played a lot of 2. Earlier I stated that the Big 12 was a big quarters conference. While this is still true, most teams fire-zone packages are run from a 1 high look. I think this explains why we have been seeing more All Curl, Y Over, etc than in previous years. Remember, a couple years ago they ran very little Y Over because of the amount of 2 shell they got - particularly Tampa 2 which effectively walls the over route off - sort of a picket fence for the route when you think about it.
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Post by spreadattack on Nov 2, 2008 21:21:01 GMT -6
Thanks, that makes sense. I remember in the Kingsbury/Symons years they ran a healthy amount of shakes, particularly as smash seemed to fade out of the rotation.
But things ebb and flow. That's why it's a good package of concepts, and Leachs two decades of running this can't be overlooked. Compare that adaptability with, say, Franklin.
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Post by dacoachmo on Nov 2, 2008 21:43:03 GMT -6
what is the "shakes"
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Post by towtheline on Nov 2, 2008 22:08:24 GMT -6
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Post by Coach JR on Nov 4, 2008 8:56:54 GMT -6
texastech.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/recaps/110208aav.htmlOn the fade route to end the game "The basis of this offense is the vertical passing game. That's just a vertical that we threw behind, and we practice that every day in practice. We practice going over the top on the fade, and we practice the throw behind. On that one, the corner wasn't looking, and if he isn't looking, throw it behind his head like Coach (Leach) says and let your receiver make a play and that's what I did. (Michael) Crab(tree) made an unbelievable catch, and not only did he make an unbelievable catch, he made an unbelievable run after that and got into the zone and got us a win." On a different deal, Lee Corso asked him Harrell the play name and he said it was "60" but they just call it "6" (which we're all familiar with from the playbooks) and reiterated that it was four verticals and he just threw it to the back shoulder. I also am terrible with these links, but there's a TTech AFCA article from a couple years back that I think focused entirely on how they run four-verticals. 6, 60, and Shakes are not the same plays...at least not in the old Mumme/Leach playbook. 60 is X and Z outs with H and Y verticals. 6 is all vert. 66 is hitches outside, which converts to 6 against press man. Shakes is in the 90 series...different QB drop and protection.
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Post by spreadattack on Nov 4, 2008 9:03:14 GMT -6
I never said it was. If you read the above discussion, you'll see that shakes was talked about differently than was the four verticals/fade-stop.
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Post by Coach JR on Nov 4, 2008 9:28:20 GMT -6
I never said it was. If you read the above discussion, you'll see that shakes was talked about differently than was the four verticals/fade-stop. Wasn't meaning to say you were wrong, sorry. I was really gearing what I said to the Corso/Harrell paragraph. I guess it could be that Leach has lumped all the "6" protection vert/outs/hitch plays in to a single "read route" concept.
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Post by Coach JR on Nov 4, 2008 9:30:29 GMT -6
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Post by spreadattack on Nov 4, 2008 10:49:22 GMT -6
I never said it was. If you read the above discussion, you'll see that shakes was talked about differently than was the four verticals/fade-stop. Wasn't meaning to say you were wrong, sorry. I was really gearing what I said to the Corso/Harrell paragraph. I guess it could be that Leach has lumped all the "6" protection vert/outs/hitch plays in to a single "read route" concept. That is the article. You're right about 66 and 60 and all that. They shorten 60 to "6" both for simplicity and for kind of motivation reasons ("we're gonna score 'six'!"). I think that is one thing Leach has done at Tech, before he got there I don't think four-verts was as big a part of the Airraid package. He lets his receivers do some adjusting on the play -- settling if guys hang over the top, settling in outside zone windows if they are there, and throwing the fade/go to the backshoulder vs. man if the receiver doesn't beat the defender deep. Shakes is obviously a 3-vertical play with Norm Chow/Spurrier corners on the outside and a post by Y. (he gives the post flexibility, can flatten it under deep coverage and to run away from man, split Cover 2 safeties, or merely take it deep on a deep post.)
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Post by raiderpirates on Nov 4, 2008 23:52:23 GMT -6
So shakes is what many call "cop" as "corner or post" in terms of the combinations?
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Post by towtheline on Nov 5, 2008 0:25:09 GMT -6
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Post by gunrun on Nov 5, 2008 11:35:20 GMT -6
Did they run the All-Curl out of 3 or 4 wides?
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Post by Coach JR on Nov 5, 2008 12:05:18 GMT -6
With Leach is this a pre-snap and audible, or a route adjust, or both ?
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Post by towtheline on Nov 5, 2008 17:34:42 GMT -6
presnap, it would have to be because you have to change the stems of X and Z
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Post by spreadattack on Nov 5, 2008 19:40:42 GMT -6
With Leach is this a pre-snap and audible, or a route adjust, or both ? this was hemlock's answer, who knows his stuff: "The Shakes conversion actually goes back to his days with Heupel at OU. If they got any type of a two-shell look the QB made like he was shaking a martini and that signaled that they were converting to Shakes. Now, it's a simple sight adjustment. The problem, obviously, is when teams rotate post snap to some type of 1 high look. That's what they got caught in last night the first time the ran the play; I suspect, that afterwards they just killed the conversion rule for the game."
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Post by thakatalyst on Nov 6, 2008 10:36:27 GMT -6
I like the conversion to Shakes from All-Curl from the 2 back look, but can this be run from a 2x2 or 3x1 set?
On a side note, do other Air Raid teams call a 2x2 an ACE formation like TF does??? Thanks.
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Post by towtheline on Nov 6, 2008 19:40:54 GMT -6
I like the conversion to Shakes from All-Curl from the 2 back look, but can this be run from a 2x2 or 3x1 set? On a side note, do other Air Raid teams call a 2x2 an ACE formation like TF does??? Thanks. yes it can be run out of a 2x2 and 3x1 set just have a shoot by a slot replace the swinging back in a 3x1 the back would swing to the single receiver side
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Post by hemlock on Nov 6, 2008 20:52:42 GMT -6
The one problem with Shakes out of ACE or DART is protection. Post-Corner routes take a while to develop; nonetheless, Leach runs it out of his one back stuff.
The key with the offense and how you formation packages is understanding the stretch points of the defense. Start with BLUE and then tinker with everything from ACE, DART, EARLY, etc; the critical thing is that from these different environments that you still create the same stretches as were originally created in BLUE. Sorry to be so opaque, but I'm tired and a bit bleary tonight.
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Post by thakatalyst on Nov 10, 2008 10:55:49 GMT -6
The one problem with Shakes out of ACE or DART is protection. Post-Corner routes take a while to develop; nonetheless, Leach runs it out of his one back stuff. The key with the offense and how you formation packages is understanding the stretch points of the defense. Start with BLUE and then tinker with everything from ACE, DART, EARLY, etc; the critical thing is that from these different environments that you still create the same stretches as were originally created in BLUE. Sorry to be so opaque, but I'm tired and a bit bleary tonight. No problem. Thanks for the info.
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