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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 6:36:38 GMT -6
Situational Analysis: 4th down from your own 10 yard line, 4 min+ left in game. You have 0 timeouts, opp has 2. Punter avg. is 35 yds at best. Kicker has good leg, but KO team just gave up a long return on prior KO. You lead 13-7, other team has good offense but defense has been stopping them fairly well (just had goalline stand on prior possession). Your offense has struggled to move the ball at times. What do you do?
Duece
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Post by coachcb on Oct 28, 2019 6:54:55 GMT -6
If our defense has been playing well, we're not going to take any momentum away from them. Punt the ball and turn 'em loose. That defense is going to end up back ion the field, one way or another, and we them thinking they can get the job done.
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Post by bignose on Oct 28, 2019 7:15:05 GMT -6
4th and how long? If under 4th and 5 we may try to do a "freeze punt" call.
Call the cadence and try to draw them offsides. If we jump it's only half the distance and we punt.
I don't think I'd take a safety with that much time left in the game.
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Post by Defcord on Oct 28, 2019 8:05:52 GMT -6
Find religion...
We would punt and play defense. We have gotten this far with this strategy; can't find a reason to get off script at this point. If it was a one score game but much higher score, then I might change my thoughts.
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Post by bobgoodman on Oct 28, 2019 8:17:48 GMT -6
Have the punter standing behind your goal line. If the defense comes to block the punt, he concedes the safety. If they play to return it, he punts. Do not hurry the kick.
But I'd suggest you do this only if you're used to snapping the ball more than 10 yards.
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Post by bignose on Oct 28, 2019 10:27:17 GMT -6
Another, outside of the box alternative is use the "Fake Punt-Quick Kick."
Offense lines up in a tight punt formation. Punter at 12 yards of depth, personal protector at 5. On "Shift" the Personal protector moves up to a position behind the center like a QB. He places his hands on the outside of the snapper's butt cheeks, and takes a very wide stance. The punter scoots up to 6 1/2 yards deep (no longer a scrimmage kick). The snapper passes the ball between the legs of the PP to the punter, who kicks a rugby style end over end kick.
What happens is the receiving team, thinking that a fake is going to take place, will rush their deep backs up for coverage. With nobody back to field the ball or return the punt, we hope to get an extra long roll on the kick.
The last time we ran this (about 2009)was in a State Playoff game, the defensive backs nearly broke their ankles trying to get back to get to the ball. We got about 50 yard roll out this. We were on the 15 yard line at the time. It's one of those plays that you practice once or twice every couple of weeks and keep it on the back burner until the right time.
Of course another alternative would be to Quick Kick (especially if you are a Gun team ) on third down.
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Post by bobgoodman on Oct 28, 2019 11:11:19 GMT -6
Another, outside of the box alternative is use the "Fake Punt-Quick Kick." Offense lines up in a tight punt formation. Punter at 12 yards of depth, personal protector at 5. On "Shift" the Personal protector moves up to a position behind the center like a QB. He places his hands on the outside of the snapper's butt cheeks, and takes a very wide stance. The punter scoots up to 6 1/2 yards deep (no longer a scrimmage kick). The snapper passes the ball between the legs of the PP to the punter, who kicks a rugby style end over end kick. What happens is the receiving team, thinking that a fake is going to take place, will rush their deep backs up for coverage. With nobody back to field the ball or return the punt, we hope to get an extra long roll on the kick. But who'd bite on that when you're 4th-and-whatever on your own 10 and leading?
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Post by CS on Oct 28, 2019 11:11:25 GMT -6
How reliable is your deep snapper?
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Post by bignose on Oct 28, 2019 11:24:20 GMT -6
But who'd bite on that when you're 4th-and-whatever on your own 10 and leading? They are High School aged kids. You'd be surprised how stupid they can be when under duress.
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Post by carookie on Oct 28, 2019 11:31:38 GMT -6
This gets me thinking about the recent 'analytics post'. Analytics would argue that momentum is not real, and to evaluate each situation by the perceived outcome:
With 4 min left, no timeouts, and opponent has 2 tos, would you rather be:
Up 13-7 and opponent has the ball on your 40 or up 13-9 and opponent has the ball on their own 25
Looking at it that way, most of us would choose the second option, which of course is the same as taking the safety. That being written, the variables of HS football muddy up the decision a bit. Taking a safety from your own 10 may not compute in the mind of some high school kids (especially without a timeout to explain). Kid could mistakenly get tackled at the 1...then you are in trouble.
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Post by coachddwebb on Oct 28, 2019 14:33:33 GMT -6
We had this almost exact situation this last Friday. 1st and 10 on our 15 with 1:38 left in the game, up 12 to 7.
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Post by CS on Oct 28, 2019 17:43:25 GMT -6
Either way they have to score a touchdown to beat you. I’m taking the safety and making them drive the field.
If you choose to punt it gives them a short field and leaves the defense very little room for error.
If they have to drive you can make a mistake or two and maybe it doesn’t hurt as bad
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Post by wingtol on Oct 28, 2019 19:23:00 GMT -6
We lost a state championship game on a blocked punt in almost this exact situation in 2000. Still get asked why we didn’t take a safety.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 7:29:50 GMT -6
I am absolutely shocked that the most common answer isn't taking a safety. Most notably for the 2 responses from wingtol and cs. This was us. We punted and punter returner got a decent return to our 26. Our kicker consistently puts the ball to the goalline or the 5 every time. Kicking from the 20, puts the ball landing around the opponent's 25 and heck even with a decent return they start in their territory. IMHO punting is "bad football". Even if you haven't repped this scenario, how hard is it to tell your punter to run out of the back of the endzone? I can do that from the sideline. Very very surprised at the results thus far in the poll. Duece
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Post by stilltryin on Oct 29, 2019 9:07:44 GMT -6
Have to agree with duece. My first reaction when reading the original post was to punt it and play defense. But when I weighed the likelihood of "what could possibly go wrong" ... you could get a big return either way. But taking the safety and kicking off takes a bad snap, fumbled snap, blocked punt or shanked punt (all very real possibilities) out of the equation.
Take the safety and kick off ... then play defense.
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Post by bignose on Oct 29, 2019 9:29:00 GMT -6
I am absolutely shocked that the most common answer isn't taking a safety. Most notably for the 2 responses from wingtol and cs . This was us. We punted and punter returner got a decent return to our 26. Our kicker consistently puts the ball to the goalline or the 5 every time. Kicking from the 20, puts the ball landing around the opponent's 25 and heck even with a decent return they start in their territory. IMHO punting is "bad football". Even if you haven't repped this scenario, how hard is it to tell your punter to run out of the back of the endzone? I can do that from the sideline. Very very surprised at the results thus far in the poll. Duece Agreed. But we have seldom had a kicker that can do what your kicker can. If we kickoff from the twenty, the offense would get the ball around midfield. If we punt 35 yards, from the 10, the net result is almost the same. Plus, if we punt, the clock keeps running If we take the safety, the clock stops.We lost a game because we took the delay of game penalty and the defense was able to put it's punt block team in instead of their regular defense, with the clock stopped. We were on the 23 with 30 seconds left and the clock was running. The delay penalty causes the clock to stop. If we get the kick off without stopping the clock, they have maybe 15 seconds to score from midfield. They recovered the blocked punt on the 2 with 10 seconds left. And scored. We should have taken the safety. And yeah, more bad stuff could happen if we punt, bad snap, etc. If there was under 2 minutes left, yes, I would definitely take the safety.
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Post by gccwolverine on Oct 29, 2019 9:59:19 GMT -6
I am absolutely shocked that the most common answer isn't taking a safety. Most notably for the 2 responses from wingtol and cs . This was us. We punted and punter returner got a decent return to our 26. Our kicker consistently puts the ball to the goalline or the 5 every time. Kicking from the 20, puts the ball landing around the opponent's 25 and heck even with a decent return they start in their territory. IMHO punting is "bad football". Even if you haven't repped this scenario, how hard is it to tell your punter to run out of the back of the endzone? I can do that from the sideline. Very very surprised at the results thus far in the poll. Duece Punting from the 10 vs kicking off from the 20 isn't going to be a huge difference for us. Actually our punter (who is the same guy as our kicker) is more effective punting the ball than striking deep kickoffs, and our Kick coverage unit, lets just say makes you feel like your on pins and needles every time that fearsome group of killers takes the field. Not to mention 13-7 is a 6 point game, you give up a safety and now a TD beats you, while rare a blocked ex pt or shanked ex pt in a 13-7 game keeps it tied. Additionally if you do kick off and they drive the field and score the game clock is probably near zero. If they block the punt, return the punt for a TD, have a big return and a short field, or get the ball at the +40 and then score the chance of you having clock left for your offense are much higher. I think its close, if you have a guy that can flat out strike the ball and drive it and you feel good about covering a kick, then safety is right. If you don't have those things or your punter is pretty good punt it out of there and play D. I'm all for the making decisions that are unique but increase implied win equity too btw. Just 2 weeks ago we pulled the ole "let em score" on Defense when down 1 with 2:55 left and no timeouts. Didn't work, our kid muffed the insuing pop up kick but, if he catches it we have the ball on the -45 with 2:40 left and a chance to tie down 8.
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Post by silkyice on Oct 29, 2019 11:06:08 GMT -6
I am absolutely shocked that the most common answer isn't taking a safety. Most notably for the 2 responses from wingtol and cs . This was us. We punted and punter returner got a decent return to our 26. Our kicker consistently puts the ball to the goalline or the 5 every time. Kicking from the 20, puts the ball landing around the opponent's 25 and heck even with a decent return they start in their territory. IMHO punting is "bad football". Even if you haven't repped this scenario, how hard is it to tell your punter to run out of the back of the endzone? I can do that from the sideline. Very very surprised at the results thus far in the poll. Duece Punting from the 10 vs kicking off from the 20 isn't going to be a huge difference for us. Actually our punter (who is the same guy as our kicker) is more effective punting the ball than striking deep kickoffs, and our Kick coverage unit, lets just say makes you feel like your on pins and needles every time that fearsome group of killers takes the field. Not to mention 13-7 is a 6 point game, you give up a safety and now a TD beats you, while rare a blocked ex pt or shanked ex pt in a 13-7 game keeps it tied. Additionally if you do kick off and they drive the field and score the game clock is probably near zero. If they block the punt, return the punt for a TD, have a big return and a short field, or get the ball at the +40 and then score the chance of you having clock left for your offense are much higher. I think its close, if you have a guy that can flat out strike the ball and drive it and you feel good about covering a kick, then safety is right. If you don't have those things or your punter is pretty good punt it out of there and play D. I'm all for the making decisions that are unique but increase implied win equity too btw. Just 2 weeks ago we pulled the ole "let em score" on Defense when down 1 with 2:55 left and no timeouts. Didn't work, our kid muffed the insuing pop up kick but, if he catches it we have the ball on the -45 with 2:40 left and a chance to tie down 8. The punt will take place around the goalline with a rush and the coverage guys having to block first. The kickoff can still be a punt after a safety and will be at the twenty (20 yards more) with the coverage guys sprinting full speed. I don't have a problem with the safety. If I was going to do it, I would attempt to draw them offsides and take a delay. Burn as much time as I could and then run around in the endzone close to the endline burning so more time and tell our offensive guys to not block but to tackle the rushers. We actually practice this once a week. My take on the whole situation is that it is a little early for endgame scenarios and that the 10 is still far out enough. If there was under 2 minutes, definitely take safety. If the ball was inside the 5, or worse, inside the 2, them definitely take a safety. 10 and 4+ minutes left and your kickoff team just gave up a big return last time (punt or not), not sure safety is cut and dried. Something to think about, but I will be honest, safety is not what would enter my mind right there unless less time and even worse yardline.
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Post by joelee on Oct 29, 2019 11:26:03 GMT -6
I don't coach with a "what could possibly go wrong mentality" normally and certainly not with that much time left.
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Post by blb on Oct 29, 2019 11:47:40 GMT -6
Lot of good points made on both sides here.
Also a lot of variables.
We practiced Giving up a Safety every Thursday so that would be a consideration.
But with four-plus minutes left and our defense playing well (one TD in 43 minutes), my inclination would be to punt and turn it back over to them knowing that even if opponents scored we would likely have one more possession to win on offense.
UNLESS weather was a factor (possibility of bad snap) or I was worried about our Punt protection vs. all-out rush.
With 4+ minutes left the amount of time Punter might kill by running back into EZ before being rushed wouldn't be a factor in my mind.
Also, let's consider worst-case scenario: You elect to punt, and it's blocked-recovered for a TD.
You still have four minutes to win the game with TD or FG.
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Post by coachcb on Oct 29, 2019 11:56:46 GMT -6
I s'pose the resiliency of your team and defense needs to be taken into consideration. Our kids this year were hugely affected by momentum swings and any perception that we did/didn't think they could get the job done. If we took a safety this year, our defense would've hung their heads for the rest of the game. They would've done two things; looked at the scoreboard and saw that we "gave them two points" and figured we lost faith in them.
We were up on a team 8-0 with five minutes left in the fourth, they scored and got the two point conversion to tie it up, 8-8. Our offense hadn't been spectacular that night but special teams and defense had played an excellent game. The kids hung their heads for the next five minutes and we lost 14-8.
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Post by carookie on Oct 29, 2019 12:40:15 GMT -6
Two factors I considered, but didn't write about initially- what is their offense, and how good is their kicker. If they are the type of team that airs is out a ton then there is a feasibility that they get two possesions; and if they have a very good kicker two field goals plus a safety gives them a win.
Consider the following scenario: You take the safety and give them the ball back down 4, they had a good return last time and have another good one. Lets say they start near midfield and on their first play hit a 20+ yard pass to get to your 30. From there they air it out the next three plays to no avail, but multiple incompletions means they dont use any timeouts. So, their good kicker drains a 47 yard fg (which he has shown he is capable of). This puts the score 13-12, them kicking off with 3 minutes left and they have 2 timeouts. You get the ball at your own 20, go 3-&-out running the ball to kill their two timeouts and punt it away to them with about 2 minutes left. You already wrote your punter only nets you about 35 yards so they get it near midfield.
Now the situation is: you up 13-12 with 2 minutes left, they have the ball, no timeouts, but are only about 30 yards away from being in FG range for the game winner. May seem far fetched, but all it takes is them having a good kicker and hitting one good pass play.
To me, there may be a bit too much time on the clock to give away points, as them getting two possesions is very much a possibility.
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Post by wingtol on Oct 29, 2019 15:03:25 GMT -6
And because internet, about 2hrs 9 mins in you can witness the magic yourself.
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Post by silkyice on Oct 29, 2019 16:31:50 GMT -6
And because internet, about 2hrs 9 mins in you can witness the magic yourself. How did that guy block the punt? I have watched it 5 times and each time it looks like there is no way he is going to block it but he sure does. Also, what year is this? Looks mid 90's??? Ok, just watched the slow motion. It was a bad kick. He kicked it right into that guy's gut. Also, saw the year, 1999.
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Post by wingtol on Oct 29, 2019 16:49:06 GMT -6
And because internet, about 2hrs 9 mins in you can witness the magic yourself. How did that guy block the punt? I have watched it 5 times and each time it looks like there is no way he is going to block it but he sure does. Also, what year is this? Looks mid 90's??? Ok, just watched the slow motion. It was a bad kick. He kicked it right into that guy's gut. Also, saw the year, 1999. Watch the offensive styles in that game. Guys heads will explode now days trying to comprehend it LOL The defenses are a thread all it it self.
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 29, 2019 17:53:55 GMT -6
I am absolutely shocked that the most common answer isn't taking a safety. Most notably for the 2 responses from wingtol and cs . This was us. We punted and punter returner got a decent return to our 26. Our kicker consistently puts the ball to the goalline or the 5 every time. Kicking from the 20, puts the ball landing around the opponent's 25 and heck even with a decent return they start in their territory. IMHO punting is "bad football". Even if you haven't repped this scenario, how hard is it to tell your punter to run out of the back of the endzone? I can do that from the sideline. Very very surprised at the results thus far in the poll. Duece With 4 minutes left? I think that is too much time to make it a 3 point game AND give them possession.
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Post by gccwolverine on Oct 29, 2019 18:44:14 GMT -6
I am absolutely shocked that the most common answer isn't taking a safety. Most notably for the 2 responses from wingtol and cs . This was us. We punted and punter returner got a decent return to our 26. Our kicker consistently puts the ball to the goalline or the 5 every time. Kicking from the 20, puts the ball landing around the opponent's 25 and heck even with a decent return they start in their territory. IMHO punting is "bad football". Even if you haven't repped this scenario, how hard is it to tell your punter to run out of the back of the endzone? I can do that from the sideline. Very very surprised at the results thus far in the poll. Duece With 4 minutes left? I think that is too much time to make it a 3 point game AND give them possession. Well 6 minus 2 is 4 so........
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 29, 2019 18:46:04 GMT -6
With 4 minutes left? I think that is too much time to make it a 3 point game AND give them possession. Well 6 minus 2 is 4 so........ Complete mental bust. Thanks for the correction.
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Post by bobgoodman on Oct 29, 2019 18:49:16 GMT -6
But who'd bite on that when you're 4th-and-whatever on your own 10 and leading? They are High School aged kids. You'd be surprised how stupid they can be when under duress. When you saw it work (in a different game situation), did the deep returner(s) themselves react that way? Or was it a call from their bench? Because I don't think deep safeties can even see a backfield shift like that.
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Post by bignose on Oct 29, 2019 19:22:37 GMT -6
Good call. Their coaches started screaming for them to move up. (Of course, us yelling :"It's a fake" from our sideline didn't hurt either!).
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