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Post by rathernot on Sept 23, 2008 20:27:06 GMT -6
Had a situation come up at my game tonight and before I tell the whole story want to ask your opinion. I coach at a Junior High School. Another team in our conference (we play next week) had a game cancelled tonight and apparently showed up at our game to scout. It was reported to me at halftime that these coaches had brought a video camera and were filming the game. Before I tell how I responded, how would you handle this and are there any ethical issues in your minds?
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Post by John Knight on Sept 23, 2008 20:31:30 GMT -6
They would not have taped the second half and they may have lost the camera, I am good friends with the Cheif of Police in my hometown and he may have had to hold it for evidence for a few weeks. LOL
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Post by coachbdud on Sept 23, 2008 20:33:15 GMT -6
there are no ethical issues here at all, what is wrong with this? this is very very common here. I film our upcoming opponent whenever at all possible. In league we have film trade so it is not necessary but for our non league schedule sometimes coaches are cool and trade, other times you gotta go out and film them. I really do not see the problem with this. Also most coaches will tell you their base over the phone, considering their coach called and got film on you guys, if you call him he should at least tell you over the phone what to expect. " Hey coach we run a 4-4 on defense, and the wing -t" or whatever they do. In my experience every coach i had contact with was at least willing to do this.
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Post by rathernot on Sept 23, 2008 20:41:14 GMT -6
there are no ethical issues here at all, what is wrong with this? this is very very common here. I film our upcoming opponent whenever at all possible. In league we have film trade so it is not necessary but for our non league schedule sometimes coaches are cool and trade, other times you gotta go out and film them. I really do not see the problem with this. Also most coaches will tell you their base over the phone, considering their coach called and got film on you guys, if you call him he should at least tell you over the phone what to expect. " Hey coach we run a 4-4 on defense, and the wing -t" or whatever they do. In my experience every coach i had contact with was at least willing to do this. It is not common practice here. It doesn't happen and is a violation of state association rules.
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Post by coachcastleman on Sept 23, 2008 21:31:59 GMT -6
There was a team in my state that got caught filming a scrimmage. Most teams in our state have a inter squad scrimmage the week before the season starts. The guy was from a rival school and had some type of past affiliation with the school he was filming. Anyway, he comes to the scrimmage with a camera in a grocery bag and sits in the stands. The P.A. announcer sees the guy and camera from his higher vantage point and actually calls the guy buy name over the loudspeaker and runs the guy off. I am surprised he got out of there. He later offered to destroy the tape.
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Post by coachbdud on Sept 23, 2008 21:37:34 GMT -6
oh wow i had no idea they had rules like this in other states.
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Post by jraybern on Sept 23, 2008 22:20:47 GMT -6
I'm pretty certain it is illegal in KS as well.
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 23, 2008 22:57:05 GMT -6
I think it is best if you DON'T film..and simply trade film. I think the biggest issue would be available resources...some wealthy well supported teams could have legions of filmers out filming...and some programs barely have enough for a camera.
I find different rules for film trading interesting. I was shocked when I was coaching college ball and found out from one of the girls basketball GA's that THEY don't trade film directly. She had to track down film of upcoming opponents FROM THEIR opponents. I didn't understand this at all...
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Post by poweriguy on Sept 23, 2008 23:09:11 GMT -6
We never filmed opponents, but we would call all our coaching friends from other schools and compare schedules . Then we would trade with them also. Usually we would have 2 or 3 games of an opponent before we ever traded.
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Post by rathernot on Sept 23, 2008 23:19:29 GMT -6
Thats just the thing. Most teams we play don't even film themselves (Junior High), let alone trade. I would be happy to TRADE with them but they just showed up to film the game. My principal actually came down to the field at halftime and told me what was going on and asked what I wanted to do. I told him it is against IHSAA rules and he should ask them to stop. They gave him a little difficulty but complied.
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mike13
Sophomore Member
Posts: 108
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Post by mike13 on Sept 24, 2008 6:31:11 GMT -6
In Va it's a regional or district decision. We do not allow it in our district. Our AD made two teams put their equipment up. They came to scout our opponent.
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Post by morris on Sept 24, 2008 6:47:23 GMT -6
We do not have many Jr high in KY. We have middle schools which is pretty much the same thing. One thing people have to keep in mind before they say it is illegal is that in some states middle school and jr highs are not governed by the same rules as the HS. They are High School Athletic Associations for a reason because they deal with HS.
We could practice football year round at the middle school if we wanted because we are not governed by any governing body. Here in KY I do believe a HS can not go and film another HS. That does not involve MS/Jr high and so unless those schools are in a conference with such rules it is not against it.
I do not have an issue with them filming on the lower levels unless they are filming signals and that type of thing. We had a team set up on our sidelien once and I did have an issue with that because the video could pick up what coaches were saying.
An easy way to handle this is send out an email to all th eteams you play an dexplain that you will not allow them to film the game unless they are playing. Let them know you are more than willing to exchange game tape with them if they would like.
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Post by wingtol on Sept 24, 2008 6:48:27 GMT -6
I really am struggling to get my head around the whole no filming rule that is still active in some states. My simple question is Why? I can understand years ago when the technology was not readily available and it was a huge advantage if you could film on your own, but why now? You can go get a camcorder for like $100.00 now. I just don't get it. Maybe I am missing something here and someone can fill me in.
I understand at the lower levels it is hard and there is a difference but why at the Varsity level would you not be able to film when you scout?
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Post by bulldogoption on Sept 24, 2008 7:14:00 GMT -6
It seems a bit hokie that they would show up to film only after their game was cancelled....and it appears you don't trade film. I don't think you are wrong to feel that it was odd.
I suppose I would have asked them for a copy of their game film. If they are sincere about their intentions...just getting their kids lined up in the right spot...then they would agree. But from your post it seems their intentions were to simply gain an advantage. i.e. they knew you don't have film on them and they want it on you.
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Post by jgordon1 on Sept 24, 2008 7:57:14 GMT -6
In Va it's a regional or district decision. We do not allow it in our district. Our AD made two teams put their equipment up. They came to scout our opponent. In VA as well, our district allows it because some of the quality we get from other teams is poor. the ad's were sick of the copmplaints so they said screw it, if you have a problem with film quality, film it yourself
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Post by dubber on Sept 24, 2008 8:02:16 GMT -6
Illegal here in Indiana, and I would have taken his camera, and his virginity.
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Post by coachcb on Sept 24, 2008 8:12:51 GMT -6
Illegal here in Indiana, and I would have taken his camera, and his virginity. I completely agree with this statement; if you want to trade film, than trade film. Showing up and taping another teams game is ridiculous. When I was coaching youth football, we had an opposing teams father sitting in the stands, using his cell phone to tape our game. He actually missed the end of his own kids game to come over and film us. The league commissioner came over, took the camera away from him, erased the film and then proceeded to lay into the guy.
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Post by jhanawa on Sept 24, 2008 8:32:15 GMT -6
We trade at the HS level, film at the jrhs level because the league rules permit it. The problem with trading film at the youth level is that the film is usually horrible, handheld film from a mile away at ground level is pretty useless unless you like dramadine.....unfortunately, our flim so far this year isn't much better...
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Post by rathernot on Sept 24, 2008 8:35:39 GMT -6
We do not have many Jr high in KY. We have middle schools which is pretty much the same thing. One thing people have to keep in mind before they say it is illegal is that in some states middle school and jr highs are not governed by the same rules as the HS. They are High School Athletic Associations for a reason because they deal with HS. We could practice football year round at the middle school if we wanted because we are not governed by any governing body. Here in KY I do believe a HS can not go and film another HS. That does not involve MS/Jr high and so unless those schools are in a conference with such rules it is not against it. I do not have an issue with them filming on the lower levels unless they are filming signals and that type of thing. We had a team set up on our sidelien once and I did have an issue with that because the video could pick up what coaches were saying. An easy way to handle this is send out an email to all th eteams you play an dexplain that you will not allow them to film the game unless they are playing. Let them know you are more than willing to exchange game tape with them if they would like. We actually are not governed by the IHSAA but in our conference bylaws it states that anything not covered in the bylaws will default to IHSAA rules. ie practice start date, eligibility, etc. In my mind this includes the IHSAA rule about no filming an opponent.
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Post by lsrood on Sept 24, 2008 8:41:25 GMT -6
Wow, I guess we are different here in PA. Our conference rule is to exchange the previous two game videos and each team will video tape the 3rd game with their scouts for the upcoming opponent. The only problems we run into are if the batteries run out on our scouts.
If it is illegal then it should have not been done, but if not, I don't see what the problem is.
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Post by mrsixx6 on Sept 24, 2008 10:00:39 GMT -6
Wow, interesting posts...we are REQUIRED here in South Carolina to provide our last 3 game films, wide AND tight, to our opponent the week before we play.
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Post by morris on Sept 24, 2008 10:20:25 GMT -6
We actually are not governed by the IHSAA but in our conference bylaws it states that anything not covered in the bylaws will default to IHSAA rules. ie practice start date, eligibility, etc. In my mind this includes the IHSAA rule about no filming an opponent. So your conference has rules by defaulting back to the IHSAA. So then I would say there is an issue. If it was worded differently or not at all then I would not see the issue.
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Post by cqmiller on Sept 24, 2008 10:38:39 GMT -6
It's illegal in Utah, where I coached before CA. Haven't run into any coach here that won't trade, so it hasn't been an issue.
Plus we are alway willing to trade. We don't have anything to hide... 4-3, and Spread
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Post by rathernot on Sept 24, 2008 12:01:31 GMT -6
As i said, junior high, no one asked to trade. I would happily give our film to get film.
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Post by dhooper on Sept 24, 2008 12:11:28 GMT -6
AZ it's legal, in NM its not
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Post by phantom on Sept 24, 2008 12:15:26 GMT -6
In Va it's a regional or district decision. We do not allow it in our district. Our AD made two teams put their equipment up. They came to scout our opponent. In VA as well, our district allows it because some of the quality we get from other teams is poor. the ad's were sick of the copmplaints so they said screw it, if you have a problem with film quality, film it yourself I'm also in Virginia. Even though we trade we'll film as often as we can so that we can have a marked digital video. That cuts out a couple of steps for us.
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Post by aznando on Sept 24, 2008 12:29:30 GMT -6
Wow I didn't know this was such an issue. I just figured everybody traded film and if they didn't I would go and have someone tape them ourselves. I know we ran a much different Offense than most in our league (run and shoot) so with one particular school who would only send us tapes of their games when they were defending the Wing-T or a Power I team we would go out and film them if they had a spread team the week or two before us because we knew we wouldn't get that tape. I never really thought about the ethics of it all. What you do shouldn't be that much of a secret. We would call other OC's who played a team and see if we could get any tips. I say gather as much info as possible.
Aznando
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Post by hsrose on Sept 24, 2008 13:11:51 GMT -6
Opposite extreme here in the SF Bay area - we film everybody all the time. Most teams don't exchange films at all (I haven't seen our team exchange with anybody the past 4 years), except in the playoffs when you have to bring all your game films and they take any 2. I will provide teams with our scout videos of common opponents with the direction/permission of the HC.
Even at the youth level I always scouted the other teams and did the (minimal) game breakdown. But, that was our own self-contained local league.
I'm sending students all over the place to get scout video. I teach them what I want, how to get it, where to sit/stand, provide them with a camera, etc. I then take all that and do the computer analysis thing with it.
I'm always surprised at the "no video scouting" rules that are all over the place. Just very different from the environment I've been operating under.
Ethical - If the association rules prohibit it then it is against the rules and knowingly going against the rules is wrong. But if it is unethical in your area due to association rules it don't make it unethical in mine.
Casey IHS Vikings
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Post by bobconnors on Sept 24, 2008 15:01:18 GMT -6
In Montana it is illegal. We do utilize Game Films Solutions so that every team at our level puts tape on the internet. We have 24 teams at our level that stretch from one end of the state to the other and we can see all games. Best solution to trading tape.
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Post by airman on Sept 24, 2008 16:55:16 GMT -6
in my confrence you have to let the other team know you are coming and filming the game ahead of time. you can't just show up. however there are teams which plant fans in the stands. they appear to be fans but they really are people the other school has hired.
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