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Post by jonnyboy on Aug 14, 2005 19:48:36 GMT -6
didn't really know where to put this post...
-there have been some discussions/arguments over the 46 defense while playing a cover 0 pressure concept with it.
-just wondering what everyones philosophy is at the jr. high level. i know coach calande has had great success with the 46 at the jr. high level (assuming he blitzes a lot as well).
Should 7th and 8th graders be playing a defense that relies on blitzing? when you blitz you are not playing your base defense...
---DE's aren't being taught how to read the block of a Tackle
---LB's don't read guards because they are always blitzing
---secondary personnel do not understand zone defense, which is more prevalent at the high school level
---defenses don't know how to contain a ball carrier because kids get out of position
---you may give the kids a false sense of success, they are successful because the opponent offense, or any offense at that level, will have a difficult time beating pressure
---we have blitzaholic coaches at the jr. high level and then when they get to high school we have to go back to square one because the kids don't know anything, literally
---it's sort of like having your youth basketball teams press the whole game---the other team may struggle because they aren't physically strong enough to throw a pass over the top of the press. the kids will succeed because of the press but are behind when they get to high school because the other teams can beat the press
Does anyone have any rules in their youth levels regarding blitzing? I just think it's sort of a diservice to the development of youth football players to rely on blitzing.
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Post by tog on Aug 14, 2005 19:53:50 GMT -6
jonny, I would use enough blitzes and walkups to make them confuse and have a chance to disrupt the other teams, just so they can win and build some momentum for the program
BUT, i would want them as BASE as possible to learn the fundamentals
i guess another point within this is how much you plan on bringing people at the higher levels anyway
for example, we are a 3-3 stack team that brings people from all over, and prowls around the line trying to confuse people, the main reason we went to this, is because if we sit in a base look, people will just run us over
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Post by coachgregory on Aug 15, 2005 7:18:35 GMT -6
Jonnyboy,
I personally don't think it is my job to teach a higher level coaches defense or offense. Just because you consider something fundamental doesn't make it fundemental for every coach.
For instance some coaches don't have the LB read guards but tackles. DE play can vary greatly from defense to defense. Secondary play can also vary greatly from defense to defense. At the youth level fundamentals is stance, footwork, progressive reads and movement. Not defense or offense specific techniques that your suggesting. I would rather focus on real fundamentals that are going to help that kid succeed. I also think you can try to mimic what higher level coaches are doing and cut the ability for those young kids to actually learn how to succeed and win because often what works at higher levels doesn't work at lower levels.
As far as Steve's 46. The base five man front applies a great amount of pressure but there a lot of calls in the defense to allow you to bring additional pressure....(to allow you to succeed against an offense). A 46 defensive end is a different monster from a 43 or 34 defensive end so they have different responsibilities. Even Steve will tell you that he only calls blitzs when has to or when he gets a little itchy and desire to create havoc. I don't run Steve's version but I run a pretty close version of it in the DC46.
Overall I think teaching kids how to be successful football players and establishing an winning attitude is far more important then teaching a kid how to sit in a BASE technique an entire game.
Jack
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Aug 15, 2005 9:36:08 GMT -6
Our JH runs primarily only the HS base defense. We do, however stunt a lot more on that level, but only after we get pounded. Some HS do not have the opportunity we have- unless someone moves, all of our JH kids will play at the HS (in my previous school in a large metro area, this was not the case). However, practice for JH is the last period of the day which only gives us about 45 min. of field time per day…we have to keep things overly simple. This is good because I as a HC get to work with the JH directly; it’s bad b/c we have little time to do anything once we figure out how to put on our pants and pads. We basically run the HS offense and defense, both substantially watered down. We have won about 8 JH games over the last 15 years… which would concern me more but 1) due to our location/travel with JH, we play much bigger schools in JH, 2) they learn the system a bit and are ready to jump in and be backups as freshmen (which we need), 3) the HS team has not missed the playoffs since 1988…all the JH kids know that their JH record doesn’t matter if they work hard when they are in HS. 3 senior classes that played for a state championship were winless as 8th graders… that’s unusual but hasn’t seemed to hurt us much. I guess if you are in a situation where all JH kids move up to one HS, I’m for getting them adapted to the program- at least in terms of terminology, blocking rules, read keys, etc. The same plays/stunts aren’t that big of a deal to me- but I do want them to learn football in a way that is similar to how they will learn it in HS. However, I think that it is important to recognize that every situation is different...what works for us here may not elsewhere and vise versa.
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Post by jonnyboy on Aug 18, 2005 16:47:15 GMT -6
coach gregory...won't an 8th grader, who uses the same terminology, runs the same drills, and uses the same techniques as the high schoo team (with offense and defense watered down of course), have an advantage over the 8th grader who doesn't?
otherwise, when the kids get to 9th grade the coaches have to teach them an entire new offense and/or defense
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Post by Coach Huey on Aug 18, 2005 16:58:35 GMT -6
what if they just learned how to run, catch, block, pass, tackle, and generally develop those athletic skills (i.e. hip level, footwork agility, body control, etc.)  what offense/defense they use to develop these skills means less to me than the issue of just being able to be an athlete. bothers me that kids can't throw & catch. upsets me to see just how poorly kids are able to control their bodies when in motion (stride, hip level, head, vision, etc.) play the game........have fun......LOVE THE GAME!!!......can't play the game if you like it, you gotta' love it.........BE AN ATHLETE 1ST........the rest will follow |
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Post by coachgregory on Aug 20, 2005 20:16:55 GMT -6
Coach,
"coach gregory...won't an 8th grader, who uses the same terminology, runs the same drills, and uses the same techniques as the high schoo team (with offense and defense watered down of course), have an advantage over the 8th grader who doesn't?"
Not really. A kid that is fundamentally sound that can tackle, block, run, catch, and throw well as well as control his body while moving is going to impress a coach and they are going to find a spot for that kid to play. A kid that knows the system and can't do the above things is worthless.
Not to mention why would I run a system that I don't as coach believe in? Part of the reason we coach and a head coach is a head coach is because want to do those things our way; the way that MOST EFFECTIVE FOR OUR KIDS TO BE SUCCESSFUL.
I can see if my employer is the HEAD COACH of the HS and then I would follow along and do what I was told and offer my opinion on what will work with the kids I have. Otherwise not going to happen I am running the show. My whistle, my name, my show. I am going to run the system I believe in and crank out quality players. Nothing more and nothing less.
"otherwise, when the kids get to 9th grade the coaches have to teach them an entire new offense and/or defense "
That is the HS coaches job is it not? To teach?
Jack
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Post by coachgregory on Aug 21, 2005 7:57:25 GMT -6
KW,
Coach I agree totally. I just don't think it is my job to teach someone elses system. Techniques are normally specific to a coaches system. You should coach techniques that are effective with the kids your coaching and the system your using. Fundamentals also range from experience level. What you call fundamental at the HS level is not so fundamental at the lower levels and so forth.
As an athlete advances it is the next staff's job to teach them whatever system they want to use. From the logic posted every college near a specific NFL team should be running their offense and defense and every HS team near that college should be running that offense and defense...you see where I am going with this. Doesn't make a lot of sense in my opinion.
Ask yourself if you would like a local college coach walking into your clubhouse and telling you want specific systems and techniques to run so that they could improve the quality of their program and they really didn't care about how successful your program was as long as it feed knowledgable players into their system.................
Jack
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Post by Split50 on Aug 21, 2005 8:52:13 GMT -6
Sorry, Coach Gregory, but high schools don't feed specific colleges and colleges don't feed specific NFL teams.
In this state, junior highs do feed specific high schools and those schools are usually under the direction of that high school. In the smaller schools, junior highs are just extensions of the high schools.
Therefore, I expect the junior high to run our defense, not do their own thing! If their "philosophy" is different from ours, they can go find another job. We are a 5-2 team and the junior high will run a 5-2; no questions! I will give them some leeway to adjust to their kids, but we will run the 5-2 with zone coverage behind it. A 9 tech. at the junior high will be taught exactly as the 9 tech. on the varsity is taught. Every lber from 7th through 12th will be taught the exact same reads and responsibilities.
Just my input.
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Post by luvdemlinemen on Aug 21, 2005 10:32:29 GMT -6
As an 8th grade coach, I can see both sides of the argument. You ABSOLUTELY cannot sacrifice fundamentals. That is job 1. But as we are there for the kids and the majority of them are going to play in the local HS's system, using their scheme only puts those kids in a more advantageous position when they are incoming freshman.
No way can an 8th grade team learn an entire varsity playbook...you have to cut it down significantly (for one thing, you just don't get the same number of hours of practice each week), but if our HS runs zone and we are not teaching zone concepts or track blocking (at the very least), we're doing out kids a disservice.
The other thing using the HS system does for a youth program is add consistency. If the kids learn the system in a graduated manner from 3/4 through 8th, they don't have to come in and learn a new system each and every season when they have a new youth coach.
One important note, however, i strongly feel it is the HS head coaches job to work with the youth coaches to teach them the FUNDAMENTAL coaching points of his system and techniques. In my opinion, that is where the ball gets dropped most often.
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Post by Coach Huey on Aug 21, 2005 10:43:24 GMT -6
excellent, excellent post luvdemlineman. you hit it right on the head. if you are in a feeder system then running a completely different offense/defense (with different terms, etc) than the upper levels is not really in the best interest of the players and their future. you are also correct in saying that the varsity coaches need to be active in the development of those younger players...mainly by helping those jh coaches. we treat our staff as one, meaning those coaches at our junior highs are part of our ENTIRE staff. we all discuss what we will do as a team. we work from the "top down". we put together our playbook for the varsity first. then, establish the playbooks for the jv, soph, freshmen, 8th, & 7th grades accordingly. those playbooks all have the exact same terminology. each one includes those base plays/schemes that must be taught. our offense is based on "blocks". a player must master "block A" before we can move on to "block B" and so on. the most basic "blocks" (schemes) are taught at the 7th grade. as a player moves up he begins to build on those blocks. that is how we teach our entire offensive package. for us, if a player doesn't learn certain blocks before he gets to the next level he will be behind the curve. it is vital that every coach is on the same page. we must work together to make sure that what we are doing totally serves the players best interest. for us, that means preparing our players to be varsity athletes. so, we train them for this day from the start of 7th grade until they leave our program.
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Post by luvdemlinemen on Aug 21, 2005 16:00:58 GMT -6
Thanks coach huey. We have a very dysfunctional league, with only one winning team on any level throughout the past 5-6 years, and we're taking steps to try and rectify the situation and teach the kids the HS system (zone & power/counter base). It's hard though with little or no help from the local HS coach, no coaching clinics, meetings, etc.
Myself and our other 8th grade coach attended their camps this spring & summer, but the bulk of their staff gave us the cold shoulder (though the HC is a really nice guy). Other than that, none of our other youth coaches heard word one from the HS program....no wonder their program is slipping badly and losing players to the local private schools or interdistrict transfers.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Aug 21, 2005 16:08:04 GMT -6
It’s been a while since I’ve been on… but thought I would throw another 2 cents in… I agree with all that the purposes (learning how to play, having fun, etc.) are the important thing about youth football. The main thing that I want as a HS head coach is if I say “Iso”, I want an incoming 9th grader to know what that is. Before I got in to this situation- our kids didn’t know basic football terminology, our numbering system (offense or defense) and were basically in a position where they could not play varsity as a 9th grader. Occasionally, I need some of those guys, and it always bothers me when a player who goes on to a Division I scholarship couldn’t play as a freshman because he learned “get in there” as opposed to even two or three of our line calls. Our system is not complicated, but it does take some basic understanding.
If someone else were coaching the JH, I wouldn’t even care if they ran their own formations/plays but I would want: 1) Offensive plays them termed like we term them (ie: calling our Iso a Blast…Blast is different for us) 2) A fullback- we are a FB oriented offense I would not want the JH to be running shotgun trips (no offense to all you guys out there), 3) A defense similar in responsibility- our ends do not contain- so I wouldn’t want the JH team to have wide 9s with contain responsibility, for example. As I said earlier, every situation is different- since all our JH players feed in to ONE team, that makes the most sense to me to have them base out of the HS philosophy. In a situation where youth/JH programs will feed more than one HS, I see nothing wrong with diversity as long as they get fundamentals and learn how to play. Several years ago, when I was at a large school, the freshman coach asked me “how many games do I need to win to keep coaching here”- my answer was “none- as long as everyone learns the game, has fun and gets to play a little. Too many times I’ve seen a late bloomer get discouraged and quit- only to be a junior who is 6’2 200# and can run. You never know when they are little…coach ‘em all (regardless of scheme/system)- but if they all feed one system- it just makes sense to learn the basics of the team they will hopefully all be representing in high school.
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Post by coachgregory on Aug 22, 2005 14:23:28 GMT -6
Split 50,
I stated that If I was in a system that worked that way then by all means I will follow the plan because obvioulsy when I was hired it was explained that way. With that said youth teams and a large number of MS/JRH teams don't follow this pattern as they feed mulitiple HS. So that doesn't make sense for them. Most HS staffs don't bother to work with Youth teams so frankly I don't see the point of using a system that I am not qualified to coach since I don't know how they specifically run their system....that doesn't make a tremondous amount of sense to me and it certianly will not translate into any kind of success for the kids.
With that said if a HS coach was willing to set up time and train myself and my coaches on his system because it would benefit the kids then I might consider it. But if I am coaching 10, 11, 12, or even 13 year olds...I might not as well. Frankly it depends on the success of said HS coach. Why because I know my system works with my kids and I know I can teach that system to my kids and there is no guarntee that said HS head coach will have that job in two to five years it will take for those kids to get there...so why bother to attempt to teach a questionable or unproven system (in my opinion). Now bear in mind I coach a select 6th to 7th grade team in the North Dallas area. My perspective on this is skewed but I have coached MS ball and HS ball. I remember three years of MS ball and a HS coach that said I don't care what you run just give me sound football players that know how to tackle, block, catch, and run. Make sure they know the basics. I also recall coaching in a small high school staff in NC and having the MS coaches run our system because they bought into it.
Those things simply don't work in every equation. Granted the places they do should invest the time for it and see if it will work.
Just my opinion.
Jack
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Post by Split50 on Aug 22, 2005 20:33:35 GMT -6
I think we are confusing youth (Pop Warner,etc.) and junior high. I also coach in Texas and have been doing it for a long time in a number of different schools. I have never yet been in a system where the junior high didn't feed a specific high school. Granted, I have only been in one district that had multiple high schools, but we still had a specific feeder junior high.
We work with our junior high coaches to teach them what we want taught and how we want it taught. Some of the high school coaches also have athletic periods in order to go work with the junior high programs. We don't pay lip service, we do work with the junior high coaches. As an example, I coach every lber in our system from 7th through 12th at some point during the week. Our secondary coach is able to coach every defensive back. We are not with those kids every day, but at least one day a week.
In some of the smaller towns we coached in, the youth league coaches have asked what we wanted them to do and they have worked with us. I guess maybe they care more about preparing those kids to play in their school's system.
The strength of a high school program lies in the continuity of the system, regardless of what that system is. Football players who are being taught the very same terminology, techniques, alignments, and adjustments, from 7th grade to 12th are sure to be more confident and prepared than those that are learning something different at every level.
Since you coach in the DFW area, check what Southlake-Carroll, Ennis, and Celina are doing from 7th through 12th.
I love the "my whistle, my name, my show".
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Post by tog on Aug 22, 2005 20:37:04 GMT -6
in most of the big districts in Texas, where there are a ton of junior highs, the junior highs are broken into feeder schools, and they run what the hs they feed runs
now, some districts like AISD, don't, they suck too
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what offense/defense they use to develop these skills means less to me than the issue of just being able to be an athlete. bothers me that kids can't throw & catch. upsets me to see just how poorly kids are able to control their bodies when in motion (stride, hip level, head, vision, etc.)
