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Post by 19delta on Jul 10, 2008 17:36:46 GMT -6
Always a tough spot to be in when you have a kid who would really help the team at a certain position but he is adamant about playng somewhere else. When I have been in that situaton, I have really tried to take the time to explain to the kid why we are moving him and how it would benefit the team. Sometimes, kids will see the team benefits of it and play the new position, but sometimes they won't.
About 5-6 years ago, I had a kid who would have been a stud offensive tackle...I'm talking an all-State caliber kid. Big, tough, and strong kid. However, he had it in his mind that he was a fullback. But, because were a 4 and 5 wide team, he didn't play much. We banged bloody fists against the door trying to get this kid to do the "team" thing, but it just didn't happen. Just a very disappointing and selfish kid.
Had another kid about 3 years ago, tough-as-hell wrestler who wated to be a WR/TE. Kid wasn't fast enough and had poor hands. So, we talked to hm about playing on the offensive line. Kid was very team oriented and wanted to play and ended up as a starter a guard on a pretty good team.
I wouldn't beat yourself up too much over it...explain your thinking to the kid and give him the opportunity to see your side. If he does, that's great. If he doesn't, you have to move on and find someone else.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 10, 2008 17:54:13 GMT -6
True Story--In the late 80's early 90's in I knew this tall, lanky kid who was a QB. Strong arm, great accuracy, not the fleetest of foot, but he was a very heady player. His 7th grade year, he and another kid both want to play QB. (First year of organized football at the school) This other kid was just as tall, could throw just as well, was just as accurate, was much stronger, much faster, a much more dynamic athlete. Now, the first kid had a bit of a pedigree, his dad had played some college ball, and even in a pro league. The other kid was destined to become one of the best athletes in the history of the school/he was already nationally known on the AAU basketball circuit as a 7th grader.
The coach smartly decided that HEY, for the best of THE TEAM, the tall lanky kid could play QB for me, and be pretty good, but the AAU kid would be the best player at ANY POSITION he wants. So he basically forced the kid to play something else. The team went on to be successful, and everyone was happy. The super star athlete went on to be one of the most highly recruited basketball players in the country (but a Knee Injury dampened what promised to be a stellar career).
The tall lanky kid turned out ok to.
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Post by groundchuck on Jul 10, 2008 19:37:17 GMT -6
I think with most kids if you communicate the reason why you want to make the position change even though they may not like it they will go along with it. If they want to play that is.
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Post by coachdawhip on Jul 10, 2008 20:58:48 GMT -6
Airman First I have to say that creating an environment where everyone is playing for something bigger than themselves is paramount. The last HC i coached with did a GREAT job of this. Two different scenarios in my opinion. I would agree with your treatment of the 3rd string FB vs Starting guard situation..because the kid is learning a lesson. Which is what we are about. But, I would do everything I could to get the kid to realize that he is hurting the team. HURTING!!!!! THE TEAM. I would point it out in PUBLIC, TO THE TEAM, that we need a guard, and we have people who wont step up (I would not mention names though) HOWEVER, in the case at hand, where the kid is best at FB AND the best at GUARD, I think it is imperative for the kid to learn that the TEAM comes before him. Starting him at FB teaches him that HE comes before the team. Here is where we disagree. I am not a lesson teacher type coach. i am here to win football games and that is what I get paid to do. Now that might sound crass or hard but it is the truth. they hire and fire you based on your performance. now i will not cheat to win or bend the rules to win. However the objective here is to win football games at the varsity level. now I do agree sports in general teach valuable lessons to kids. however forcing a kid to move often creates a unhappy player. A team is like a well run machine. in a machine a part gets out of line it can destory the whole machine. To me forcing players to move is like biting in hand which feeds you. Too many coaches make mountians out of mole hills. this seems to be a trend in education at all levels as well. all a coach can do is ask a player to move. explain how this move benefits him and the team. then hope the kid will move. by the time you have discussed it with him and then made a public speech about this, he has already told his friends and they know exactly who you are talking about. so you have in away talked about him in public. I worked for a coach who installed a hidden micro phone in the locker room. he just wanted to hear what kids had to say. so he calls johnny into the office and talks with him. he does this purposly to see what he is going to tell his teammate. johnny leaves the office and the coach listens. the kid told his teammates the opposite of what the coach said to make the coach look bad. lets be honest here, kids will lie about you to their teammates to save face. very few kids are actually going to own up to things these days. I used to kid really steamed about a player when he would lie to his teammates about me. however then I realized it was not about me it was about the kid. people lie or have fits because it is about them. if coaches realized how little control they actually have in the lives of their players they woudl be amazed. yep it's obvious that us teachers are wrong, that's why former players come back to talk about the impact of us on their lives. i do agree with everything else you said, let me stay put at FB and he will rot-away
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 10, 2008 21:15:45 GMT -6
i do agree with everything else you said, let me stay put at FB and he will rot-away The difference here, is that the kid WOULDN'T rot, but rather would be the starting fullback. So the team is hurt, AND the kid learns that getting your way is the best thing.
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burn
Sophomore Member
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Post by burn on Jul 10, 2008 22:41:12 GMT -6
I don't know how long you have been with this program or how your program is doing but I think that can make a difference whether this is worth the battle. Sometimes you have to draw the line for this kid and every other kid what your expectations are for them. Yeah he could become a cancer but then eradicate the cancer. There is an old saying I got from a coach, "I'd rather lose with winners than win with losers", that I constantly say to my kids so they know. I'd rather a kid like this either get on board or just plain get. You've got how many other kids in your program that are willing to do what is necessary, worry about them and the example you set for them. The parents may come after you but from the words of Bobby Knight "You did it your way." Which coach is usually the right way when you keep all of the kids in mind. Good luck.
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Post by talexander on Jul 11, 2008 4:29:34 GMT -6
Thanks for all of the input. This is obviously a common thing with todays athlete. To clear up a few things, he isn't the best FB. There is one hands down better, another just as good, and another who is more talented, but plays wing and spells at FB. Actually, we mostly ace back this year with two wings, thus eliminating the true FB type kid. We sat him down and explained why we needed to make the move--that we were thin up front and thought he fit into our oline. We explained that it wasn't a demotion (although I realize what kids see it as). I did say the choice was his, but the team was better for this. He said he would do it for the team.
What I did today is tell him "go where you want". Since I coach RBs, he came with me. During Indy, he didn't know what the hell to do. During team, I used two other "FBs", and he stood there.
Since we have 2 guys who are a head of him on the depth chart, he will not see reps. He is a senior and we are a young program with a ton of juniors, so I will just play one of them to get ready for the future---and teach a valuable lesson in the process
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Post by dc207 on Jul 11, 2008 4:55:19 GMT -6
I can only say what I've done with these kids. "You are going to play where it best helps the team." If they aren't willing to do that...they don't play. All you have to do is stick to your guns on one kid and the rest will fall in line once they realize you are serious. They don't have to like it...hell I don't like teaching Geometry either but it has to be done and that's what my coach (principal) decided she needed me to do. Not a democracy. A kid can play his favorite position if him in that position is in the best interest of the team...if it is not, then he's getting moved or he can quit. HE is not necessary. This is an interesting thread, I must say in our experience so far at a medium-sized high school we've not had much problem getting football players to switch positions. Now, getting new 'recruits' (basketball/baseball players to work hard at something new while fighting through body contact and pain) to accept their role? Different story. Heck, we switched three kids' defensive positions from 2006 to last season, and two of them ended up first-team all-conference, the third named second-team all-conference. Even switched one kid's position after week two, and he nearly got conference player of the year: he honestly would've been great at either DE or ILB. I respect dcohio's opinion, often have noticed his posts and thought, "Exactly." BUT here's my problem with the above quote: Once a football staff has made a decision about a kid's position, shouldn't we just move on because we all have other issues that come up weekly or even daily? Wherever Tom Jones 'lines up', whatever his 'job is', if in our opinion he does it better than the other kids on the depth chart, he plays. Aren't we now turning one problem into two? We have a tailback who is starting to look frustrated with being a slot receiver in our Empty attack (different job, more to learn, etc.) so perhaps we'll have to deal with it soon. Hope not.
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Post by dc207 on Jul 11, 2008 5:02:20 GMT -6
Thanks for all of the input. This is obviously a common thing with todays athlete. To clear up a few things, he isn't the best FB. There is one hands down better, another just as good, and another who is more talented, but plays wing and spells at FB. Actually, we mostly ace back this year with two wings, thus eliminating the true FB type kid. We sat him down and explained why we needed to make the move--that we were thin up front and thought he fit into our oline. We explained that it wasn't a demotion (although I realize what kids see it as). I did say the choice was his, but the team was better for this. He said he would do it for the team. What I did today is tell him "go where you want". Since I coach RBs, he came with me. During Indy, he didn't know what the hell to do. During team, I used two other "FBs", and he stood there. Since we have 2 guys who are a head of him on the depth chart, he will not see reps. He is a senior and we are a young program with a ton of juniors, so I will just play one of them to get ready for the future---and teach a valuable lesson in the process Well, there you go! That sounds vastly different than what I was worried about (a better player being benched) - hope the kid rethinks his decision after seeing the way things are going to be. Really sounds like a no-brainer the way you describe it now.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 11, 2008 10:27:05 GMT -6
Thanks for all of the input. This is obviously a common thing with todays athlete. To clear up a few things, he isn't the best FB. There is one hands down better, another just as good, and another who is more talented, but plays wing and spells at FB. Actually, we mostly ace back this year with two wings, thus eliminating the true FB type kid. We sat him down and explained why we needed to make the move--that we were thin up front and thought he fit into our oline. We explained that it wasn't a demotion (although I realize what kids see it as). I did say the choice was his, but the team was better for this. He said he would do it for the team. What I did today is tell him "go where you want". Since I coach RBs, he came with me. During Indy, he didn't know what the hell to do. During team, I used two other "FBs", and he stood there. Since we have 2 guys who are a head of him on the depth chart, he will not see reps. He is a senior and we are a young program with a ton of juniors, so I will just play one of them to get ready for the future---and teach a valuable lesson in the process Ahh...i missed that small sentence that he wasn't a starter. However, he did get the ball "frequently" so being labeled a starter wasn't important. I am kind of confused though. He played for 3 years. He got the ball frequently...how did he not know what to do? How is he all of a sudden NOT seeing reps, when he got the ball frequently before? Again, it is easy ot make judgments from the cheap seat, but thats what we get paid for here on the site (What...we don't get paid? ) Just something to consider in response to those who were talking about the kid "becoming a cancer, or having it fester" because you moved him against his will. NOW...YOU HAVE the same situation...if the kid was the type of kid would have become a team cancer because you moved him from FB (where you said he got the ball frequently) to OL....ISN'T HE ALSO going to turn south now that he has gone from being a FB (where you said he got the ball frequently) to a FB who doesn't see reps?
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Post by coachcb on Jul 11, 2008 10:32:59 GMT -6
I would like to know under what context he got carries? Was he getting these carries on varsity, or was he playing freshman, soph, and JV ball?
There is a difference here; the kids have to realize that being a JV MVP doesn't guarantee anything the next year. Heck, even getting mop up carries on varsity doesn't do anything for them.
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Post by phantom on Jul 11, 2008 11:05:36 GMT -6
Who comes out for football hoping to be an offensive lineman? When I played, before the Earth cooled, I had visions of being a great fullback. Five minutes into our first practice the coach said "Guard" and a guard I was.He was right, too. I became an offensive lineman and I'm still one, at heart, today.
Either the kid loves football and wants to play or he doesn't. If he does he'll help you. If not he's a "Me" guy and he'll get you beat.
Make the move. Tell him personally. Tell him why.
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MaineManiac
Junior Member
What you see depends on what you're looking for.
Posts: 311
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Post by MaineManiac on Jul 11, 2008 11:43:16 GMT -6
Seems like the biggest divide here is those of us who believe we try to work through it with the kid or those of us who are more comfortable playing the hard line. I still contend you don't have to play hardball long before you're not dealing with situations such as these as often. Trim the branches.
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Post by airman on Jul 11, 2008 11:57:38 GMT -6
Here is where we disagree. I am not a lesson teacher type coach. i am here to win football games and that is what I get paid to do. Now that might sound crass or hard but it is the truth. they hire and fire you based on your performance. now i will not cheat to win or bend the rules to win. However the objective here is to win football games at the varsity level. now I do agree sports in general teach valuable lessons to kids. however forcing a kid to move often creates a unhappy player. A team is like a well run machine. in a machine a part gets out of line it can destory the whole machine. To me forcing players to move is like biting in hand which feeds you. Too many coaches make mountians out of mole hills. this seems to be a trend in education at all levels as well. all a coach can do is ask a player to move. explain how this move benefits him and the team. then hope the kid will move. by the time you have discussed it with him and then made a public speech about this, he has already told his friends and they know exactly who you are talking about. so you have in away talked about him in public. I worked for a coach who installed a hidden micro phone in the locker room. he just wanted to hear what kids had to say. so he calls johnny into the office and talks with him. he does this purposly to see what he is going to tell his teammate. johnny leaves the office and the coach listens. the kid told his teammates the opposite of what the coach said to make the coach look bad. lets be honest here, kids will lie about you to their teammates to save face. very few kids are actually going to own up to things these days. I used to kid really steamed about a player when he would lie to his teammates about me. however then I realized it was not about me it was about the kid. people lie or have fits because it is about them. if coaches realized how little control they actually have in the lives of their players they woudl be amazed. yep it's obvious that us teachers are wrong, that's why former players come back to talk about the impact of us on their lives. i do agree with everything else you said, let me stay put at FB and he will rot-away I never said teaching coaches were wrong. I just said that is where he and I disagree. my job is to win games. I am here to help those who want help. I look at it this way, you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink. to translate, you can help a kid but if he is not interested in helping himself then you might as well let him do what he wants and sit on the bench. true competitors will move to help a team. those that are in it for themselves will blame others and sit.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2008 15:13:37 GMT -6
talexander, if this kid truely wants PT, you're headed in the right direction in my opinion. At camp earlier this summer, we told a kid that he was too good to be sitting next to us on the sidelines, but he was trying out for FB. We think he can be a great center. Pretty similar situation to yours and I probably should have told this in my first post. We told him we wouldn't force him to switch spots, but he was tied for third on the depth chart at FB. Well, after two practices, he asked if he could still try center.
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Post by coachjoe3 on Jul 11, 2008 16:03:16 GMT -6
3. School systems are more interested in avoiding getting sued by parents then they are of producing a generation of well educated, disciplined kids Agree with this 100%. My daughter has a slight learning disability, but is otherwise an everyday 21st century 11-year old. (Whom I wish came with an instruction manual. I recently answered the phone and on the other end was a boy who wanted to know if she could "hang out." Um, . . . no, she can't). But anyway, I think there'll be quite a problem when my wife and I request her teachers stop giving her "modified" (see "padded") grades and judge her on her work by the standards that the other students have.
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burn
Sophomore Member
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Post by burn on Jul 11, 2008 20:30:29 GMT -6
The world isn't going to modify anything for anyone. Good for you coachjoe3.
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Post by gilcd754 on Jul 12, 2008 0:08:45 GMT -6
Tough spot on this one. It's hard to balance team needs, life lessons and maintaining some control or authority in what's happening on the field. I do think an open, non threatening discussion with the player, allowing him to clearly explain how he sees it and then a clear explanation to the player of the coaches views are needed. Threats and ultimatums I think alienate the kid and even if he complies it will be grudgingly. If he still refuses, find the next guy that can play guard. The team will know he could have helped them and he'll know he let them down.
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Post by CVBears on Jul 12, 2008 11:35:37 GMT -6
Does any one's thoughts change if the situation was on a freshmen or sophomore/JV team?
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 12, 2008 11:51:40 GMT -6
Does any one's thoughts change if the situation was on a freshmen or sophomore/JV team? That is a good question! Especially freshmen...where there is still a great chance for physical change. This kind of ties in to the little story I typed in earlier. Of course, I have to confess, I sandbagged the story a bit. The "college ball" the Dad played..was being an All American at Ole Miss... the "pro league" was the NFL, making the pro bowl and being the NFC MVP even though the team was only 7-9. The Tall Lanky kid, who wasn't the best "high school" qb at his high school was....Peyton Manning
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Post by airman on Jul 12, 2008 12:11:49 GMT -6
Does any one's thoughts change if the situation was on a freshmen or sophomore/JV team? That is a good question! Especially freshmen...where there is still a great chance for physical change. This kind of ties in to the little story I typed in earlier. Of course, I have to confess, I sandbagged the story a bit. The "college ball" the Dad played..was being an All American at Ole Miss... the "pro league" was the NFL, making the pro bowl and being the NFC MVP even though the team was only 7-9. The Tall Lanky kid, who wasn't the best "high school" qb at his high school was....Peyton Manning I thought this was the manning family when you wrote it. I was not sure if it was peyton or his kid brother eli. Interesting how the oldest manning cooper was not even a ever. he was always a wide receiver. Peyton has said he is the smartest and best athlete in the family.
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Post by coachdawhip on Jul 12, 2008 12:14:17 GMT -6
Does any one's thoughts change if the situation was on a freshmen or sophomore/JV team? Yes, but the question also changes! If this is the freshmen team, when did he carry the ball? In middle school? If so then I could care less. JV team, no let him ride the oak....................................................
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Post by rideanddecide on Jul 12, 2008 13:03:15 GMT -6
We had the cancer last year.
Kid would've been 2nd string FB and 2nd string LB but we asked him to move to both OG and Nose tackle. He resented it, fought it, dogged it to make it look like he couldn't play those positions. Did everything mentioned on this board, but then it happened.
At the scrimmage we were so bad at guard that I forced him to get in there with his #30 jersey on--he got no reps at FB that night and knew he wasn't going to get any.
He had a pretty good scrimmage, but we talked him up like he was god. Mentioned his team first attitude to the kids after teh scrimmage and really talked him up. At this point on he was a proud OL/DL guy.
I never thought he'd come around.
Moral is, sometimes you just need to find the right trick for that kid. As a coach you need to do what is necessary to get the team better, and that includes getting the right kids into the right positions as much as possible.
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kr7263
Sophomore Member
Posts: 228
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Post by kr7263 on Jul 12, 2008 13:56:41 GMT -6
IMO if you give 16 year olds choices, they more often than not choose wrong. We have many kids that are too..., too slow, too small, too whatever. Every one of those kids thinks they can play middle linebacker and fullback because those positions are the tweener glamor positions. In their minds you don't have to be very fast or very strong or whatever and it sounds great. As coaches we have to steer those kids back to guard, nose guard etc by any means necessary. To me those kids are the backbone of the team. We start from day one freshman year emphasizing team, pumping up all positions etc. We still get kids who "refuse" to play Olin because as frosh & soph they played fullback and now either stayed the same size or grew.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 12, 2008 16:55:10 GMT -6
Does any one's thoughts change if the situation was on a freshmen or sophomore/JV team? I think this ALSO brings a question your Frosh philosophy in terms of personnel. At many schools, at the Frosh Level, your best players are your best players. They would be your best FB, your best OG, your best WR your best ILB, your best DE, your best NG.....
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Post by optionguy on Jul 13, 2008 14:27:59 GMT -6
I haven't read every post on this topic, and I apologize on the front end if my comment(s) are redundant to prior posts. I always allowed my players to try out for the position they wanted to play, with the understanding that they have to learn at least one other position that the coaching staff chooses for them to learn, and it is very probable that the position we choose for you to learn is where you will play. Since this procedure was communicated during the pre-tryout parent and player meeting, I rarely had any concerns about which positions players would be assigned to play.
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Post by 19delta on Jul 13, 2008 16:32:45 GMT -6
We had the cancer last year. Kid would've been 2nd string FB and 2nd string LB but we asked him to move to both OG and Nose tackle. He resented it, fought it, dogged it to make it look like he couldn't play those positions. Did everything mentioned on this board, but then it happened. At the scrimmage we were so bad at guard that I forced him to get in there with his #30 jersey on--he got no reps at FB that night and knew he wasn't going to get any. He had a pretty good scrimmage, but we talked him up like he was god. Mentioned his team first attitude to the kids after teh scrimmage and really talked him up. At this point on he was a proud OL/DL guy. I never thought he'd come around. Moral is, sometimes you just need to find the right trick for that kid. As a coach you need to do what is necessary to get the team better, and that includes getting the right kids into the right positions as much as possible. Coach - I think this is a great example of what "coaching" is all about... Like I have said several times, many of the kids we get are not going to be "Rudy"...it is up to US to find a way to get these kids to perform in a way that contributes positively to the goals of the team. If that means having to make a kid seem like the second coming of Joan of Arc for playing a different position, than that is what it takes...it is what it is! Anyway, good job. That is always how I have tried to handle those situations, as well.
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