|
Post by bobgoodman on Oct 29, 2019 19:24:04 GMT -6
I am absolutely shocked that the most common answer isn't taking a safety. Most notably for the 2 responses from wingtol and cs . This was us. We punted and punter returner got a decent return to our 26. Our kicker consistently puts the ball to the goalline or the 5 every time. Kicking from the 20, puts the ball landing around the opponent's 25 and heck even with a decent return they start in their territory. IMHO punting is "bad football". Even if you haven't repped this scenario, how hard is it to tell your punter to run out of the back of the endzone? I can do that from the sideline. Very very surprised at the results thus far in the poll. Duece Punting from the 10 vs kicking off from the 20 isn't going to be a huge difference for us. Actually our punter (who is the same guy as our kicker) is more effective punting the ball than striking deep kickoffs, and our Kick coverage unit, lets just say makes you feel like your on pins and needles every time that fearsome group of killers takes the field. Not to mention 13-7 is a 6 point game, you give up a safety and now a TD beats you, while rare a blocked ex pt or shanked ex pt in a 13-7 game keeps it tied. Additionally if you do kick off and they drive the field and score the game clock is probably near zero. If they block the punt, return the punt for a TD, have a big return and a short field, or get the ball at the +40 and then score the chance of you having clock left for your offense are much higher. I think its close, if you have a guy that can flat out strike the ball and drive it and you feel good about covering a kick, then safety is right. If you don't have those things or your punter is pretty good punt it out of there and play D. But both NCAA and Federation rules allow a punt to be used for a free kick from a safety. That wasn't always so.
|
|
|
Post by bleefb on Oct 29, 2019 23:01:31 GMT -6
How did that guy block the punt? I have watched it 5 times and each time it looks like there is no way he is going to block it but he sure does. Also, what year is this? Looks mid 90's??? Ok, just watched the slow motion. It was a bad kick. He kicked it right into that guy's gut. Also, saw the year, 1999. Watch the offensive styles in that game. Guys heads will explode now days trying to comprehend it LOL The defenses are a thread all it it self.
I love the giant shoulder pads on everybody.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2019 5:59:25 GMT -6
So the two variables mentioned about good offense and good kicker were not added to my OP. Yes their offense was good, very hard to defend and we had worked our a$$es off to defend them. Gave up 68 yd TD pass on 2nd play of game b/c of mental error and they don't cross midfield but twice the rest of the game with drives ending at our 47 and 40 respectively. They had a very good kicker (good from 40-45 easily) who was 5-6 on the year w/FG's (perfect 3-3 over 40 yds this season). We were very much being a bend but don't break defense (which we've been all year) so they were pretty much guaranteed at least 2 first downs.
So, to tell you our story, we decide to punt, which they get a decent return and the drive starts at our 26. It takes them 6 plays to score and leaves us with 24 seconds left to go in the game. I don't think that happens if we take the safety and kickoff to them. Again, just my take, but having lived through it I'd like to know, not what the right decision was, but the "more correct" decision. We lose 14-13. Plenty of what-if's in this one for it come down to one decision but IMO this was the culmination of several bad decisions on the night that led us to the outcome. I get it, way too many variables to put in a poll, but I just wanted to see what most thought.
Duece
|
|
|
Post by blb on Oct 30, 2019 8:29:04 GMT -6
deuce, only netting 16 yards on your punt was a problem (obviously). Also I suspect not having any time outs left was one of the "several bad decisions" you referenced.
|
|
|
Post by stilltryin on Oct 30, 2019 10:11:21 GMT -6
I don't coach with a "what could possibly go wrong mentality" normally and certainly not with that much time left. Do you not weigh "risk and reward?" If you do, then "what could possibly go wrong" is the risk side of the equation.
|
|
|
Post by bignose on Oct 30, 2019 10:19:50 GMT -6
The question that begs to be asked is: Why did you punt to them so they could return it?
I'd have settled for 25-30 yards with the ball kicked out of bounds.
It's hard to make the call on the info provided without knowing all of the variables available.
BTW, hindsight is 20/20.
|
|
|
Post by CoachMikeJudy on Oct 30, 2019 10:28:11 GMT -6
2005- exact scenario but the score was 13-7 and we were on our own 3. Took the safety. 13-9, kicked off and defense held.
Take the safety and play D.
***EDIT- it was 13-7
|
|
|
Post by gccwolverine on Oct 30, 2019 10:29:47 GMT -6
2005- exact scenario but the score was 13-6 and we were on our own 3. Took the safety. 13-8, kicked off and defense held. Take the safety and play D. No way I'm taking the safety up 7. Worst that happens is they tie us, I'm not going to give them 2 kick it off have them drive the field and score to beat us.
|
|
|
Post by CoachMikeJudy on Oct 30, 2019 10:40:28 GMT -6
2005- exact scenario but the score was 13-6 and we were on our own 3. Took the safety. 13-8, kicked off and defense held. Take the safety and play D. No way I'm taking the safety up 7. Worst that happens is they tie us, I'm not going to give them 2 kick it off have them drive the field and score to beat us. What if you had a great chance of having that punt blocked for a TD? Also, what if your defense had held them scoreless since their first score? And their defense had crushed us outside of 2 broken play TDs? Essentially, we looked at it like this- neither offense could score. Sloppy wet field...played on a Monday after a hurricane hit. They're the #1 team in the state with 9 FBS commits on defense, all of which are on punt block team. For us, it was not even a question. They got the ball on their own 30 and never moved it to seal the game.
|
|
|
Post by fantom on Oct 30, 2019 10:40:42 GMT -6
2005- exact scenario but the score was 13-6 and we were on our own 3. Took the safety. 13-8, kicked off and defense held. Take the safety and play D. No way I'm taking the safety up 7. Worst that happens is they tie us, I'm not going to give them 2 kick it off have them drive the field and score to beat us. No, the worst that could happen was that the opponent scores a TD then kicks the PAT to win 14-13, which is what actually happened.
|
|
|
Post by gccwolverine on Oct 30, 2019 11:02:19 GMT -6
No way I'm taking the safety up 7. Worst that happens is they tie us, I'm not going to give them 2 kick it off have them drive the field and score to beat us. No, the worst that could happen was that the opponent scores a TD then kicks the PAT to win 14-13, which is what actually happened. My comment was directed to the gentleman who posted the 13-6 scenario, not to the original scenario.
|
|
|
Post by fantom on Oct 30, 2019 11:25:05 GMT -6
No, the worst that could happen was that the opponent scores a TD then kicks the PAT to win 14-13, which is what actually happened. My comment was directed to the gentleman who posted the 13-6 scenario, not to the original scenario. I didn't vote on the OP because it's tough. That's one reason I'm glad that I wasn't a HC. Decisions like that are what the big bucks are for.
|
|
|
Post by joelee on Oct 30, 2019 12:34:01 GMT -6
I don't coach with a "what could possibly go wrong mentality" normally and certainly not with that much time left. Do you not weigh "risk and reward?" If you do, then "what could possibly go wrong" is the risk side of the equation. Fortune favors the bold.-Julius Caesar No risk it no biscuit.- Bruce Arians You play to win the game- Herm Rdwards Offensively and game management situations i'm going to be a go get it type person. Its worked out.
|
|
|
Post by blb on Oct 30, 2019 12:40:00 GMT -6
Another consideration for me in deuce 's scenario would've been this: After opponents returned punt to -26, even if you are a "Bend but don't break defense": When the bad guys get to the "Red Zone" (and -26 is pretty close), you'd better have the ability to blitz them and put them in a long yardage situation. Maybe twice. Even if they score vs. your pressure, at least you get the ball back sooner-more time on the clock.
|
|
|
Post by fantom on Oct 30, 2019 14:39:54 GMT -6
Do you not weigh "risk and reward?" If you do, then "what could possibly go wrong" is the risk side of the equation. Fortune favors the bold.-Julius Caesar No risk it no biscuit.- Bruce Arians You play to win the game- Herm Rdwards Offensively and game management situations i'm going to be a go get it type person. Its worked out. "Let's keep throwing the ball". Atlanta Falcons HC in the Super Bowl.
|
|
|
Post by bleefb on Oct 30, 2019 18:39:34 GMT -6
Do you not weigh "risk and reward?" If you do, then "what could possibly go wrong" is the risk side of the equation. Fortune favors the bold.-Julius Caesar No risk it no biscuit.- Bruce Arians You play to win the game- Herm Rdwards Offensively and game management situations i'm going to be a go get it type person. Its worked out. Julius Caesar-Murdered by his followers Bruce Arians-Fired by Arizona Herm Edwards-Fired from the Chiefs, out of coaching for a decade
Just saying.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2019 6:58:12 GMT -6
I just see a lot of moving parts in the punt scenario vs. the KO from the 20 scenario. Punting requires the snap and protection be good as well as the coverage. Punting from your own endzone usually requires you go to a tight punt formation which doesn't allow you to get guys in coverage quickly. The KO from your 20 yard line does not have these factors involved in them. My hats off to our opponent as they didn't go fast once they got the ball, they simply huddled every time. They only used one of their 2 timeouts in that span. Anyhow, so far this has been a very good discussion, but it hasn't changed my mind. I would still take the safety rather than punt.
Duece
|
|
|
Post by silkyice on Oct 31, 2019 7:30:04 GMT -6
I just see a lot of moving parts in the punt scenario vs. the KO from the 20 scenario. Punting requires the snap and protection be good as well as the coverage. Punting from your own endzone usually requires you go to a tight punt formation which doesn't allow you to get guys in coverage quickly. The KO from your 20 yard line does not have these factors involved in them. My hats off to our opponent as they didn't go fast once they got the ball, they simply huddled every time. They only used one of their 2 timeouts in that span. Anyhow, so far this has been a very good discussion, but it hasn't changed my mind. I would still take the safety rather than punt. Duece I think that is a good and certainly acceptable decision. Let's go further with this. What are your limits (approximately) here? Meaning what yard line and what time makes this a regular punt. For me 4+ minutes and 10 yard line would be a punt decision. 2 minutes and 3 yard line are a definite safety decision. So in between those two numbers and two variable lies my break even point. But 4+ and 10 you are safety. What about 5+ and 15? And etc.? Note: I think you should regular punt from the 10. Why go tight punt here? I think you should only change to tight punt when the snap to punt distance changes.
|
|
|
Post by joelee on Oct 31, 2019 8:57:06 GMT -6
Fortune favors the bold.-Julius Caesar No risk it no biscuit.- Bruce Arians You play to win the game- Herm Rdwards Offensively and game management situations i'm going to be a go get it type person. Its worked out. "Let's keep throwing the ball". Atlanta Falcons HC in the Super Bowl. Good for you. I didn't ask you to change your opinion nor did I criticize it. Like I said. Its worked out. Check my avatar.
|
|
|
Post by joelee on Oct 31, 2019 8:57:20 GMT -6
Fortune favors the bold.-Julius Caesar No risk it no biscuit.- Bruce Arians You play to win the game- Herm Rdwards Offensively and game management situations i'm going to be a go get it type person. Its worked out. Julius Caesar-Murdered by his followers Bruce Arians-Fired by Arizona Herm Edwards-Fired from the Chiefs, out of coaching for a decade
Just saying.
Good for you. I didn't ask you to change your opinion nor did I criticize it. Like I said. Its worked out. Check my avatar.
|
|
|
Post by fantom on Oct 31, 2019 9:19:46 GMT -6
"Let's keep throwing the ball". Atlanta Falcons HC in the Super Bowl. Good for you. I didn't ask you to change your opinion nor did I criticize it. Like I said. Its worked out. Check my avatar. Actually, I didn't give an opinion. Congratulations on your championships.
|
|
|
Post by bignose on Oct 31, 2019 10:12:12 GMT -6
Up three or more, inside of the -22, under 2 minutes.........
That's about my thought process for safety vs. punt.
Not counting the other myriad variables.
other teams' timeouts remaining wind direction our punter our Snapper, our protection and coverage team, our kickoff coverage (punt vs. kickoff the tee) Their return team our defense their offense their kicker
|
|
|
Post by joelee on Oct 31, 2019 11:15:09 GMT -6
Fortune favors the bold.-Julius Caesar No risk it no biscuit.- Bruce Arians You play to win the game- Herm Rdwards Offensively and game management situations i'm going to be a go get it type person. Its worked out. Julius Caesar-Murdered by his followers Bruce Arians-Fired by Arizona Herm Edwards-Fired from the Chiefs, out of coaching for a decade
Just saying.
It would also be great if your post was actually accurate. Julius Caesar conquered Gaul, won a civil war, ended the roman republic which led to an empire, stabbed in the back not by followers but jealousy. Bruce Arians retired from the Cardinals. Unretired to coach in Tampa Currently 5th highest ppg in the NFL. Herm Edwards currently head coach at Arizona state 5-3.
|
|
|
Post by joelee on Oct 31, 2019 11:23:15 GMT -6
Is there a bit of an attitude here that is different between offensive head coaches vs defensive head coaches? What I mean is are offensive head coaches less likely to take the standard approach to punt and let the defense win or lose the game on this drive?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2019 12:01:07 GMT -6
Is there a bit of an attitude here that is different between offensive head coaches vs defensive head coaches? What I mean is are offensive head coaches less likely to take the standard approach to punt and let the defense win or lose the game on this drive? That's a real good question. HC is an offensive guy. Me, the defensive guy. He obviously wins out b/c of seniority but I think he's reconsidering his decision! Lol. Duece
|
|
|
Post by fantom on Oct 31, 2019 13:02:43 GMT -6
Is there a bit of an attitude here that is different between offensive head coaches vs defensive head coaches? What I mean is are offensive head coaches less likely to take the standard approach to punt and let the defense win or lose the game on this drive? Maybe. I was a DC but I'm confident that none of the HC's that I worked for would keep the offense on the field on 4th and 4 on our own 10.
|
|
|
Post by blb on Oct 31, 2019 13:18:29 GMT -6
Is there a bit of an attitude here that is different between offensive head coaches vs defensive head coaches? What I mean is are offensive head coaches less likely to take the standard approach to punt and let the defense win or lose the game on this drive? Maybe. I was a DC but I'm confident that none of the HC's that I worked for would keep the offense on the field on 4th and 4 on our own 10.
Offense just had three plays to get a 1st Down and didn't (gained only six yards).
Why would HC believe they would be able to gain four on one play now?
If he had a play he was sure that would've gotten 1st Down on previous three he should've called it then.
|
|
|
Post by fantom on Oct 31, 2019 13:26:00 GMT -6
Maybe. I was a DC but I'm confident that none of the HC's that I worked for would keep the offense on the field on 4th and 4 on our own 10.
Offense just had three plays to get a 1st Down and didn't (gained only six yards).
Why would HC believe they would be able to gain four on one play now?
If he had a play he was sure that would've gotten 1st Down on previous three he should've called it then.
And the score was 13-6 so it's not like the offense has been moving the ball all over the field.
|
|
|
Post by blb on Oct 31, 2019 13:55:36 GMT -6
Offense just had three plays to get a 1st Down and didn't (gained only six yards).
Why would HC believe they would be able to gain four on one play now?
If he had a play he was sure that would've gotten 1st Down on previous three he should've called it then.
And the score was 13-6 so it's not like the offense has been moving the ball all over the field.
As I posted somewhere earlier - TDs have to count 7 (not just 6).
If score was 14-6 - how different would that have made it?
Missed Extra Points have changed the outcomes of many games and even seasons.
If you don't coach Kicking Game well enough you may lose because of it, and not just because of whether to punt or not late in game.
|
|
|
Post by joelee on Oct 31, 2019 18:18:04 GMT -6
Is there a bit of an attitude here that is different between offensive head coaches vs defensive head coaches? What I mean is are offensive head coaches less likely to take the standard approach to punt and let the defense win or lose the game on this drive? Maybe. I was a DC but I'm confident that none of the HC's that I worked for would keep the offense on the field on 4th and 4 on our own 10. Keeping the offense on the field wasn't an option.
|
|