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Post by fkaboneyard on Aug 22, 2019 15:07:26 GMT -6
I don't know if this is the right forum, mods feel free to move, it's really just a vent.
I'm in California and the CIF has specific rules about transfers - sit out periods, valid change of residence, etc. We've had a BUNCH of our kids poached by a neighboring private school this year. This neighboring school is a former powerhouse that wants to return to the glory days so they are basically giving a blank check to kids - literally free tuition (normally $30k a year). Our school gives no athletic aid (tuition is about $18k). I don't blame the families for moving their kids to the new school, the academics are outstanding and the financial savings is huge. I hate seeing them go but I understand their reasoning and I wish them well.
What makes me crazy is that the school that their new school lies to CIF to get them immediately eligible. You go onto the transfer website and it says, "Received. School has certified the VCR per CIF-SS guidelines." It's an outright lie. One of the kids lives next door to one of our players. He told me yesterday, "No coach, he didn't move, I was at his house swimming on Saturday afternoon."
High school sports is truly the wild, wild west out here.
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Post by hsrose on Aug 22, 2019 15:40:41 GMT -6
I'm in CA as well. We just had two captains transfer to another school last week. They were at our practice on Tuesday, they were at the new school on Wednesday when school started here. They both claim VCR, but they are gone and and no longer my concern. The other school isn't happy about this either, they don't want the 'they're recruiting' tag put on them but they're winning in most sports so the players are drawn to the flame.
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Post by blb on Aug 22, 2019 15:50:22 GMT -6
Not much you can do if parents and other adults are willing to lie or outright cheat regardless of "motivation."
And there is none bigger than money.
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 22, 2019 15:53:35 GMT -6
Every day I lean more and more to agreeing that the idea that it might the club model should be used, and educational institutions should get out of the athletics business.
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Post by fantom on Aug 22, 2019 16:33:30 GMT -6
I'm in CA as well. We just had two captains transfer to another school last week. They were at our practice on Tuesday, they were at the new school on Wednesday when school started here. They both claim VCR, but they are gone and and no longer my concern. The other school isn't happy about this either, they don't want the 'they're recruiting' tag put on them but they're winning in most sports so the players are drawn to the flame. What's a VCR?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2019 16:33:37 GMT -6
Public school systems are stuck in the mud. $ talks..bs walks. Give it time, you will not be able to win in public schools.
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Post by blb on Aug 22, 2019 16:36:57 GMT -6
I'm in CA as well. We just had two captains transfer to another school last week. They were at our practice on Tuesday, they were at the new school on Wednesday when school started here. They both claim VCR, but they are gone and and no longer my concern. The other school isn't happy about this either, they don't want the 'they're recruiting' tag put on them but they're winning in most sports so the players are drawn to the flame. What's a VCR?
Verified Change of Residence.
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Post by wingtol on Aug 22, 2019 18:06:25 GMT -6
So it's a private school to private school transfer? Probably not going to get a lot of sympathy complaining about that. Coming from someone who coached at private schools for a lot no time. And why would they care about residence if it is private to private?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2019 18:09:34 GMT -6
I'm in CA as well. We just had two captains transfer to another school last week. They were at our practice on Tuesday, they were at the new school on Wednesday when school started here. They both claim VCR, but they are gone and and no longer my concern. The other school isn't happy about this either, they don't want the 'they're recruiting' tag put on them but they're winning in most sports so the players are drawn to the flame. What's a VCR? You put VHS tapes in them and it will play on your TV. Takes forever to rewind though...
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Post by larrymoe on Aug 22, 2019 18:18:15 GMT -6
You put VHS tapes in them and it will play on your TV. Takes forever to rewind though... Be kind. Rewind.
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Post by wolverine55 on Aug 22, 2019 19:31:53 GMT -6
Do you have it on good authority that this school is handing out free tuition? Quite frankly, most private schools are not doing well enough right now to hand out multiple free tuitions that would normally cost $30,000.
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Post by fkaboneyard on Aug 22, 2019 19:46:12 GMT -6
Do you have it on good authority that this school is handing out free tuition? Quite frankly, most private schools are not doing well enough right now to hand out multiple free tuitions that would normally cost $30,000.
I have 100% authority. I also have it on 100% authority that a coach on their staff straight up contacted some of our kids and told them "you should be playing for us".
I agree that most private schools don't have the dough to hand out free tuition, I'd even say that VERY few do. But some absolutely do. There is one that is just an area code away from me that will give a full ride to a kid. If he's good enough they will give the kid's best friend 50% off to entice him to come - "Hey, you can come and bring your friend too!". And I realize that sounds outrageous but a very good friend of mine is a coach there and part of his job responsibilities is to find specific kids and make these offers. So it's happening.
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Post by mwpilots on Aug 22, 2019 20:19:51 GMT -6
I remember a time when there was some kind of honor amongst coaches. Society has changed to the point where coaches will stab other coaches in the back just to say that they are a "Good Coach". A lot of these guys can't coach. They stack the deck with kids that they have promised heaven and earth to so they can transfer. A lot of times there are shady methods used to create an address in district. I have seen these "Free Agent Players" ruin programs and stall the progress of programs on the rise. I have seen coaches develop kids for 3 years only to have them transfer for their senior year. The kid transferred and the coaches from the other school did not get him into college-anywhere. I have always felt that coaches should be pillars of the community and a moral compass for the kids. I wonder what are we teaching our kids now. There are no morals. There is no loyalty. If High School Football doesn't get it's house in order nationally, it may cease to exist as we know it and it will resemble AAU Basketball.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2019 4:50:05 GMT -6
I remember a time when there was some kind of honor amongst coaches. Society has changed to the point where coaches will stab other coaches in the back just to say that they are a "Good Coach". A lot of these guys can't coach. They stack the deck with kids that they have promised heaven and earth to so they can transfer. A lot of times there are shady methods used to create an address in district. I have seen these "Free Agent Players" ruin programs and stall the progress of programs on the rise. I have seen coaches develop kids for 3 years only to have them transfer for their senior year. The kid transferred and the coaches from the other school did not get him into college-anywhere. I have always felt that coaches should be pillars of the community and a moral compass for the kids. I wonder what are we teaching our kids now. There are no morals. There is no loyalty. If High School Football doesn't get it's house in order nationally, it may cease to exist as we know it and it will resemble AAU Basketball. We are h.s fb coaches. If we reach a couple in any class, we have done our job. We have to stop the bull crap we are giving kids. Ultimately everything we want kids to learn is in being better football players, which ultimately makes about winning. A coach is full of crap if its about anything else.
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Post by carookie on Aug 23, 2019 6:52:05 GMT -6
Public school systems are stuck in the mud. $ talks..bs walks. Give it time, you will not be able to win in public schools. Shoot, some of the biggest recruiters here in so cal ARE the public schools. Believe it or not they have some financial adavntages that privates dont. They just need to be creative with their boosters to keep the donations with football/big time sports.
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Post by silkyice on Aug 23, 2019 7:15:39 GMT -6
There are some solutions.
One, schools have to turn each other in. Not saying I am going to do that, but if everyone did, and some got in trouble, then it would be different. Not solved, but better.
Two, the associations have to be be tough. This is the actual problem. Things like playoff bans, and outright season bans.
Three, the associations could hire investigators. Every school might have to pay $1000 (or whatever) in to a fund to do this, but it would help.
Four, transfers have to sit out a year no matter what. NO MATTER WHAT. This solves it. But also hurts kids and families that move.
Five, bona fide transfers have to sit out half the season. None bona fide transfers are still ineligible.
Six, bona fide transfers have to sit out half the season and the FIRST playoff game. Non bona fide transfers are still ineligible.
Seven, each association has TWO divisions. One - all transfers are eligible. The second division - no transfers are eligible. Each school picks which division they want to be in.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2019 7:25:50 GMT -6
Public school systems are stuck in the mud. $ talks..bs walks. Give it time, you will not be able to win in public schools. Shoot, some of the biggest recruiters here in so cal ARE the public schools. Believe it or not they have some financial adavntages that privates dont. They just need to be creative with their boosters to keep the donations with football/big time sports. Those schools, coaches have figured it out.Its the schools that playing by a set of rules that are not only antiquated, out of touch, but unenforceable. The rules are changing with or without the governing bodies. Adapt or die.
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Post by planck on Aug 23, 2019 9:40:13 GMT -6
Here in Iowa it's pretty much eliminated competition at the highest division. Dowling Catholic and Bettendorf recruit heavily, and everybody else is second class. It's pretty ridiculous, and the state association doesn't do anything about it. But what are you gonna do, right?
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Post by mountainman on Aug 24, 2019 6:50:27 GMT -6
Every day I lean more and more to agreeing that the idea that it might the club model should be used, and educational institutions should get out of the athletics business. I’m really close to you on this. I have also thought that each state should just make a “cheaters” league. Enrollment doesn’t matter, you can recruit, hell you can even outright give the kids cars, money, apartments, etc. As ridiculous as this sounds, it would be better than the outright deceit that goes on now.
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 24, 2019 8:25:42 GMT -6
Every day I lean more and more to agreeing that the idea that it might the club model should be used, and educational institutions should get out of the athletics business. I’m really close to you on this. I have also thought that each state should just make a “cheaters” league. Enrollment doesn’t matter, you can recruit, hell you can even outright give the kids cars, money, apartments, etc. As ridiculous as this sounds, it would be better than the outright deceit that goes on now. After seeing yet ANOTHER (Mississippi State this time) Academic scandal--it probably wouldn't be horrible to continue that up the chain fully to professional sports (meaning eliminate scholarship college athletics).
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Post by fantom on Aug 24, 2019 10:56:15 GMT -6
I’m really close to you on this. I have also thought that each state should just make a “cheaters” league. Enrollment doesn’t matter, you can recruit, hell you can even outright give the kids cars, money, apartments, etc. As ridiculous as this sounds, it would be better than the outright deceit that goes on now. After seeing yet ANOTHER (Mississippi State this time) Academic scandal--it probably wouldn't be horrible to continue that up the chain fully to professional sports (meaning eliminate scholarship college athletics). How does the MSU scandal lead you to believe that? From what I've read the tutor was being paid by the players to do their work for them. It happens all the time in college (Not to mention high-powered high schools). If he was being paid by ordinary students (And I'm curious if his customers list included some non-athletes) we'd never have heard about it. The biggest scandal recently, the one involving the celebrities. involved non-scholarship sports.
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 24, 2019 18:39:27 GMT -6
After seeing yet ANOTHER (Mississippi State this time) Academic scandal--it probably wouldn't be horrible to continue that up the chain fully to professional sports (meaning eliminate scholarship college athletics). How does the MSU scandal lead you to believe that? From what I've read the tutor was being paid by the players to do their work for them. It happens all the time in college (Not to mention high-powered high schools). If he was being paid by ordinary students (And I'm curious if his customers list included some non-athletes) we'd never have heard about it. The biggest scandal recently, the one involving the celebrities. involved non-scholarship sports. That is a decent point that I have to consider for my POV. I will say, I have a slightly different view on the admission scandal than most. At a public school, through the book at them. But a private school is private. If they want to admit you just because daddy wrote a 7 figure check..thats fine.
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Post by fshamrock on Sept 5, 2019 10:11:31 GMT -6
In Texas the private schools don't hurt us too much because they aren't allowed to be in our districts or win out state championship game, they have their own league, which is really nice the big problem is recruiting public school to public school, and the issue there is and always shall be the parents. They will shop these kids around to programs that win more, or programs that throw the ball more, or programs that don't demand any discipline or accountability, and we end up with super teams year in and year out. Usually the "moves" just get rubber stamped and the kids play, I can think of a few instances where districts and coaches did the right thing and kid was told they had to play at the school they live near, but it's not common. Just recently the powerhouse team in our district (12 power 5 recruits!) had guys doing there "commitment videos" over the summer and like 3 of them were posting videos of them hanging out and representing their neighborhood...which is cool except the neighborhood is like 10 miles inside the city limits not the suburban town that they play high school football for...nobody cares enough to do anything about it so I'm not sure why I should, but it seems like the regular towns like ours won't be able to compete for much longer.
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Post by tothehouse on Sept 5, 2019 10:27:14 GMT -6
Schools around our parts give out gas cards to families of transfers that don't move. It's a running joke, but it actually happens.
But don't question it because then people get pissed. Especially the local media. Man...if anyone did any investigative report...the {censored} they'd find would be national news.
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Post by planck on Sept 5, 2019 10:29:22 GMT -6
Schools around our parts give out gas cards to families of transfers that don't move. It's a running joke, but it actually happens. But don't question it because then people get pissed. Especially the local media. Man...if anyone did any investigative report...the {censored} they'd find would be national news. Here in Iowa a school got caught openly recruiting a kid by having girls flirt with him at the direction of a coach. Guess how severe the repercussions were...
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Post by fshamrock on Sept 5, 2019 10:53:16 GMT -6
The other part of the transfers thing is when you get one it's almost always just a PITA. Transfer dads are the worst kind of dads, they roll in thinking that you own them something personally because they moved their half-wit children in to play on your football team, truth be told even if the kid has a little talent he's such a head case he still hurts the team more than helps. I swear it's unfathomable to me, can you imagine the kind of life a kid is going to lead when his parents are willing to freaking MOVE just he can get into a better football situation?...Then wonder why some of these kids think the world revolves around them. If I had suggested to my parents when I was in high school that we MOVE for ME they would still to this day be laughing about it, these kids take it as a matter of course. Dads up in the stands threatening it all the time...yeah yeah i'll move over the school B and they'll treat me special
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Post by nicku on Sept 5, 2019 11:14:24 GMT -6
In Texas the private schools don't hurt us too much because they aren't allowed to be in our districts or win out state championship game, they have their own league, which is really nice the big problem is recruiting public school to public school, and the issue there is and always shall be the parents. They will shop these kids around to programs that win more, or programs that throw the ball more, or programs that don't demand any discipline or accountability, and we end up with super teams year in and year out. Usually the "moves" just get rubber stamped and the kids play, I can think of a few instances where districts and coaches did the right thing and kid was told they had to play at the school they live near, but it's not common. Just recently the powerhouse team in our district (12 power 5 recruits!) had guys doing there "commitment videos" over the summer and like 3 of them were posting videos of them hanging out and representing their neighborhood...which is cool except the neighborhood is like 10 miles inside the city limits not the suburban town that they play high school football for...nobody cares enough to do anything about it so I'm not sure why I should, but it seems like the regular towns like ours won't be able to compete for much longer. The kids and parents misguided ambitions is for sure the main problem...however, the UIL is not helping. Have you seen that friggin PAPF form? its insane. "Did the student, at any point, eat more than four fully balance breakfasts in more than one residence in a 3 year period from 2002-2016"...its ridiculous. There are a few programs up here in DFW that the coaches are culprits. There are a few where the school districts themselves are making it worse with open enrollment...but mainly its the kids/families.
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Post by fshamrock on Sept 6, 2019 8:39:59 GMT -6
In Texas the private schools don't hurt us too much because they aren't allowed to be in our districts or win out state championship game, they have their own league, which is really nice the big problem is recruiting public school to public school, and the issue there is and always shall be the parents. They will shop these kids around to programs that win more, or programs that throw the ball more, or programs that don't demand any discipline or accountability, and we end up with super teams year in and year out. Usually the "moves" just get rubber stamped and the kids play, I can think of a few instances where districts and coaches did the right thing and kid was told they had to play at the school they live near, but it's not common. Just recently the powerhouse team in our district (12 power 5 recruits!) had guys doing there "commitment videos" over the summer and like 3 of them were posting videos of them hanging out and representing their neighborhood...which is cool except the neighborhood is like 10 miles inside the city limits not the suburban town that they play high school football for...nobody cares enough to do anything about it so I'm not sure why I should, but it seems like the regular towns like ours won't be able to compete for much longer. The kids and parents misguided ambitions is for sure the main problem...however, the UIL is not helping. Have you seen that friggin PAPF form? its insane. "Did the student, at any point, eat more than four fully balance breakfasts in more than one residence in a 3 year period from 2002-2016"...its ridiculous. There are a few programs up here in DFW that the coaches are culprits. There are a few where the school districts themselves are making it worse with open enrollment...but mainly its the kids/families. How would you feel if Texas moved to the model of some other states where you get moved up and down classifications every year based on how much success you have rather than just enrollment? (enrollment still being a factor, you wouldn't move a 2A up to 6A etc.) so if you want to cheat it up and make a super team, you and all of the other super teams get to hang together in 7A while the rest of us play regular football with regular kids and have a great time
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Post by nicku on Sept 6, 2019 9:11:56 GMT -6
The kids and parents misguided ambitions is for sure the main problem...however, the UIL is not helping. Have you seen that friggin PAPF form? its insane. "Did the student, at any point, eat more than four fully balance breakfasts in more than one residence in a 3 year period from 2002-2016"...its ridiculous. There are a few programs up here in DFW that the coaches are culprits. There are a few where the school districts themselves are making it worse with open enrollment...but mainly its the kids/families. How would you feel if Texas moved to the model of some other states where you get moved up and down classifications every year based on how much success you have rather than just enrollment? (enrollment still being a factor, you wouldn't move a 2A up to 6A etc.) so if you want to cheat it up and make a super team, you and all of the other super teams get to hang together in 7A while the rest of us play regular football with regular kids and have a great time Its definitely an interesting idea but I'd have to think more about it. I'm hesitant to basically say "sure, recruit kids, get their "aunt" an apartment over here, whatever" and just make the only punishment a bump in prestige...but its certainly an interesting idea.
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Post by coachcb on Sept 6, 2019 10:41:35 GMT -6
Not much you can do if parents and other adults are willing to lie or outright cheat regardless of "motivation." And there is none bigger than money.
Agreed..
In my last AD gig, we had a kid transfer to a basketball powerhouse two weeks into our basketball season. His parents put in the transfer hardship paperwork with the state two weeks before filling out the academic transfer paperwork between the schools. We found out he was transferring from the state athletic association long before the other school asked for academic records.
The state approved his athletic hardship transfer and he was starting against us the very next week. We were adamant with the state association that the transfer was athletically motivated and provided all of the evidence but they still let him play. Myself and our administration emailed and called the state to gripe about it but they wouldn't listen. We played them five times that season and I was a fuming at every game.
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