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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 20, 2019 10:39:09 GMT -6
A couple more things. As far as participation goes. One way the H.S. model hurts is that there is only one team that is fielded. That's just not enough. The idea, and I went through this, of developing and riding the pine in games and developing in practice and playing some JV games and whatnot, well, that's nice, but who really wants to do that. You get better by playing in competitive games. My daughter's age group for competitive field four teams, A, B, C, D. All of those kids will play at least 30 meaningful games this year between the fall and spring seasons, plus three practices / week. Football needs to field more teams at more levels so that more kids can play and not just practice. Phantom's response to my comments about the field, well, yes . . . . that's a problem, but again, does a community want to do things that will make the game safer, and also perhaps more exciting. NFL and college people routinely cite that as a problem - they would lose about 15,000 seats. But here's the thing. The field they play is the same one that Thorpe and Heisman played on, but those guys were a quarter the size and speed of today's players. The field is a bandbox. This should not be a problem. My daughter's club has 6 full size soccer fields, along with numerous smaller ones for 9v9, 7vs7, and down. This is an easy fix.... While I side with you on some aspects, I would disagree that some of your proposals are "easy fixes" given the current integration of HS and sports.
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Post by bobgoodman on Jul 20, 2019 11:01:09 GMT -6
Although I agree with your example, my anecdotal example would be a receiver getting hit coming over the middle or a safety flying up in the box with a big hit in comparison to a gator roll tackle by a DL.... Looks we have differing opinions that really can't be answered unless significant changes or significant research that has not been done (to my knowledge) on the CFL which even that would be tough to do a comparison as their players aren't the same with any other league. I don't see how your comparison fits here though coach. You are comparing two different events. Enlarging the field size is changing the environments. If the ball carrier had a wider area in which he was travelling, the safety may not be "flying up" as fast (again, open field tackle) because he is less certain as to where the ball carrier is going. bobgoodman I would have thought a scientist would have recognized that defenders reach maximum striking velocities on the current American field dimensions pretty quickly, and that increasing the field size would not increase THEIR maximum striking velocities, but it would indeed increase the space in which the offense could maneuver. This would likely result in DECREASED striking velocities by the defense. It's true that once you get into open field, the threat by the ballcarrier to cut delays the commitment by the tackler. But once you get into open field, it doesn't matter how much extra space there is. Over a century ago when they were looking to decrease the violence of American football, one idea was to widen the field. They never got to find out what effect that would have on their game, but I think experience with Canadian football shows that it doesn't affect things by a simple relationship of ratio of field width (or depth) to number of players. Canadian football's quick pitches and passes create situations where the ball's in the air and the defender can tee off while the receiver's waiting, as opposed to the runner seeing the defender coming from a long way and juking him. Ironically, the situation in Canadian football a century ago did have features with expected effects like what you're proposing. The lines engaged rugby style, but spread out in winglines rather than a pack, forward passing wasn't legal, blocking wasn't legal except along the line, and a common attacking move was the extension play, similar to a 3/4 passing movement in rugby. And when the ballcarrier was tackled, he could be mauled forward in a tandem buck. The result was to make tacklers less sure once they approached ballcarriers in the open field. But the situation in today's Canadian football is like night and day to that.
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Post by bobgoodman on Jul 20, 2019 11:13:32 GMT -6
AYSO figures report a substantial decline in youth soccer participation over the past 25 years or so in the USA, after a big rise over the previous 25 or so. However, a soccer referee reports in a thread on Quora that around him, in Brooklyn, they've been having an increase in participation due to immigration. Similarly I mention how so many bowling alleys have gone out of business, but the ones near him are doing fine, and he goes there with his family several times a year. So there are always local factors. Bob.. was that a decline in AYSO participation or TOTAL soccer participation? Could the numbers be due to other organizations? USYS claims a participation number of over 3 million? Just saying that 1) Data can be somewhat misleading and "incomplete" The story from the New York Times in 2018 is behind a pay wall, but it's headlined as "youth soccer" and being understood that way by others discussing it online, so I was probably wrong in limiting it to AYSO rather than that it's affected all of youth soccer in the USA where there are registration data. We don't know about kids playing pickup games, but anecdotes are that "pickup culture" is way down these days, due to both demographics and suburbanization.
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Post by jlenwood on Jul 20, 2019 13:22:24 GMT -6
So I see a lot of differing opinions on what is affecting football numbers, population..club soccer..the feild..cte etc:, however no-one is addressing the declining number of football players. It seems like an analogy of we all agree there is bleeding, but instead of addressing the wound everyone is arguing about what type of bandage to use.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 20, 2019 13:38:02 GMT -6
So I see a lot of differing opinions on what is affecting football numbers, population..club soccer..the feild..cte etc:, however no-one is addressing the declining number of football players. It seems like an analogy of we all agree there is bleeding, but instead of addressing the wound everyone is arguing about what type of bandage to use. First, I can't truly make out the numbers here, but does it show a noteworthy absolute decline, or is the decline mostly relative to other sports? As far as the discussion, isn't that trying to figure out what is causing the bleeding? I mean if football participation is declining because the athletes hate alternative uniforms then aren't we all in for a big shock I will be honest, I think the coolest thing about this graph is you can see the impact of Title IX.
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Post by natenator on Jul 22, 2019 6:41:27 GMT -6
I don't see how your comparison fits here though coach. You are comparing two different events. Enlarging the field size is changing the environments. If the ball carrier had a wider area in which he was travelling, the safety may not be "flying up" as fast (again, open field tackle) because he is less certain as to where the ball carrier is going. bobgoodman I would have thought a scientist would have recognized that defenders reach maximum striking velocities on the current American field dimensions pretty quickly, and that increasing the field size would not increase THEIR maximum striking velocities, but it would indeed increase the space in which the offense could maneuver. This would likely result in DECREASED striking velocities by the defense. . Canadian football's quick pitches and passes create situations where the ball's in the air and the defender can tee off while the receiver's waiting, as opposed to the runner seeing the defender coming from a long way and juking him. [br You make it sound as though we dont attempt to block defenders in the Canadian game thus allowing defenders to 'tee off' on a ball carrier lol
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Post by 53 on Jul 22, 2019 7:22:46 GMT -6
I honestly don’t think the concussion stuff is the main driver.
We now require so much more time with it being year round and the style of the game has changed to being played in more space.
That’s a double edged sword to those not really talented. We’re wanting more of your time while it’s also harder to find a spot for you on the field.
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Post by Coach.A on Jul 23, 2019 13:55:10 GMT -6
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Post by chi5hi on Jul 23, 2019 15:11:35 GMT -6
I think kickoffs will be gone fairly soon and I’m ok with that. I know it takes an exciting play out of the mix but getting rid of the full speed hits is a good thing. There is no limit to how much I disagree with this.
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smcauliffe54
Sophomore Member
Wisconsin 2018 Division 4 State Champions 14-0
Posts: 188
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Post by smcauliffe54 on Jul 23, 2019 17:43:01 GMT -6
Just my opinion. Maybe the kids that are the 20-25th senior on a team and dont see the field are just not playing instead of being happy with just being on the team. i think sport specialization might be a factor as well. i think numbers are definitely going down and more rural area teams are having to go 8 man or co-op.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 23, 2019 18:03:58 GMT -6
I think kickoffs will be gone fairly soon and I’m ok with that. I know it takes an exciting play out of the mix but getting rid of the full speed hits is a good thing. There is no limit to how much I disagree with this. disagreeing with the fact that kickoffs will be phased out, or disagreeing that getting rid of full speed collisions is a good thing.
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turk
Freshmen Member
Posts: 22
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Post by turk on Jul 26, 2019 13:39:59 GMT -6
I’m going to take a shot at this and there are probably some holes in my argument, so fire away. You can do whatever you want with statistics, so an optimist would say that football has grown by over 100,000 participants between 1970 and 2018. This is as a single gender sport (I know some would argue there is female participation, but get real). No other single gender sport comes close. The first thing that stands out in this graph is the fact that football participation numbers were below a million participants for so long (70’s, 80’s, and part of the 90’s), football has grown as more kids participate in high school athletics. I think most people believe high school football was in its heyday during those decades (myself included). I played in the late 80s and the only fall sport options were football and cross-country, there were countless males that didn’t play sports during that time period. So to me, this graph isn’t showing the demise of football, it is showing that there are more kids participating in sports that weren’t available 30 years ago and the kids that play those sports were never going to play football to begin with (ie. soccer). According to the NFHS, schools offering football in 2018 increased by 29 schools. Of the loss of participants, it equates to 1.5 players per team. As a side note for all those that complain about millenials, football’s highest participation rate was when the millenials were in high school.
This isn’t to say football doesn’t have a problem, it does. Football has always been in this situation. There have been several times in the games history that it has been under attack for being too violent and/or dangerous. Rules changes have occurred throughout the games history and have made the game safer. I believe the game is one of those time periods and we are changing the game for the better. Football has always been a challenge for young people, it is not for everyone. It is a lot of hard work and it is violent. I think we need to appreciate the fact that so many young people are willing to play the game with so many other options out there vying for their time. The game will get better and even if the sport drops to 900,000 kids playing per year, it is more than viable as a national sport.
Last point. I believe there is an attack on football today. I believe it is political in nature and it based on gender equity. I have a daughter and I am all for equal opportunity for all genders. The problem is when these political groups try to legislate equal outcomes. Football has a big target on it’s back because it is overwhelmingly male and from a participation standpoint and in the American sports culture (TV) it is dominant. As much as the media tries to convey a downward spiral for football in it’s popularity (TV ratings are still light years ahead of any other sport and participation at the high school level for a single gender sport are almost double the next closest sport, boys track and field). Title IX has worked for creating opportunities in sport for women (evidenced by the graph), but they will never have the same female only sport that is as popular as football, hence the media attacks on football (in my opinion).
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Post by Chris Clement on Jul 27, 2019 1:04:34 GMT -6
You were making solid points and your last paragraph kind of went off the rails, it’s a loose collection of personal anecdote, conjecture, and tenuous links between them.
It’s hard to use raw participation numbers to draw too many conclusions. How do we control for demographic population growth, or the increased access to football? Football may have been huge 40 years ago for schools that had it but a lot of schools may simply not have had teams. The failure to include participation in non-scholastic sports is another problem.
Participation rates would definitely have been higher fifteen years ago because there were more teenagers at the time. For a simple explanation of why and how there can be more total population but fewer teenagers, imagine the baby boomers who were the product of an explosion of baby making after the war. Then do the quick math and figure out when they would have been having kids. After the baby boom was the “bust,” because babymaking st that rate was always unsustainable and was also the result of many people’s family planning being postponed. “Millennials” are often called the “echo” of the boom, so now we’re seeing the echo of the bust.
Still, there’s not necessarily cause for panic in football, the numbers look pretty good if you ballpark the adjustments, and there’s not much non-scholastic football being played. It looks like kids are just generally involved in a lot more activities than they were, which is anecdotally supported.
This doesn’t mean that football should sit on its laurels. There are problems with the game, some are very sensational and require careful consideration, others are more fundamental - the rule book is a nightmare, for one, and a lot of it is from people trying to legislate edge cases into a platonic ideal of the game they feel it should be, instead of laying out a framework and letting the game be played within it. Just read through the rules section here to get a sense of how the rule book eliminates edge cases and in doing so creates corner cases, where exceptions to rules interact in weird ways. Poor technical writing, the politicization of rule changes, and constantly tweaking small parts of the rule book without ever taking a global view are big parts of the problem. This makes the game way harder to understand than it really should be. Football is hardly alone in this, many sports try to patch over their problems with one-off rules, but when your sport is already complex you shouldn’t make it complicated.
Professionalizing the game is another problem but it’s part of an arms race. It make all sports less fun, and I don’t see any politically acceptable solution here, I don’t exactly see the Norwegian Solution being implemented, grownups are far too emotionally invested in the, ultimately irrelevant, accomplishments of children. It’s something many coaches exacerbate by pushing for more liberal rules about offseason activities, because 90% of coaches think they’re in the top 10% of coaches and if they had unlimited practice time they could turn their players into perfect little toy soldiers. Unfortunately solving it is going to require a lot of adults to start acting like the grownups in the room, will and will probably require the collective collaboration of every other major sport at the same time.
So while the game is doing well, it needs to be careful to stay relevant. For a good example see cricket’s recent changes.
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Post by bobgoodman on Jul 27, 2019 15:30:27 GMT -6
There are problems with the game, some are very sensational and require careful consideration, others are more fundamental - the rule book is a nightmare, for one, and a lot of it is from people trying to legislate edge cases into a platonic ideal of the game they feel it should be, instead of laying out a framework and letting the game be played within it. Just read through the rules section here to get a sense of how the rule book eliminates edge cases and in doing so creates corner cases, where exceptions to rules interact in weird ways. Poor technical writing, the politicization of rule changes, and constantly tweaking small parts of the rule book without ever taking a global view are big parts of the problem. This makes the game way harder to understand than it really should be. Football is hardly alone in this, many sports try to patch over their problems with one-off rules, but when your sport is already complex you shouldn’t make it complicated. I agree with what went before (snipped), but strongly with this part, especially details regarding contact and non-contact major fouls. They keep trying to take things out of the officials' judgment by covering detailed cases. They think they're making for greater equity and less error, but all they're actually doing is substituting difficult-to-impossible factual judgments for difficult general judgments, and the overall effect is to make the rules more arbitrary and hard to administer. Now officials are afraid to call unnecessary roughness based on their general judgment, because there are so many cases where they have to call it because of picayune details that they may not even be able to see, resulting in some severely chicken-dung calls instead of just going by the spirit of the rules. Same with unsportsmanlike conduct. Whazzat? Don't have kids?
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