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Post by lochness on May 15, 2008 5:51:09 GMT -6
football is not rocket science. It does not need to be dumbed down. The standards as whole need to be raised. I cant stand the soccer mom mentality of make it enough so everybody can play. I agree...the mental and physical demands are part of what makes football a special sport. You take those away, and it's just another game.
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Post by coachd5085 on May 15, 2008 6:00:37 GMT -6
Am I the only one who finds it ironic that coaches are complaining about "changes in player mentality" and yet, we had several coaches here complaining about the SPORTSMANSHIP issue in the other thread.
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Post by davecisar on May 15, 2008 6:12:24 GMT -6
What happened to us, brophy? Personally, I think it has a lot to do with the way things are, or have been, in grade school. So very often, the kids that puts almost no effort into something, whether its sports, arts or education, gets the exact same rewards as the kids who work their a$$es off. Why? Because to reward excellence would hurt the precious self-esteem of the whose performance was inferior. God forbid we damage little Jimmy's self-esteem. Better we just reward everyone the same. In fact, lets just ban any type of competition where the performance of one student might stand out in comparison to his or her peers. Everyone is good but no one is better; every point of view is "valid" and no one's point of view is any better than anyone else's. Why would anyone make any effort at all in this type of situation? Unfortunately, at least to some extent, this is exactly the situation in many K-5 schools. So, for the first 5 or 6 years that a child is in school, they are in an environment where not only are there no rewards for excellence, attempting to excel is actually frowned upon. Of course, by the time they reach HS, everything is different and we expect students to suddenly make a 180 degree turn and become driven to perform at the highest possible level. For some, it takes a while to make that adjustment. Im not sure how much this has to do with this problem, it may be a contributing factor. BUT the criticism and snipping of the successful is a modern affliction that affects those past the grade school years. Guys like Gates, Trump and even Buffet are sniped at for any imperfection, IMHO by those that feel bringing anyone down a notch makes them feel better about their own situation. I worked for a big International Consulting Firm for 5 years. They always had these great trips for their top 5-10% sales people and thier spouses. It was a great reward as well as a chance to meet other top performers in the company during a handful of meetings to share ideas etc. This was a huge incentive for those of us in sales. The company finally had to do away with these great trips because there was SO MUCH gritting and gnashing of teeth, hurt feelings by the 90% that didnt win. I kid you not, the trips no longer exist, the company changed the pay plans that were more salary based than commisssion based, all the top performers left and now: That company that was in the top 5 in it's field isnt even in the top 30 and many of the top performers formed their own companies and took huge hunks of buisness from their former employer. Moral of the story: those that dont like competition and rewards are those that cant compete on a level playing field and are the biggest obstacles and critics of the successful. IMHO.
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Post by Coach Huey on May 15, 2008 6:22:15 GMT -6
Am I the only one who finds it ironic that coaches are complaining about "changes in player mentality" and yet, we had several coaches here complaining about the SPORTSMANSHIP issue in the other thread. beat me to it ...
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kr7263
Sophomore Member
Posts: 228
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Post by kr7263 on May 15, 2008 6:56:30 GMT -6
I find it interesting to compare the good old days to today when: 1. Children today are EXPECTED to learn and comprehend at an earlier age - NCLB includes standardized testing for pre-school, children as young a 4 & 5 are EXPECTED to be able to read / write and do basic math skills. My wife teaches 3 yr old pre-school and parents are upset because they don't teach pre-reading/writing/math and are threatening to "pull their kids out". On the HS end graduation expectations / standards are higher and the top 25% students are graduating with college credits & advanced courses. 2. Every building/district I have been in has had both leadership programs & character type programs at every level from K-12. Most communities have leadership building type programs / after school type programs / development type programs. My town offers organized sports starting at 3&4 yrs old. The HS I teach at has 4 different "leadership" programs in which kids can develop / practice leadership skills. We also emphasize (or over emphasize) character with many many incentives / rewards & recognitions for individual / group & class behaviors. 3. Kids have more access at younger age to ANY and ALL information. If I ask a simple question to any class - within one minute I have 8/10 kids with different web sites on their phone. My 6 yr old understands how to "click" on things to get information. Look how fast this web site has expanded and come back in a year- Ill bet we will have face to face interaction with instant video clips & computer imaging soon & thats a bunch of "old farts" who know nothing about computers! 4. Because of all this stuff most kids are overwhelmed. How many of your kids are always "plugged in" either on a cell phone, on an ipod or on a computer of some type. Because we are a consumer driven society this means company's are driving to combine all these things into on mega visually driven device. Soon we will see some type of glasses or something like that that can do anything (there are researchers working with brain synopsis and brain electrical charges to control devices) What does this all mean? Biologically kids are kids, they have the same emotions, feelings, urges etc. Socially kids are very different & unless we address the times it is US who will be left behind. 1. Kids need rules & discipline - but now days they need to also know why & how does this help them. 2. Kids need structure & organization - but they need to see progress & how this benefits them / the team etc. 3. Kids need leadership & instruction in character - but they need to make mistakes and learn on their own.
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Post by playfast on May 15, 2008 9:29:13 GMT -6
Hey fellas good conversation.
I strongly believe that team sports is really going to drastically change over the next 10 to 15 years.
Here's my thought.
1. How many youth organizations in any sport support the idea of practice everyday or practice in general. (I could remember growing up playing football, baseball, and basketball everyday on my own as well as at practice with a team.) Now it's show up once or twice for an organizational type of practice and then just meet up for games.
Kids are trained by the time they get to High School why practice everyday if I'm having somewhat of positive experience. (Example: My son is 7 he plays pee wee baseball everyone bats hitting off a tee and runs around the bases where as 26 years ago we actually played a 5 inning game with a coach pitching and 3 outs an inning.)
2. Middle School Sports. I remember there only being 15 kids on the Basketball and Baseball team because that was the number of uniforms. Now many many schools carry 20 to 25 kids and may even have B teams where they carry another 15 kids. I know cutting kids is hard and the question of fairness and ethics is discussed but are we teaching kids anything about life at age 12 to 14. Life is not fair but remember one door closes another opens.
3. Student Participation. I'm a teacher and my wife is a teacher. We want our child involved in activities but enough is enough. Our son is at the age where he and us discussed his activities, obviously we had more influence about things that he liked to do. He told us he likes baseball. Fine that's great but he had to give up spring soccer (it's tough being a head football coach, but then again my wife was a soccer all-american in college) there are kids on his team that miss baseball games because they have soccer games on the same night and the parents feel their child should be involved in all activities. Again what are we teaching? Do whatever you want and don't worry about COMMITMENt to a team or others that are depending on you?
You combine those three points by the time a child gets to high school they:
1. Do not want to practice because they have already had success. 2. Never had disappointment because they were always on a team. 3. Mommy and daddy let's them do anything they want and others have to accomodate.
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Post by bulldogoption on May 15, 2008 12:12:25 GMT -6
I teach. Somedays well, somedays not so well. The vast majority of textbook/teaching materials I find are designed as many have lamented about in previous posts. Our tests are mainly driven to have kids regurgitate the information we (because we know best) give them. Whenever I personally sit down and think about how I teach and how I could make it better, I always come back to this same problem. The stuff that kids would like best and gain the most from is the stuff that has them solving problems. And from things I've heard, some of the foreign countries that supposedly do better than us (I'm not disputing it, just don't know for sure) teach in a problem based manner rather than our 'set and get' manner. So why don't we all teach in this "better" manner. A couple main reasons. We tend to teach as we were taught AND there isn't a lot of material out there to use. I feel that kids are becoming very used to having answers given to them. If they can't find the answer quickly in their reading/notes they get upset. Our whole society is driven to get the information and answers out as fast as possible.....news outlets, commercials, etc. The use of imagination and problem solving seems to me, to be fading. .....And this seems to go hand in hand with the instant gratification we all complain about seeing in the kids , YET we all want our cable, electricity, running water, indoor plumbing, vaccines, etc, etc, etc, We reap what we sow.
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Post by carson101 on May 15, 2008 13:22:33 GMT -6
I don't really know, but if we coaches were to wear baggy pants, hold our crotch, change our vocabulary to yo,yo,yo...kids might grasp the concept of what we coaches are trying to instill into our kids.....my .02....lol
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Post by bleefb on May 15, 2008 13:50:08 GMT -6
I agree with Brophy that the self-esteem movement and trophy mentality has done permanent damage to us as a culture. The No Dodge Ball, No Musical Chairs crowd never want to expose their kids to failure, so when they finally experience failure its lawyers and petitions and "Mommy will fix it." I was the short fat kid in elementary school and I still loved to play Dodge Ball and games like it because something was at stake. Same with board games like Candyland and Chutes and Ladders. Bad things could happen in them that weren't your fault, just like real life. Now they're probably banned. Oh well, end of rant. You may go back to your regularly scheduled program.
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Post by los on May 15, 2008 20:24:17 GMT -6
Wow, this thing has really expanded.....I thought we were talking about the simple pro's and con's of using "artificial" memory for information(like wrist coach's and other aids)..... vs using strictly the old brain, for remembering your assignments? lol......Maybe the next post though, should be.....what has changed in "coaching" football mentality....to go along with the "players" ? Anyone let their QB's call most of his own plays? Let their defensive captain, call all the defensive plays? Let the special teams guys, decide when to use a fake punt, onside kick, etc...Anyone not wear a headset, or get help from guys in the booth? ......or. heres a real good one.....anyone do their coaching during the week and let the players make "all" the decisions during the game....of course we don't....but these were once standard practices in football.....in its early days....and some persisting, even into my playing era. We're "all" guilty of taking the "decision making/problem solving/strategic thinking"....out of the players hands and putting it into our own.....so why would you expect playing football, to enhance these essential skills?.....Just a grumpy old man's observation
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Post by los on May 16, 2008 4:58:41 GMT -6
Lib...I understand the "practical reasons", for not relinquishing total control.....but also think, the players on the field, know a lot more about....."whats going on"....during the course of a game, than most folks give them credit for.......point is......if noone ever "asks" you "what you think"....or lets you be involved in decision making/analysis/strategy......"how" do you learn these skills? It's "easy" to do all the thinking and make all the important decisions for players, then complain, because they don't use their heads, right?
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Post by realdawg on May 16, 2008 5:21:38 GMT -6
Maybe its just the schools I am at, but here is what I see. 1) Kids are not as tough now as they were even 5-10 years ago. 2) There are many more distractions to take them away from the game, that are much easier (video games, computers, ipods, cellphones, drugs, etc...) 3) Kids dont understand the value of hardwork anymore. All of our kids are either spoiled and have always have things given to them without having to work for them, or they have never had anything and dont see the value of working to achieve something. 4) Parents are crazier.
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Post by coachd5085 on May 16, 2008 6:12:00 GMT -6
Wow, this thing has really expanded.....I thought we were talking about the simple pro's and con's of using "artificial" memory for information(like wrist coach's and other aids)..... vs using strictly the old brain, for remembering your assignments? lol......Maybe the next post though, should be.....what has changed in "coaching" football mentality....to go along with the "players" ? Anyone let their QB's call most of his own plays? Let their defensive captain, call all the defensive plays? Let the special teams guys, decide when to use a fake punt, onside kick, etc...Anyone not wear a headset, or get help from guys in the booth? ......or. heres a real good one.....anyone do their coaching during the week and let the players make "all" the decisions during the game....of course we don't....but these were once standard practices in football.....in its early days....and some persisting, even into my playing era. We're "all" guilty of taking the "decision making/problem solving/strategic thinking"....out of the players hands and putting it into our own.....so why would you expect playing football, to enhance these essential skills?.....Just a grumpy old man's observation HAHA..I am with you los. I am not surprised though, as most on here are teachers, and teachers complain. Complain about administration, other teachers, students, and parents. I truly believe that many MANY on here are "suffering" from very selective memory, or perhaps just a very distorted view of history.
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Post by phantom on May 16, 2008 6:42:43 GMT -6
Wow, this thing has really expanded.....I thought we were talking about the simple pro's and con's of using "artificial" memory for information(like wrist coach's and other aids)..... vs using strictly the old brain, for remembering your assignments? lol......Maybe the next post though, should be.....what has changed in "coaching" football mentality....to go along with the "players" ? Anyone let their QB's call most of his own plays? Let their defensive captain, call all the defensive plays? Let the special teams guys, decide when to use a fake punt, onside kick, etc...Anyone not wear a headset, or get help from guys in the booth? ......or. heres a real good one.....anyone do their coaching during the week and let the players make "all" the decisions during the game....of course we don't....but these were once standard practices in football.....in its early days....and some persisting, even into my playing era. We're "all" guilty of taking the "decision making/problem solving/strategic thinking"....out of the players hands and putting it into our own.....so why would you expect playing football, to enhance these essential skills?.....Just a grumpy old man's observation HAHA..I am with you los. I am not surprised though, as most on here are teachers, and teachers complain. Complain about administration, other teachers, students, and parents. I truly believe that many MANY on here are "suffering" from very selective memory, or perhaps just a very distorted view of history. Well, we teachers do have a lot to complain about. One thing that I won't complain about is our players. I've been doing this longer than most and there's no doubt that our kids today work infinitely harder than they did when I started. They also have more to learn and learn it better. This is one geezer who's not getting on the "back in the day" wagon because it has no wheels.
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Post by scoresalot on May 16, 2008 7:02:43 GMT -6
HAHA..I am with you los. I am not surprised though, as most on here are teachers, and teachers complain. Complain about administration, other teachers, students, and parents. I truly believe that many MANY on here are "suffering" from very selective memory, or perhaps just a very distorted view of history. Well, we teachers do have a lot to complain about. One thing that I won't complain about is our players. I've been doing this longer than most and there's no doubt that our kids today work infinitely harder than they did when I started. They also have more to learn and learn it better. This is one geezer who's not getting on the "back in the day" wagon because it has no wheels. Phantom: I have not been doing this as long as many, but I agree with you. Kids work much, much harder today than even when I played in the late 80s and early 90s. Did we lift? Yes, those who wanted to be good. Did we condition in the off-season? Some did. Did we watch film on our own? Very few did, and I was on a team that went 35-5 over my 4 years there. We ask much, much more of our athletes today than we ever did in the past. Then, you add to it what they have to do academically, community service, etc. We may think they don't work as hard because they work much smarter. The technology today gives them the ability to do more things in less time with the same or better outcomes. Remember when you started watching film, 8 mm or even VHS, it took a ton of time to get through it. Now, I can bring my QB in and we can watch 3 games in the amount of time that we used to watch one because of the Landro system. I won't even mention the social pressures they deal with that are much more difficult than the ones we did. I will agree with others that we need to move away from trying not to hurt kids self-esteem or experience failure. I think experiencing failure helps kids learn that they don't like it and they will work harder to avoid it. I know for me, I have always hated losing more than I loved winning. That is what motivates me to succeed. I HATE LOSING!
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Post by brophy on May 16, 2008 7:34:02 GMT -6
One final thought, and take it for what its worth.....
I played in the late 80's and early 90's. I liked football, lifted, played all sports, was in a band....
but, the girls back then, did not look they way they do today. If they did, I likely wouldn't have graduated.
So.....anything I can do as a coach, to make the game easier for our players (while looking more complicated to the players across the field going through the same things), the better off we'll be.
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Post by bulldogoption on May 16, 2008 14:12:34 GMT -6
That's what I was talking about .....or guns When did this thread become about teachers? ??......Seriously, I know plenty of people who complain A LOT who aren't teachers. Just head down to your local tavern on the corner and all you'll hear is complaining Where the heck did that come from? Gotta go and save the world from video games......
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Post by los on May 17, 2008 20:11:29 GMT -6
Lib....didn't say I recommended it, for every day use now, lol....only that..... "it was the way they played the game in the past".....point being.....there have been plenty of changes in player and coaching mentality thru the decades, and "I'll bet" every previous generation of football players thought the next generation were soft, spoiled, mama's boys, that couldn't think for themselves?
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Post by dubber on May 18, 2008 10:10:54 GMT -6
There's nothing wrong with learning to use your brain, lol....don't get me wrong.....but in todays enviroment, the "real skills" are in accessing information quickly, "comprehending it", then using it productively and efficiently......at least in my field = a "good memory" or some may call it "experience", only comes thru "repetitions" of seeing the same problems, on the same type vehicles, over and over......translate this over to football......the more complex, or varied... the schemes or assignments are.....the less reps......the less a player can use his memory/experience.....the more he needs access to "useable information" to get the job done right? Coach: I think creating a dichotomy between "accessing information quickly" and "using your brain" is indicative of the root problem here...critical thinking skills are not taught, haven't been taught for a long time, and appear to be actively discouraged by today's education establishment. It's not just that kids can't construct valid arguments -- it's that in most cases they have no clue what logic even is. And yes, that does have an impact on the football field. I am as phobic about creating "paralysis by analysis" as anyone on this board -- but I want my kids to be able to analyze situations logically, when that is the skill that is called for... This is exactly why PHILOSOPHY should be required in public schools. Ask any college professor what the hardest thing for them to get freshmen to do is.............. THINK FOR THEMSELVES. I can memorize everything there is to know about the Oxygen sensor in a Ford, yet never learn exactly how the whole things works, what its function is, why Ford put it on there, etc. So, when I start to work on the oxygen sensor for other vehicles, I am lost. Why is the human brain better than a computer? Computers hold practically endless amounts of data, far more than any human brain could hold. However, a computer cannot create or conceptualize. We need to emphasis conceptualization (which involves understanding "Why" not just "What"). From my studies, Air Raid seems idiot proff for the QB. Mike Leach tells his QB's "do not talk to me about coverages". It is simple 1, 2, 3, etc. in terms of progressions. Add the R4 system in there, and your QB doesn't have to know a thing about how/why the system works. Just hit the open rec. HOWEVER The system works better when the QB understand the WHYs behind the Mesh (man beater, horizontal stretch, etc.)......................execution increases with conceptualization Ted Seay could have his kids run Fly sweep and add the FB IZ play and be fine. But the thing really takes off when his players understand how those two plays compliment one another. That being said, Tony Franklin wrist bands are good to get the thing running, but they serve another purpose. I feel that they eventually actually HELP a player understand the whole organism, rather than HINDER them. "H" soon understands that when he runs "H shallow", Y is doing what H does on "Y shallow". whole-part-whole learning I believe it is called Now, as for the special teams mat, that's just making it easier on your ST coordinator (who are unusually nervous guys anyway)
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 165
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Post by tedseay on May 18, 2008 10:18:43 GMT -6
whole-part-whole learning I believe it is called Now, as for the special teams mat, that's just making it easier on your ST coordinator (who are unusually nervous guys anyway) dubmeister: I have a very hard time arguing with that. And I studied philosophy. ;D ;D
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