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Post by airraider on Jul 15, 2008 10:03:39 GMT -6
Here is a kid that has wowed me for 3 years.. and I just find out that he is having to walk on somewhere..
21 ACT and 3.something GPA..
They said he was too small.. go figure..
My problem is.. I WISH I had a guy like this.. with the total package.. and I am sure all of us wish we did.. but how can I honestly tell any of my kids they have a shot if this kid didnt make it?
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Post by dubber on Jul 15, 2008 10:54:57 GMT -6
Could be other issues......high school HC's can make or break a kid's chances.
That small, he probably needs to walk on......though he probably had some shot at a 1 AA or D 2..........
Maybe teams wanted him to play DB, and he didn't want that.
A ton of things it could be.......
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Post by airraider on Jul 15, 2008 11:38:25 GMT -6
Could be other issues......high school HC's can make or break a kid's chances. That small, he probably needs to walk on......though he probably had some shot at a 1 AA or D 2.......... Maybe teams wanted him to play DB, and he didn't want that. A ton of things it could be....... Very true on all thoughts.. He played at Evangel.. where the coaches usually do a GREAT job in shoping their kids around.. And being who they are.. they get lots of attention.. But.. the school he is walking on at is Northwestern State University in Louisiana.. its a 1-AA school..
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Post by PSS on Jul 15, 2008 11:47:34 GMT -6
Air, if I'm not mistaken they are allowed more scholarships than 1-A schools but they often break them up and split scholarships between several players. This allows them to get more kids in a uniform on the practice field and build. They (Northwestern State) may be in one of those thin years on scholarships where everything is accounted for and didn't have any money left. Although if he is as a good student as you say I'm sure they got him some academic money for the year. May be a situation where he will be able to get athletic money next year.
I have a little insight on that conference because I have a couple of kids that play for schools in the Southland Conference. One at SFA and another at Nichols.
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Post by eickst on Jul 15, 2008 12:03:24 GMT -6
Maybe coaches saw how he was carrying the ball and thought that he would have too many fumbles in a more competitive level of football?
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Post by wingtol on Jul 15, 2008 12:05:48 GMT -6
Looks like a great player but it all comes down to what the college coaches think sadly. I have never figured out what half of them are looking for, sometimes I think they don't know half the time either LOL. I had the good fortune to coach Bob Sanders in HS. His senior year wasn't getting any D-1 looks. Coach from a Big Ten school was up recruiting a Jr. who would be the state player of the year his Sr year. HC brings Bob in and introduces him, coach says Hi turns right around and says where's so and so(the Jr) Later tells HC Sanders is too small to play in the Big Ten he'd never make it........
So who the hell knows how the recruiting process works any more! I think alot of schools are so caught up in the size issues that they will take a decent big kid over an outstanding smaller kid just in hopes the bigger kid pans out while they pass on kids who end up being better players. Who knows its crazy.
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Post by airraider on Jul 15, 2008 12:31:38 GMT -6
Looks like a great player but it all comes down to what the college coaches think sadly. I have never figured out what half of them are looking for, sometimes I think they don't know half the time either LOL. I had the good fortune to coach Bob Sanders in HS. His senior year wasn't getting any D-1 looks. Coach from a Big Ten school was up recruiting a Jr. who would be the state player of the year his Sr year. HC brings Bob in and introduces him, coach says Hi turns right around and says where's so and so(the Jr) Later tells HC Sanders is too small to play in the Big Ten he'd never make it........ So who the hell knows how the recruiting process works any more! I think alot of schools are so caught up in the size issues that they will take a decent big kid over an outstanding smaller kid just in hopes the bigger kid pans out while they pass on kids who end up being better players. Who knows its crazy. You are so right.. thats why I try to get ALL big kid out for football.. because like I tell them.. you cant coach size..
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qbguru
Freshmen Member
Posts: 90
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Post by qbguru on Jul 15, 2008 13:07:00 GMT -6
forget about the WR, Where did the QB end up at? He looks pretty dang good!
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Post by airman on Jul 15, 2008 13:41:15 GMT -6
Air, if I'm not mistaken they are allowed more scholarships than 1-A schools but they often break them up and split scholarships between several players. This allows them to get more kids in a uniform on the practice field and build. They (Northwestern State) may be in one of those thin years on scholarships where everything is accounted for and didn't have any money left. Although if he is as a good student as you say I'm sure they got him some academic money for the year. May be a situation where he will be able to get athletic money next year. I have a little insight on that conference because I have a couple of kids that play for schools in the Southland Conference. One at SFA and another at Nichols. D1A 85 scholarships D1AA 63 schoalrships D 2 power confrences 36 max. power d2 confrences usually require all members to have not less then 36. North Central Confrence was this way. D2 non power confrence usally have a 26 max but teams can have less D3 no scholarships most d3 teams can have unlimited rosters. D 2 schools usually start freshman out at half scholarships and if they become a starter or are a stud freshman they get a full.
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trojan
Junior Member
[F4:wingtcoach.com] [F4:wingtcoachdon]
Posts: 494
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Post by trojan on Jul 15, 2008 14:22:19 GMT -6
Very impressive kid. Speed & acceleration, shiftiness, great vision. Lots of skills. Not to take ANYTHING away from that kid, but I'd give my left arm for the downfield blocking he got!
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jamesmthomson
Sophomore Member
www.lakewoodfootball.com
Posts: 176
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Post by jamesmthomson on Jul 15, 2008 14:48:03 GMT -6
Having witnessed how big-time college football recruiting--especially at the WR position--works from the inside of a PAC-10 program, I can tell you what I think the issue likely is/was: He is undersized--likely is a little shorter than listed AND his reported forty time is 4.49, which most college guys will view as realistically a 4.5. For a WR they view as small already, the kid better be a low 4.4 guy or faster. I agree with another poster who said that you don't see him bursting and running away from a lot of people, though he does have great cutting/juking ability.
The one year I was working with a PAC-10 program, they didn't go after one of the best WR's in SoCal because of the same issue--not enough speed to compensate for his lack of size. Ignored the fact that this WR broke county receiving records left and right and was just an amazing HS player. The exact quote from the recruiting coordinator was, "We see him playing against us, not for us." The arrogance. To make a long story short, he ended up having a great career at another PAC-10 school torched the university for which I worked for a year and spent some time in the pros.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 15, 2008 17:28:20 GMT -6
Well, you don't. You don't You just tell your kids to keep focused, and concentrate on what they can do to improve. Studies have shown that the "pie in the sky" carrot (ie in this case, scholarship) is not an effective tool to elicit the desired change in behavior.
This kid is a great H.S. player. Unfortunately, this is no guarantee that the players will ever be MORE than "great H.S players". Plays such as the reverse at around 3:40 or so really showcase this. That doesn't look like Trindon Holiday or Skylar Greene or Shyrone Carey. It doesn't "wow"
This kids "downfall" is his test score. 21 is actually slightly lower than the National Average. Had he received 25,26's, an entirely different type of school would have been available to him. Not saying this to degrade the young man at all, simply to impress upon those interested that Excellence...TRUE excellence in academics (not just working hard in the classroom to get grade inflated G.P.A's and average test scores) opens doors.
Now, where I think the college recruiters went wrong here is that the kid is at ECA. Those kids know the "hows" to football. How to prepare, how to work, how to practice...This isn't a kid who has been coddled...he hasn't been treated like "football royalty". He has had to compete for his playing time. All good traits.
Sadly, the bottom line is that recruiters can't miss small. It is kind of like a couple of girls in the bar...you don't know how it is going to work out in the end ...but you always pick the PRETTY one and hope for the best.
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Post by PSS on Jul 15, 2008 19:40:25 GMT -6
Air, if I'm not mistaken they are allowed more scholarships than 1-A schools but they often break them up and split scholarships between several players. This allows them to get more kids in a uniform on the practice field and build. They (Northwestern State) may be in one of those thin years on scholarships where everything is accounted for and didn't have any money left. Although if he is as a good student as you say I'm sure they got him some academic money for the year. May be a situation where he will be able to get athletic money next year. I have a little insight on that conference because I have a couple of kids that play for schools in the Southland Conference. One at SFA and another at Nichols. D1A 85 scholarships D1AA 63 schoalrships D 2 power confrences 36 max. power d2 confrences usually require all members to have not less then 36. North Central Confrence was this way. D2 non power confrence usally have a 26 max but teams can have less D3 no scholarships most d3 teams can have unlimited rosters. D 2 schools usually start freshman out at half scholarships and if they become a starter or are a stud freshman they get a full. I was mistaken on number of scholarships but I do know that one school in that conference that has changed tactics and started breaking up scholarships so that they could get more athletes on campus. I personally like the approach because it gives you more to choose from and doesn't put all your hopes on a small recruiting class. Instead of giving 14 full scholarships you can now give 28 half scholarships with some academic money and you have a fighting chance.
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 165
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Post by tedseay on Jul 17, 2008 5:35:15 GMT -6
It is kind of like a couple of girls in the bar...you don't know how it is going to work out in the end ...but you always pick the PRETTY one and hope for the best. Ever see A Beautiful Mind? John Forbes Nash proved that the optimal strategy when competing for girls is almost never to shoot for the prettiest one...there is, of course, a football-related application for this concept: smartfootball.blogspot.com/2008/06/runpass-balance-game-theory-and-passing.html
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Post by airraider on Jul 17, 2008 12:11:53 GMT -6
It has nothing to do with the HC and probably nothing to with his academics. Whether you like it or not, It probably is his physical tool set. They dont believe he has the talent. They can coach anything they want EXCEPT TALENT.Believe it or not, They know what they are doing at the D-1 and in general the college level. I can assure you the kid has plenty of talent.. when comparing him to others I know who have signed with school such as Louisiana Tech and Southeastern.. he has plenty of talent whereas these schools are concerned.
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Post by rip60zgo on Jul 17, 2008 16:54:31 GMT -6
It has nothing to do with the HC and probably nothing to with his academics. Whether you like it or not, It probably is his physical tool set. They dont believe he has the talent. They can coach anything they want EXCEPT TALENT.Believe it or not, They know what they are doing at the D-1 and in general the college level. I disagree with this to a certain extent. While I would say the overall knowledge base is greater the higher you go in football, this is not an absolute. Football hiring practices are often not based on the best available candidate, but rather the best available candidate that that HFC has previously coached with or knows/knows of. Additionally, some guys are on staff almost solely as recruiters, and their worth as a tactician or position coach is more suspect. Circumstance and timing have as much or more to do with a coach's station as talent and ability. The kid in question has an issue, and that is his size. If you are at a D1 program and you offer a guy that doesn't fit the prerequisites on the measuring stick, he better be successful. If he flops, then you are an idiot for taking him. Now, if I offer a kid solely based on the measuring stick and he flops, then that's the kid's fault. He had all of the tools and just didn't put the effort in to get there. It is a CYA mentality as much as it is anything. Can this kid be an asset? Perhaps. But if I can get a guy that's comparable, but is 5" taller, it would seem to make sense to pursue the taller athlete. He has something now that the player in question more than likely will never have. That's not to say that the shorter kid may not be the better of the 2 options, but I will tend toward what appears to be the more certain selection now, since I may not be around if this coming season goes poorly. There is no exact science to recruiting or to the draft because there is no way to accurately predict what someone may turn into in the future based on circumstance, genetics, effort, etc. Try as we might to pin these things down, there are a lot of factors that will never be able to be measured. How many 1st round QBs ever really pan out? There are a few franchise guys, a few journeymen, but the majority of 1st round QBs are "busts" by NFL standards. Shouldn't the NFL guys be the best in the business at analyzing talent? They are at the highest level, after all. Recruiting and the draft are as much an art as a science.
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Post by coachgreen05 on Jul 17, 2008 18:09:33 GMT -6
what level of competition he played? Doesnt Evangel have a loaded team and they play nobodies???
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Post by airraider on Jul 17, 2008 22:16:49 GMT -6
Does he have a scholarship? their are what? 119 schools at the d1 level and nobody offered him a scholarship? NOBODY. Might want to rethink your assesment of him if he has NO scholarship. So you think that anyone who does not get offered a scholarship is low on their level of talent?? Maybe the kid only wanted to go in state. I dont know.. I just know that he is walking on at a school that is around an hour from home.. Based on your statement.. maybe I need to change my name to ignorancehater.
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Post by dc207 on Jul 18, 2008 4:09:23 GMT -6
airraider, you can call yourself whatever you want. Schools at the D1 are interested in WINNING. To win you must recruit talent. 119 school. NOT ONE D1 offer. I wonder why? I like your name and all, but damn chill out. Not every kid goes down the same path - ever hear of JuCo or prep schools? Maybe the kid took the ACT or SAT late. Or maybe they just made a mistake. Scouts/Recruiters/Coaches can make mistakes in their evaluations. For example, I went to school with a guy that didn't get drafted by MLB out of high school. Three All-Big-12 selections later he did (including one his true freshman year, so don't tell me he got better) and ended up playing four seasons and getting a world series ring.
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Post by dc207 on Jul 18, 2008 4:14:50 GMT -6
Maybe coaches saw how he was carrying the ball and thought that he would have too many fumbles in a more competitive level of football? Whatever, I'm sure your team couldn't use a guy like this. The kid's talented, and he'll get a shot to play in college. Don't be ignorant.
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Post by wingtol on Jul 18, 2008 5:13:28 GMT -6
Maybe coaches saw how he was carrying the ball and thought that he would have too many fumbles in a more competitive level of football? Whatever, I'm sure your team couldn't use a guy like this. The kid's talented, and he'll get a shot to play in college. Don't be ignorant. I don't think anyone said they wouldn't want him on their HS team. The whole point of the post in the first place was to get an idea why he didn't sign anywhere. He offered a valid opinion.
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Post by scoresalot on Jul 18, 2008 6:13:00 GMT -6
Airraider,
I understand your predicament with your players now looking and seeing a kid who is this good not getting the chance they think he should, but IMO this kid, while an outstanding player, can be found in almost every city in the country. A 5'8" - 5'10", 160-190, 4.4-4.6 shifty great high school player can be found on many high school teams across the country. Most of them end up at DII or DIII schools with great careers.
It is surprising that a DII school didn't offer him something, but did he begin the recruiting process saying that he would only go DI? If he did, as many great HS players do, then he could have hurt his chances at the smaller schools. I don't know, but I have seen a player's or parent's ego get in the way of a scholarship or opportunity at a smaller school.
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Post by robinhood on Jul 18, 2008 6:36:01 GMT -6
1. Not all D1 teams recruit nationally. This would limit the number of possible teams to be interested in this player.
2. There were probably hundreds of senior WRs/DBs of this young man's ability level. Many of these were probably taller, stronger, faster than him from which the possible D1 teams could choose.
3. There are a limited number of D1 grants available each year and an even more limited number of those used for the type of player this young man is.
4. The young man himself may have limited his possibilities by not showing interest in some schools who approached him. He may have thought D1AA or DII were not where he saw himself as a college player. We don't know.
Add all this together and some talented players every year are not signed by college football teams.
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Post by airraider on Jul 18, 2008 8:09:52 GMT -6
Airraider, I understand your predicament with your players now looking and seeing a kid who is this good not getting the chance they think he should, but IMO this kid, while an outstanding player, can be found in almost every city in the country. A 5'8" - 5'10", 160-190, 4.4-4.6 shifty great high school player can be found on many high school teams across the country. Most of them end up at DII or DIII schools with great careers. It is surprising that a DII school didn't offer him something, but did he begin the recruiting process saying that he would only go DI? If he did, as many great HS players do, then he could have hurt his chances at the smaller schools. I don't know, but I have seen a player's or parent's ego get in the way of a scholarship or opportunity at a smaller school. You are very right.. and I have had more than a few of them.. but all of those kids were making 14's and 15's on the ACT. I always thought to myself.. man if this kid just had the grades.. but what if he did?? I wonder.. why am I even bothering with college coaches when they come in asking about my players.. I dont have anyone that has the grades and skills of this kid.. just kind of puts in you in a funk you know?
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Post by airraider on Jul 18, 2008 8:12:06 GMT -6
airraider, you can call yourself whatever you want. Schools at the D1 are interested in WINNING. To win you must recruit talent. 119 school. NOT ONE D1 offer. I wonder why? I wonder why too.. thats why I created this post.. but.. once again.. if you think it simply because he is not GOOD enough to play D1.. then YOU are ignorant.. sure.. he might not be good enough to play at 80% of the D1 schools.. and the other 20% his ACT wasnt high enough.. whatever.. but to say he does not have D1 talent is IGNORANT.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 18, 2008 8:46:57 GMT -6
Airraider, I understand your predicament with your players now looking and seeing a kid who is this good not getting the chance they think he should, but IMO this kid, while an outstanding player, can be found in almost every city in the country. A 5'8" - 5'10", 160-190, 4.4-4.6 shifty great high school player can be found on many high school teams across the country. Most of them end up at DII or DIII schools with great careers. It is surprising that a DII school didn't offer him something, but did he begin the recruiting process saying that he would only go DI? If he did, as many great HS players do, then he could have hurt his chances at the smaller schools. I don't know, but I have seen a player's or parent's ego get in the way of a scholarship or opportunity at a smaller school. You are very right.. and I have had more than a few of them.. but all of those kids were making 14's and 15's on the ACT. I always thought to myself.. man if this kid just had the grades.. but what if he did?? I wonder.. why am I even bothering with college coaches when they come in asking about my players.. I dont have anyone that has the grades and skills of this kid.. just kind of puts in you in a funk you know? I can see how frustrating that could be. Again, I would advise that you make sure you don't use the "scholarship" as the carrot. As far as not having anyone with the skills...from the video you showed, i wasn't particularly impressed with him as a "college" player. Much of what we saw was a good H.S receiver who was well coached to exploit small school zone defense. These type of players win H.S. games and championships. They do not get scholarship coaches salivating. DCohio--Your questions showing other issues are great. HOWEVER, in this particular situation I would VENTURE (can't know for sure) that they wouldn't apply. ECA is one of the top programs in the state, and a few years ago, one of the top programs in the country. They don't have "non committed" kids in the program. I believe the reason he is being asked to walk on is that he has the top speed of a 6'3 receiver, but he is listed at 5'10 (which translates to around 5'8 in recruiting speak).
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Post by airraider on Jul 18, 2008 9:03:03 GMT -6
You are very right.. and I have had more than a few of them.. but all of those kids were making 14's and 15's on the ACT. I always thought to myself.. man if this kid just had the grades.. but what if he did?? I wonder.. why am I even bothering with college coaches when they come in asking about my players.. I dont have anyone that has the grades and skills of this kid.. just kind of puts in you in a funk you know? I can see how frustrating that could be. Again, I would advise that you make sure you don't use the "scholarship" as the carrot. As far as not having anyone with the skills...from the video you showed, i wasn't particularly impressed with him as a "college" player. Much of what we saw was a good H.S receiver who was well coached to exploit small school zone defense. These type of players win H.S. games and championships. They do not get scholarship coaches salivating. DCohio--Your questions showing other issues are great. HOWEVER, in this particular situation I would VENTURE (can't know for sure) that they wouldn't apply. ECA is one of the top programs in the state, and a few years ago, one of the top programs in the country. They don't have "non committed" kids in the program. I believe the reason he is being asked to walk on is that he has the top speed of a 6'3 receiver, but he is listed at 5'10 (which translates to around 5'8 in recruiting speak). DCohio raised some good points for sure.. I also think that maybe he did qualify late.. we had a big DE who La Tech wanted, but by the time he qualified.. they had already filled up all of their spots.. so they wanted him to walk on.. instead.. Central Arkansas offered him and he went.. but.. we BEAT the door down for this kid.. SAU Tech Grambling Ark Tech NSU these are all schools that I/We hounded about him.. With ECA being who they are.. have 15-20 big time colleges at their spring practices every year.. I doubt they beat down the small time D1 or even D2 schools.. as far as actively seeking them.. Maybe that had a lot to do with it.. I think the name Deleon Moss is far from gone.. I think he will make an impact at NSU and will get his scholarship.
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Post by dubber on Jul 19, 2008 9:42:05 GMT -6
It is kind of like a couple of girls in the bar...you don't know how it is going to work out in the end ...but you always pick the PRETTY one and hope for the best. Ever see A Beautiful Mind? John Forbes Nash proved that the optimal strategy when competing for girls is almost never to shoot for the prettiest one...there is, of course, a football-related application for this concept: smartfootball.blogspot.com/2008/06/runpass-balance-game-theory-and-passing.htmlYeah, always shoot for the drunkest girl.......
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 19, 2008 9:46:22 GMT -6
Yeah, always shoot for the drunkest girl....... Obviously you guys don't recruit in the same bars I do
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Post by coachorr on Jul 20, 2008 0:49:58 GMT -6
Test score of a 21 is not good enough? Hmm.... I disagree with that statement. He has a pretty good GPA and has passed the minimum score on his ACT.
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