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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 27, 2008 9:58:05 GMT -6
I am a MS administrator now, and if the HS's coach/AD came in to meet with our FB staff and AD in this manner, I would escort him off the premises personally, even though I believe whole-heartedly that the MS and HS athletic programs should be in full vertical alignment. It is the HS coach's responsibility to foster a positive, mutually beneficial relationship with the MS, if he wants the MS to be in accord with his vision for a successful HS football program. Exactly what is wrong with the manner? In the original post by txtoks: I guess as a MS administrator you would have no issues with this situation if the word "coach" was replaced by the word "teacher" and instead of being a Head Coach, you were the principal talking to your teaching staff. (education curriculum's are aligned from grade 12 to grade 1 right?). I am not seeing where the HC was not trying to foster a positive environment. THE PROGRAM IS A 10 year loser...there is a reason for that, he's trying to take steps to turn it around and make some changes and those changes are being met with resistance, what else is new. I agree that the HFC has to work with the MS staff, but it's a 2 way street. It is pure insanity to do things the same way and to expect different results. Coach, I think this post/situation is really shedding some light on how differently athletics are organized around the country. For example, in my district here in south Louisiana, the jr. high coaches don't have anything to do with the H.S coaches. Several Jr. Highs feed into multiple high schools. While sharing the same building, there could be a principal for each division (jr. high/high school) I have seen it before...the buildings were simply "connected" for economic reasons during construction. So, I think these things have to be taken into consideration when making judgments about this scenario. From my point of view (non connected jr. highs) i would have thought the same way as the above MS administrator.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 27, 2008 10:09:12 GMT -6
I am a MS administrator now, and if the HS's coach/AD came in to meet with our FB staff and AD in this manner, I would escort him off the premises personally Does this really fly though? Does the Jr. High coach acting the way he did really fly - even if the HC had no authority over him? Anyone can act professional when everything is sailing smooth. What does it say when we lose that professionalism when someone tries to rock the boat? As a parent, I'd be pi$$ed if administration and coaches were acting like this at my kid's school. It's about the kids, not about people throwing their weight around. Figure it out, move on and help me get my kid educated and let him learn a little football while we're at it. I would say the answer is..."it might fly" If the JR high coach was never told he answered to the high school program, if perhaps he took the position on the condition that he was autonomous, I could definitely see where he could take some exception to having a new coach, who was not born when he started coaching, start to give him expectations.
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Post by coachjoe3 on Jun 27, 2008 10:38:08 GMT -6
Does this really fly though? Does the Jr. High coach acting the way he did really fly - even if the HC had no authority over him? Anyone can act professional when everything is sailing smooth. What does it say when we lose that professionalism when someone tries to rock the boat? As a parent, I'd be pi$$ed if administration and coaches were acting like this at my kid's school. It's about the kids, not about people throwing their weight around. Figure it out, move on and help me get my kid educated and let him learn a little football while we're at it. I would say the answer is..."it might fly" If the JR high coach was never told he answered to the high school program, if perhaps he took the position on the condition that he was autonomous, I could definitely see where he could take some exception to having a new coach, who was not born when he started coaching, start to give him expectations. From what I understand the HS HC was told by the AD the MS program was his to supervise. If the AD hadn't gotten that info to the MS HS, then the AD has definitely has some communication work to do . . . But I say good for txtoks, he went with the info he had from his supervisor and despite his youth he kept his cool and his professionalism.
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Post by ajreaper on Jun 27, 2008 15:05:56 GMT -6
I'll tell you the crux of this entire situation- you have a coach that's wants to put forth as little time and effort as possible to earn his paycheck. Learning your system will require time and effort and he's not about that at all which means the sooner you can rid yourself of him the better. You got into this late but start right now with your expectations for players and coaches- do not wait, do it now if you let things go now there just that much harder to crack down on a year from now. You are the HC, the CEO of this program if he was a department manager and you laid out your expecttions and he acted like a horses butt (which he did) you'd reassign him or fire him and this is no different. Meet a second time with him and the AD, apoligize for nothing lay it out again for him and make it clear his performance will be evaluated each year and if he does not meet your standards he's gone- then he doe not have to work 5 days a week he can be "retired". I think this is a blanket statement, made with a great deal of ignorance to the situation including potential political land mines. This is not "thinking through" the solution as referred to it in the business world. Things that need to be considered: 1--Is the coach in question a good coach? Does he do the primary job YOU need him for, which is teach blocking/tackling/effort to the jr. high kids. Does he keep the enthusiasm level high, and deliver kids to the H.S. team. 2--What is the communities opinion of this coach? As FBDOC said, is he an institution, or just work for one. Is this a guy who has been committed to the area for many years? Is this a guy who has possibly COACHED many of the "important" boosters/board members. We don't live in a vacuum, and this is a real consideration. 3--What was the state of the program BEFORE the new HC arrived. I can't agree with ajreapers statement " " because we don't know the entire situation. It is important to consider the conditions that were in place beforehand. Has the Jr. High guy worked under the direction of the HC in the past? What were the conditions the Jr. High guy accepted the position under. 4--What is the best solution for what the NEW HC is trying to accomplish. Is it more important to win "this battle" or football games in the fall. They might be related, or they might be completely unrelated. They've been a habitual loser for the past decade- I somehow doubt this guys delivering top notch, highly motivated freshman well coached in the basics and then the high school staff screws the pooch. This MS coach does not know the new HC from Adam but claims he could his job only he doesn't want to work that hard- he doesn't say I want to spend more time with my family or something of that nature. He becomes uncooperative and unprofessional when it's clear he'll need to be coaching up some things he's not been doing- does not wish to take the time to learn and coach a new scheme. Who cares if he coached or taught current boosters? Who cares if the previous HC expected the MS to answer to him? This guy clearly does and apparently has been told he has that right (maybe that's one reason they have a new coach). If you ain't going to be you and do things your way but rather please this booster or that parent you've lost before you've started. They got a new coach because they wanted a change in the program- I doubt anyones thinking lets bring in a new guy to do what the old guy did thinking they'd get better results. It also sounds as if the new HC was doing exactly what he should be doing in meeting with the MS staff and explaining his philosopy and expectations. It also appears he remained professional when the other fellow started acting like a spoiled six year old. There's a right way and a wrong way to have dealt with this and throwing a tantrum was far from the right way. Sorry I do not need to know more about the situation to make the call on this fellow.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 27, 2008 15:18:15 GMT -6
AJ---just like our military/govt didn't need to know more about the situation in Iraq before they had to make their call either right? Obviously we have learned that situations are much more complex than we originally think, and that the "hammer" in some cases is not the best approach.
Again, our opinions come from our perspective.
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Post by ajreaper on Jun 27, 2008 16:48:36 GMT -6
LOL, the new HC didn't bring a hammer to the meeting the other fellow though has suggested a hammer be brought to the next one.
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Post by Coach Huey on Jun 27, 2008 17:09:37 GMT -6
1 Do you think I should go the AD and tell him about this meeting? 2 What should I say?... ... 3 I want to get my point across that I need that junior high program to be in sync with the rest of the program if there is any desire to be successful. And when I met with administration (all former football coaches) they all expressed that desire. Any advice would be appreciated guys. Address the issues at hand ... opinion on what SHOULD have been done or if the JH guy or HS guy is "right" or "wrong" does little to address the issues the original poster wanted to discuss.
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Post by k on Jun 27, 2008 17:29:33 GMT -6
If he doesn't go you'll go within two years. Poison pill.
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Post by optionguy on Jun 27, 2008 17:36:35 GMT -6
option guy.. a little different situation here though. The HS/MS are housed under the same building. It might be a 7-12 school or something like that. The AD is the ad for both the MS and the HS in the scenario presented here. Again, just by going from the facts presented here, it appears that the previous situation was that there were two separate programs...a high school program, and a junior high program. The new head coach is looking to make it one program, and apparently has the AD's blessing..HOWEVER, the AD failed to tell this to the current JR. HIGH head coach. Thanks for clarifying that for me, and I apologize for not recognizing the situation as such.
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Post by optionguy on Jun 27, 2008 18:09:24 GMT -6
I am a MS administrator now, and if the HS's coach/AD came in to meet with our FB staff and AD in this manner, I would escort him off the premises personally Does this really fly though? Does the Jr. High coach acting the way he did really fly - even if the HC had no authority over him? Anyone can act professional when everything is sailing smooth. What does it say when we lose that professionalism when someone tries to rock the boat? As a parent, I'd be pi$$ed if administration and coaches were acting like this at my kid's school. It's about the kids, not about people throwing their weight around. Figure it out, move on and help me get my kid educated and let him learn a little football while we're at it. At the time of my post, I thought the two schools were at separate locations and so I used hyperbole to emphasize the importance of admin. supporting their coaches, although my coach would be addressed for his actions, too. (I should have placed the escort...personally in quotes to indicate this. I apologize for the confusion.)
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Post by touchdowng on Jun 27, 2008 18:23:00 GMT -6
ajreap is right.
EVERYONE is watching how you are going to handle ALL situations since you are new. How far can we push him? How willing is he to accept medicrity? Does he want to be liked? Is he commanding respect? There are many fine lines you will deal with but it's important to let everyone know what your program will and will not stand for.
If you wait, anything you do later could be viewed as sort of reactive. Set your plan up and begin to work it (be principle based and think of people at all times). Be sure to demonstrate that decisions aren't based on personal views but rather what is best for the kids in the overall program.
You are a smart man for reaching out!
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 27, 2008 18:48:45 GMT -6
1 Do you think I should go the AD and tell him about this meeting? 2 What should I say?... ... 3 I want to get my point across that I need that junior high program to be in sync with the rest of the program if there is any desire to be successful. And when I met with administration (all former football coaches) they all expressed that desire. Any advice would be appreciated guys. Address the issues at hand ... opinion on what SHOULD have been done or if the JH guy or HS guy is "right" or "wrong" does little to address the issues the original poster wanted to discuss. 1. YES, I would go to the AD..the ex football coach..and say "Umm.. it doesn't seem like Jr. High Coach is on the same page with you guys. Has he ever been told that we are going to be an integrated program? Unlike others here though, I think that you need to recognize that there are landmines in this situation. If you are in a minefield , simply charging forward looks heroic and ends badly. Identify potential mines, Identify what YOU want (winning program) and figure out how you can negotiate those mines to get WHAT you want.
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Post by ajreaper on Jun 27, 2008 19:14:54 GMT -6
CoachD- you don't compromise with a minefield you remove it or circumvent it but either way you do not let it stop you in your tracks you make it a non-factor. If this HC was coming into a different situation- one where success had been the norm I'd agree you tread more lightly but he's there to fix a problem not maintain the status quo.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 27, 2008 20:06:42 GMT -6
AJ--the coach in question isnt the minefield. The scenario txtoks is in is the minefield.
I agree, something needs to be done. I am saying that going in with guns blazing isn't always the way to get what you want...
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Post by tog on Jun 27, 2008 22:25:11 GMT -6
i would rather go a coach short than have a guy like that so either work it out with him or do not have him working for your football program
if the AD doesn't see it that way then find a new job
this is why i will not be a head football coach without also being the AD in charge of the entire athletic program
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Post by coachjoe3 on Jun 27, 2008 23:24:58 GMT -6
Does this really fly though? Does the Jr. High coach acting the way he did really fly - even if the HC had no authority over him? Anyone can act professional when everything is sailing smooth. What does it say when we lose that professionalism when someone tries to rock the boat? As a parent, I'd be pi$$ed if administration and coaches were acting like this at my kid's school. It's about the kids, not about people throwing their weight around. Figure it out, move on and help me get my kid educated and let him learn a little football while we're at it. At the time of my post, I thought the two schools were at separate locations and so I used hyperbole to emphasize the importance of admin. supporting their coaches, although my coach would be addressed for his actions, too. (I should have placed the escort...personally in quotes to indicate this. I apologize for the confusion.) No problem, Coach! Sorry if I came on too strong. I shouldn't post after bedtime.
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Post by chadp56 on Jun 28, 2008 9:39:53 GMT -6
First to directly answer the questions, YES go talk with the AD. What does he think? How far will he go to support you? Tell him that you feel that you must be on the same page. Ask him how much control you have over the junior high program.
Now more opinion: I agree with ajreaper on much of this. The junior high coach must see success as winning at his level, because it is obvious that part of the problem is that kids aren't being developed. That starts at the JH and JV level. I've been in a situation a little bit like this, only I would say the resistance was much less. However, I didn't have some of the ammo I needed because we are a rural school and I almost have to beg people to coach at that level. Perhaps your deliver was a little off, and you could have sold him on the importance before you told him what you wanted. The only thing I might give the guy is that his workload shouldn't be as much as the HS coaches, and maybe let him have a little freedom. Maybe throw in a play or two of his own, or a formation or something. Let us know how this plays out. I have been fascinated by how varied the opinions are on here.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 28, 2008 10:36:59 GMT -6
Coachd - I think you're right on things being different in different parts of the country. but I was just answering the man's questions. Obviously in his program he doesn't want it to be a segregated relationship with the MS. I'm not going in with guns blazing either, but the first attempt at aligning the program was met with outright insubordination in front of other coaches, now if he lets the MS's do whatever they want, the rest of those coaches are lost as well. Change is almost always met with resistance. I would agree. As I have said, I think a key part of how this plays (and played) out is this "DID THE JR HIGH COACH KNOW that he answered to the H.S. guy" His behavior is extremely reasonable for someone who has been autonomous in the past, and has not explicitly been told that is no longer the case by someone he already recognizes as a superior. How would you feel if Jim Heacock showed up one day, and started telling you "his expectations" because all of the defenses in ohio answered to him? ( A bit far fetched..but still the same scenario if the Jr. High guy did not know the situation at hand)
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Post by ajreaper on Jun 28, 2008 12:34:59 GMT -6
Coach D how is throwing a hissy fit reasonable? What I do with one principle does not entitle me to become verbally abusive or argumentive because the new boss see's things differently. I'm still a professional and should behave like one- I don't like what this new HC is claiming in regards to answering to him then I say we need a sit down with the district AD but I still can listen and behave appropriatley or at least I should. If the district AD confirms what the HC told me then I need to agree to do as he requests and do so with no reservations and with 100% effort or I quit, period.
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Post by fbdoc on Jun 28, 2008 12:50:46 GMT -6
This is turning into an administrative philosophy thread. The guy wanted some suggestions on WHAT to do, at this point the WHY is less important. Several posts ago I offered these thoughts - anyone agree?
Ouch - tough situation and now its a possible pissing contest. Here's my 2 cents, IF this guy is an "Institution" (as opposed to belonging in an institution) you should probably try to keep him around. Go ahead and acknowledge that you got off on the wrong foot while also letting him know you really want to run a coordinated program. Give in on a couple of things but let him know there are some things that are just not negotiable (Choose your battles). Make sure the AD and Principal have your back, but my suggestion is meet with him one on one - over beers? - to avoid him feeling like you are ganging up on him. If he just won't budge on anything ... then you might have to make the tough call. Good Luck.
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trojan
Junior Member
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Post by trojan on Jun 28, 2008 13:12:39 GMT -6
Wow. I'm glad that as the 7th grade head coach I WANT to help out the varsity HC. I like being part of the big picture, rather than telling the HC that I've been doing it my way since before the flood and that I only stay here since it is easier.
Sorry. Good luck.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 28, 2008 20:13:33 GMT -6
Coach D how is throwing a hissy fit reasonable? What I do with one principle does not entitle me to become verbally abusive or argumentive because the new boss see's things differently. Well, keep in mind I posted from the point of view that the JR.HIGH guy was UNAWARE that he had " a new boss" I do agree with this. However, as I said, in small schools...and small towns...there are sometimes landmines that are best sidestepped rather than immediately confronted.
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Post by davecisar on Jun 28, 2008 20:48:31 GMT -6
Im no HS coach, but in any endeavor Ive done, replacing a manager, coach, owner etc, before I do anything, I gather information. Even if I feel my "vision" is fairly set, I interview all the stakeholders. I ask them what they think the biggest obstacles to success have been and what has worked/not worked before I start putting my plan into action. I always want as much data as I can get before I put a final plan together and into action. I ALWAYS do those interviews one on one and share some broad and very general ambitions but leave the details for later. If those details seem to step on anyones toes . those meetings are in private.
One would think a 26 year vet would have been met, interviewed and listened to before you shared yor plans with him. I imagine he has some insight on why the program has been such a failure and he may have been much more open to your "suggestions" had you taken the time to ask him a series of questions that could have helped you know where the problems originate. He probably would have been the 2-3rd guy I spoke to. In the 2 programs I started I did about 20 interviews each of stakeholders including former coaches, current coaches, HS and Jr High coaches and ADs, local business leaders, influential parents. I asked lots of questions and did a lot of listening. When I came back with my plan, it addressed many of their concerns using their own words, implementing a plan/vision that I had already had in mind about 90% in place. Doing it that way ruffled far fewer feathers and got a lot of people on board rather than just coming out and saying this is the way it is, support me.
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Post by optionguy on Jun 29, 2008 7:26:18 GMT -6
At the time of my post, I thought the two schools were at separate locations and so I used hyperbole to emphasize the importance of admin. supporting their coaches, although my coach would be addressed for his actions, too. (I should have placed the escort...personally in quotes to indicate this. I apologize for the confusion.) No problem, Coach! Sorry if I came on too strong. I shouldn't post after bedtime.
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