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Post by brophy on Apr 16, 2007 19:49:28 GMT -6
WHAT makes these kids "Studs", though? If its something in the water....let me bottle it. How much does training, mentoring, coaching, and teaching play a part in the DEVELOPMENT of these great players? Its ONE thing to have a natural athlete....its ANOTHER to have a gifted athlete that KNOWS WHAT HE'S DOING
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Post by utchuckd on Apr 16, 2007 19:54:31 GMT -6
For us it's talent level. A lot of times we have 1 or 2 guys that athletically are just head and shoulders above the rest. As much as I like the idea of platooning I think there are some guys that will have to go both ways.
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Post by brophy on Apr 16, 2007 20:06:45 GMT -6
First of all, I'm not going to convince anyone of anything - I'm not a salesman. I'm just giving some feedback based on my experiences. Each of us are different.
For those of you that believe in two-waying your program..........at what point (freshmen, JV, Varsity)...do you begin LOOKING at those 2nd tier guys? I mean REALLY looking at them as legitimate contributors?
Honestly, what is THEIR experience like during a practice, during a game, during a season? Do they really have to be involved?
I'm just asking...and you may not really care about those players, but I'm just wondering when does the coaching staff collectively say, "Hey, Johnny Slapdick could help us at ROLB instead of Bobby Eveready?"
Shoot, if ALL my players were 6'3", 205lbs and ran a 4.5 40, I'd have a pretty easy time "coaching". Its easy teaching the honor roll students....
AGAIN, if 2-4 guys happen to play both ways, that doesn't mean you AREN'T platooning......if you have philosophically decided to have a separate OFFENSE & DEFENSE, then you are platooning .
For myself, the positives of platooning, I see far out-weigh the negatives. I see two-way as a quick-fix, short-sighted mentality to program building (win now). Now each of us have our own decisions to make, and I may be wrong in my opinions (it wouldn't be the first).
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Post by brophy on Apr 16, 2007 20:35:21 GMT -6
If I ran a company and made all of my drinking buddies my senior officers and to h_ll with everyone else.
How many hours would you work overtime, how hard would you try to get those projects done, how long would you delude yourself with 'climbing the ladder', how much night-school would you be attending?
Then I, as the COO, am always biotching and moaning that nobody has any intiative and the only guys I can trust are my drinking buddies....when in truth, I CREATED THE PROBLEM TO BEGIN WITH......
how hard and how long is a 14- 17 year old kid going to bust his hump for you when he knows he'll never get a sniff of the field so long as Tyrone Allstater is out for football, because no matter what, he'll never be the athlete Tyrone is?
Do we think that kids just magically quit football during the Varsity years and we wonder why we NEVER have any athletes to use? The problem is systemic, it doesn't just happen overnight.
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Post by utchuckd on Apr 16, 2007 20:54:48 GMT -6
Hey brophy- why don't you just come out and tell us how you feel? just kidding man. You make some excellent points that I agree with. Oh, and don't kid yourself, you're a heck of a salesman.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2007 20:56:09 GMT -6
First of all, coaches, great discussion so far. This honestly might be the best thread I've read on here and I'm being very serious when I say that!
I'll just throw this out there--Fred Bouchard of Harrisonville MO swears by platooning. His reasons sound a lot like several already mentioned on here--focused reps, increased playing time for more players, etc. In fact, our staff visited him back in November and the first thing his staff does in scouting is ID the other team's starters. Coach Bouchard feels if the other team has more than three two way starters, his team wins based on that alone. I know not all will buy that, but that's his theory and they have won three straight state titles. If you're worried about numbers (small school problem) he suggests starting with just the lineman--put your best athletes on the Dline, coach up the Oline, and watch the progress!!
Just thought I should share what a great coach told me on the subject.
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Post by brophy on Apr 16, 2007 20:59:35 GMT -6
there are at least FIVE threads in the general section about the + / - of platooning. If you're entertaining the thought, you might want to check them out. That being said, I can't coach for you and you can't coach for me - we all have to make decisions that are best for ourselves. I'm fairly certain there are no "right" or "wrong" answers in football. now, in response to some of the original post......
'if your 3rd & 4th team players now become 2nd string.....'
Okay, the 4th string player would see exactly HOW much practice reps during the season?
---Hey, I've coached two-way guys, and I'll be honest, those 3rd & 4th string guys got about 1 out of 40 reps when the season hit.
Now if you know you've only got 5 or 6 linebackers to coach up, you can spend a lot more time with each one, AND cross-training them (at more than one position) becomes that much easier (to have the backups fill in at any one of those spots)....mainly, because I'm FORCED to spend time with the kid. So the kid, who would've gotten maybe 2-5% of the snaps in a both-way system, now gets 15-20% of the snaps in a two platoon system
Take for example a 4-3 defense....three linebacker spots your starters are bonafide
2nd tier guys not so much.
well, instead of 2 studs and one guy you coach up......now you have maybe 8 guys (instead of 17 guys who don't have another position) at linebacker....so instead of trying to divide reps amongst so many guys....now you can get 1) a lot of reps 2) not many guys hanging around being distracted (zoning out) 3) brief breathers for your starters 4) drill time goes quickly (no kids standing around waiting their turn) 5) you actually are able to have one-on-one time with those deficient players and spend more quality time with instructions
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Post by utchuckd on Apr 16, 2007 21:01:33 GMT -6
Good points. We're just now getting a jv program really in gear and this is something we asked ourselves when figuring out we really need it and how to set it up.
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 16, 2007 21:08:59 GMT -6
I think Brophy summed it up by saying that there are really only two reasons to NOT set up a platooning system.
1--not enough coaches to effectively work a platoon system. 2--not enough players to play 22 different players.
thats about it.
You will always have 6 or 7 kids who probably aren't as good at certain positons as others would be if they played two ways. YOu don't think Brian Urlacher could start at TE for the Bears? Could Jeremy Shockey start at LB for most teams? Don't you think Mike Vick would probably have been one of the 4 top DB's at VT? Now, the question you need to ask is, would Brian Urlacher be as good a MLB for the Bears, if he was also starting at TE. Would Shockey be as good a TE if he was also having to drop hook/curl when not running them. Would Vick have been as good a QB if he was busy covering routes instead of throwing to them.
And those are the cream of the crop.... so OBVIOUSLY at the HS level, you are going to have your 6 or 7 kids, even on state championship, nationally reknowned programs, that would be both your best WR and your best DB. That would be your BEST LINEMAN period. That would be your best ISO blocker and best at taking on the ISO. That would be your best lock up corner and yoru best option qb. I don't think anyone is arguing that.
I just don't see how you can't really work at commiting your team (if #'s 1 and 2 above don't preclude it) to trying to two platooon. I just don't see how you can build a PROGRAM with the attitude "ok I found my best 13 guys. The rest of you grab some of those arm shields", because EVEN IF THAT ISN'T YOUR MANTRA (and I know it isn't, and all the kids get coached up in INdy and such) that is what the kids will see/hear.
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Post by brophy on Apr 16, 2007 21:19:03 GMT -6
lets say you platoon THIS YEAR and just looking at this from a Varsity standpoint......
Year ONE may be rough....and you WILL get tons of opposition (aww...they would've won won 3 more games if the tailback played DE and FS!!)
But lets say you have 22 starters......... 13 seniors 8 juniors 1 sophomore
okay, you graduate 13 seniors, boo-hoo.....
but now you have 9 kids with Varsity experience (instead of maybe only 3 because those senior studs would've hogged all the PT). Imagine how much more confident you'd be heading into the off-season knowing that you have SOME questions answered about your returning class as well as creating more opportunities for your Freshmen & Sophomore athletes to see the field.
If you have a green SS that is a junior, maybe you have a little more confidence in turning him into a MLB his senior year (because you've seen what he can do, because he's gained confidence with the opportunity to see what Varsity ball is all about.....very little question marks).
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Post by utchuckd on Apr 16, 2007 21:28:28 GMT -6
How far down do you platoon? JV obviously. What about freshmen?
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Post by khalfie on Apr 16, 2007 21:36:22 GMT -6
Not fair... you gentlemen are changing the conversation... and as a member of this coaching fraternity, I believe it my duty to change your minds. ;D How much does training, mentoring, coaching, and teaching play a part in the DEVELOPMENT of these great players?Training doesn't change... mentoring doesn't change, development is what it is... I'm not defining who the 14-16 kids are... they are telling me who deserves to be on the field. Practice routine doesn't change... Special Teams - Best 11 Individuals - Searching for best 11 Group - 7 on 7 / Inside - Again Serching for the best 11 Team - Working that best 11 together for cohesion and verification... against whom? Well those same kids you wanted to start... those same kids that will have ample opportunity to step up and take a spot... How is this not the way to do things? Correct me if I'm wrong... but Platooners... want to take some of those good kids and split them up evenly, so that I have two moderate teams, instead of one superior unit? Tell the truth, it doesn't sound write when I type it, does it? Honestly, what is THEIR experience like during a practice, during a game, during a season? Do they really have to be involved? I'm just asking...and you may not really care about those players, but I'm just wondering when does the coaching staff collectively say, "Hey, Johnny Slapdick could help us at ROLB instead of Bobby Eveready?"Hill Larry... I like those names... but how did we get to, I don't care about my kids, because I don't want to Platoon? I'm just sayin' AGAIN, if 2-4 guys happen to play both ways, that doesn't mean you AREN'T platooning......if you have philosophically decided to have a separate OFFENSE & DEFENSE, then you are platooning .Well if that's all it takes... then I am a proponent of Platooning... but, in my case I have about 6 to 7 kids going both ways... but I am comitted to getting as many of the best kids on the field as possible. If I ran a company and made all of my drinking buddies my senior officers and to h_ll with everyone else.First and foremost... what are they drinking? And didn't we already establish Coaches can't be friends? ;D How many hours would you work overtime, how hard would you try to get those projects done, how long would you delude yourself with 'climbing the ladder', how much night-school would you be attending?
Then I, as the COO, am always biotching and moaning that nobody has any intiative and the only guys I can trust are my drinking buddies....when in truth, I CREATED THE PROBLEM TO BEGIN WITH......Now this is a good analogy, but again, you didn't carry out the scenerio... 1. These drinking buddies, also happen to be the 11 hardest working employees in the building... there are another 50 employees, but these 11 have identified themselves as the blue chippers. 2. Super Big Hubba Bubba account has been brought to the table... who do I have work on it? Do I get my best 11... or do I take 5 of my best, put them with 6 others and hope for the best? Do I put the future of my company in the hand of some employees I've trained just like the rest, but haven't shown the same desire, persistence, courage, comittment and confidence? Do I give them the project that makes or breaks the corporation? Gentlemen... And these will be my closing arguments for the night... The theory behind Platooning intrigues me... on the one hand, it seems like the no brainer... more kids play, fun is had by all... However, this isn't SOCCER... that's right... I said it! This isn't SOCCER... this is football. A man's sport... we define manhood as being accountable and responsible. Be who you say you are, and do what you say you are going to do. Nothing is given in football... it is earned... it is the paradigm of life... I have 11 positions on offense... the best men get it... same as on defense... if you are not the best, I would be doing you a disservice giving it to you... Earn the right... Everyone has the right to play on my teams... but you have to earn the right to start... and if you start... you know you have earned the right. I have one daughter... only the best is allowed to marry her... there can only be 1 starter... he must be the best! I thank you gentlemen... and good night!
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Post by brophy on Apr 16, 2007 21:40:35 GMT -6
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 17, 2007 19:44:28 GMT -6
I don't think the idea of platooning has anything to do with being "a man's game", or "earning the right" to play. It isn't about putting kids out there who can't play.
It is a methodology used to improve your team. The core concept is that by setting up your program to two-platoon, you IMPROVE your team and your program more than you do if you simply identify the top 12 or 13 athletes and have them play. The theory being that by using increased reps, more detailed coaching and more rest time, you actually have TWO players who are as good as if not better than the ONE player who would play two positions. Better for the TEAM...not necessarily at winning that one position, but winning the team game.
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