|
Post by larrymoe on Jul 17, 2019 13:59:31 GMT -6
Tony Holler- aerobic conditioning is stupid child abuse for fools.
Also Tony Holler- check out how many days in a row I've went for a jog in the morning.
|
|
|
Post by blb on Jul 17, 2019 14:16:45 GMT -6
Tony Holler- aerobic conditioning is stupid child abuse for fools. Also Tony Holler- check out how many days in a row I've went for a jog in the morning.
Well I guess then that PE teachers who use-teach kids to Presidential Fitness Test (including 880 or Mile run) are fools too.
No wonder obesity rates in our country continue to rise.
If a Junior-Senior in HS who is going to be a varsity athlete - the big kids - can't run-jog four laps around a track at 50th percentile on PFT for their age - that's bad.
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Jul 17, 2019 15:41:25 GMT -6
Tony Holler- aerobic conditioning is stupid child abuse for fools. Also Tony Holler- check out how many days in a row I've went for a jog in the morning.
Well I guess then that PE teachers who use-teach kids to Presidential Fitness Test (including 880 or Mile run) are fools too.
No wonder obesity rates in our country continue to rise.
If a Junior-Senior in HS who is going to be a varsity athlete - the big kids - can't run-jog four laps around a track at 50th percentile on PFT for their age - that's bad.
Yeah, but larrymoe and blb lets be genuine here. He isn't saying that is bad. He is saying that it is counter productive for football athletes to train in that manner.
|
|
|
Post by blb on Jul 17, 2019 15:50:07 GMT -6
Well I guess then that PE teachers who use-teach kids to Presidential Fitness Test (including 880 or Mile run) are fools too.
No wonder obesity rates in our country continue to rise.
If a Junior-Senior in HS who is going to be a varsity athlete - the big kids - can't run-jog four laps around a track at 50th percentile on PFT for their age - that's bad.
Yeah, but larrymoe and blb lets be genuine here. He isn't saying that is bad. He is saying that it is counter productive for football athletes to train in that manner.
HS kids aren't just "football athletes."
They need to learn how to live healthy life styles and develop habits that will help them when they are no longer "football athletes."
And frankly I disagree with the contention it's counter productive. A kid who wants to be the best football player he can be should have the commitment-mental toughness to lace 'em up and go out and run-jog 6-8 minutes let's say three times a week in the summer.
That stuff comes in handy in a football game too even if it doesn't fit the science.
Obviously I'm not advocating that is the ONLY way they should train.
|
|
|
Post by larrymoe on Jul 17, 2019 16:16:57 GMT -6
Well I guess then that PE teachers who use-teach kids to Presidential Fitness Test (including 880 or Mile run) are fools too.
No wonder obesity rates in our country continue to rise.
If a Junior-Senior in HS who is going to be a varsity athlete - the big kids - can't run-jog four laps around a track at 50th percentile on PFT for their age - that's bad.
Yeah, but larrymoe and blb lets be genuine here. He isn't saying that is bad. He is saying that it is counter productive for football athletes to train in that manner. Peopke of that cult have flat said making people run long distances unless they're cross country runners is child abuse. Maybe not in that particular thread, but it's happened.
|
|
|
Post by 19delta on Jul 17, 2019 16:55:55 GMT -6
Yeah, but larrymoe and blb lets be genuine here. He isn't saying that is bad. He is saying that it is counter productive for football athletes to train in that manner. Peopke of that cult have flat said making people run long distances unless they're cross country runners is child abuse. Maybe not in that particular thread, but it's happened. Agreed. The #CatPeople think that if your athletes actually break a sweat (or, God forbid, get strong in the weightroom), you are some kind of caveman.
|
|
|
Post by groundchuck on Jul 18, 2019 3:26:28 GMT -6
I would say the "truth" is somewhere not at the extreme end of either belief system.
|
|
|
Post by larrymoe on Jul 18, 2019 5:40:50 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by jlenwood on Jul 18, 2019 6:39:39 GMT -6
Quick answer to get a kid in "shape":Prowler
|
|
|
Post by 42falcon on Jul 18, 2019 10:19:02 GMT -6
The problem here is a global lack of understanding around "energy systems". In an isolated environment where yes football is a game of 4-5 second bursts followed by a 20 second rest. So this is where the twitter crew is getting that football is slotted into a specific energy system category. The problem becomes this does not account for: -different body types -different distances to run -different tasks associated with different positions *someone gave the contrast between a NT and a C their jobs are vastly different on every play* -in the NFL and even the NCAA a guy makes a big play and he often gets subbed out for a squirt of water then subbed back in again. In HS I don't know to many teams that can sub out the stud RB for another dude after a big run. Chances are the stud RB is playing O the whole series, he is on the PAT team and then the kick off team.
So I think the reality is the game is not 4-5 second sprint with a 20 second rest. As coaches we need to do something to ensure our kids can handle this type of a game where there is the need for a large amount of work capacity. Which in turn does require a stock of aerobic conditioning.
|
|
|
Post by mrjvi on Jul 18, 2019 10:59:23 GMT -6
True that requirements may vary but not IMO 16 x 110's.
|
|
|
Post by silkyice on Jul 18, 2019 11:54:01 GMT -6
The problem here is a global lack of understanding around "energy systems". In an isolated environment where yes football is a game of 4-5 second bursts followed by a 20 second rest. So this is where the twitter crew is getting that football is slotted into a specific energy system category. The problem becomes this does not account for: -different body types -different distances to run -different tasks associated with different positions *someone gave the contrast between a NT and a C their jobs are vastly different on every play* -in the NFL and even the NCAA a guy makes a big play and he often gets subbed out for a squirt of water then subbed back in again. In HS I don't know to many teams that can sub out the stud RB for another dude after a big run. Chances are the stud RB is playing O the whole series, he is on the PAT team and then the kick off team. So I think the reality is the game is not 4-5 second sprint with a 20 second rest. As coaches we need to do something to ensure our kids can handle this type of a game where there is the need for a large amount of work capacity. Which in turn does require a stock of aerobic conditioning. Hence why we run the 40/30/20's every 30 seconds and add in 1 or 2 250's. Sometimes you just don't get that break. But I do agree that 16 110's is not the best way to go. And I vehemently disagree that conditioning should be done all summer or all year. It really doesn't take but a few weeks to get a kid into shape enough to practice if he has been doing strength/speed/jump/agility training. And then after a few of practice, he should be able to play a game at a reasonable level. And after a few weeks of games, he should be good to go. Just the way it is in my opinion.
|
|
mhs99
Junior Member
Posts: 250
|
Post by mhs99 on Jul 18, 2019 14:52:06 GMT -6
We don’t even go this far. We do nearly everything mimicking game conditions. Our staple is coming out of the chutes and sometimes vs. heavy 96:bags. We will try to get 20-25 reps per session at the end of practice. It has to be off a QB count (multiple) or off ball movement. We do this because this is what you do in games. We are a small program 35 kids 9-12 and believe most of your conditioning should take place through individual period . Our skill kids condition through going full speed through routes, carries, coverage work, etc. This coupled with some preseason sprint interval (walk for :05, jog for :05, sprint for :05, jog for :05, repeat) gets them in shape fast. Running anything in terms of sprints that takes over 4 seconds is utterly useless in my opinion. Watching teams run 100 yard sprints I see kids do nothing but going half speed and conserving energy. Timing them doesn’t help as football them is just made more miserable. With 7v7’s and summer basketball our skill kids are usually in excellent shape, big boys only take around 3 weeks to get ready for a game. Too much hardo stuff still left in high school football, it is changing for the better as coaching is turning to actual evidence based practices that support conditioning programs. We live by the idea of training and treating players like racehorses not plow horses.
|
|
|
Post by blb on Jul 18, 2019 15:03:24 GMT -6
We don’t even go this far. We do nearly everything mimicking game conditions. Our staple is coming out of the chutes and sometimes vs. heavy 96:bags. We will try to get 20-25 reps per session at the end of practice. It has to be off a QB count (multiple) or off ball movement. We do this because this is what you do in games. We are a small program 35 kids 9-12 and believe most of your conditioning should take place through individual period . Our skill kids condition through going full speed through routes, carries, coverage work, etc. This coupled with some preseason sprint interval (walk for :05, jog for :05, sprint for :05, jog for :05, repeat) gets them in shape fast. Running anything in terms of sprints that takes over 4 seconds is utterly useless in my opinion. Watching teams run 100 yard sprints I see kids do nothing but going half speed and conserving energy. Timing them doesn’t help as football them is just made more miserable. With 7v7’s and summer basketball our skill kids are usually in excellent shape, big boys only take around 3 weeks to get ready for a game. Too much hardo stuff still left in high school football, it is changing for the better as coaching is turning to actual evidence based practices that support conditioning programs. We live by the idea of training and treating players like racehorses not plow horses.
mhs99 That is very good explanation of what you do once practice starts.
Besides your skill kids playing basketball and 7-on-7s - what else do you do conditioning-wise (if anything) before then?
|
|
mhs99
Junior Member
Posts: 250
|
Post by mhs99 on Jul 18, 2019 20:56:09 GMT -6
During the summer, not a lot of conditioning. We want our kids to mainly add mass, power, and explosiveness through weight training. Summer work includes: - We will have the kids play ultimate frisbee, linemen vs. backs 7v7, and other “games” that promote quick twitch and sudden movements. This is after lifting. - We do at least 2 foot quicknesss/coordinations drills, plyometric drills, etc. so these include, ploy boxes, dot mats, ladders, broad jumps, one leg jumps, jumping rope, etc.as part of our warmup before lifting. - We do have a preseason camp where some conditioning is embedded through Indy/group period and defensive footwork stations - The week before we begin we do stations with several of the aforementioned warmups along with bullet belt sprints and parachute sprints
|
|
|
Post by tbelding on Jul 18, 2019 23:04:53 GMT -6
And frankly I disagree with the contention it's counter productive. A kid who wants to be the best football player he can be should have the commitment-mental toughness to lace 'em up and go out and run-jog 6-8 minutes let's say three times a week in the summer.
That stuff comes in handy in a football game too even if it doesn't fit the science.
Speed and endurance are not most effectively trained concurrently. The offseason should be used to get faster and stronger, being in shape is for the end of August through October or whenever your season runs.
|
|
|
Post by mrjvi on Jul 19, 2019 5:28:16 GMT -6
I agree with speed and endurance but I start to add the "conditioning" stuff in early August daily after the strength/power stuff. It seems to get us more ready for our 1st game which is extremely important for us since our season is so short (too few games). Plus many of my kids need to go both ways early because the other half of the kids only show up to play day 1 and it's hard to use them as 2 way players right away.
|
|
|
Post by fshamrock on Jul 19, 2019 9:49:36 GMT -6
do yourselves a favor and get off of twitter, it doesn't matter what the original intent, or even the subject matter, all twitter eventually boils over into clickbait bullchit like this. The cream sinks to the bottom and is never seen while the purposefully provocative but meaningless tripe gets attention. It's not worth the one cool blitz you might see every month or so to have to wade through all the self congratulatory asshats and the grown men who seem to need attention as severely as pre-pubescent girls. "coach twitter" is particularly distasteful because everybody is so mind numbingly self righteous. What did me in for good (other than the blessed to recieve tweets) was one year on veterans/memorial/whatever day coach twitter was in full effect comparing coaching to storming the beaches at Normandy. Leave aside the fact that the vast majority of these guys came of age during the war on terror and very few of them elected the serve (which I don't blame them for at all) but then they want to milk military honors and traditions to pretend like they are somehow a part of the same thing because they yell at kids a lot and also have male anatomy (just like soldiers!)
I should have probably started another thread on the topic, but go back to the first line and please think about considering it...get off of coach twitter, it's toxic and will reinforce the worst parts of your character, making you crappier at this job. #grind
|
|
|
Post by fantom on Jul 19, 2019 10:17:03 GMT -6
And frankly I disagree with the contention it's counter productive. A kid who wants to be the best football player he can be should have the commitment-mental toughness to lace 'em up and go out and run-jog 6-8 minutes let's say three times a week in the summer.
That stuff comes in handy in a football game too even if it doesn't fit the science.
Speed and endurance are not most effectively trained concurrently. The offseason should be used to get faster and stronger, being in shape is for the end of August through October or whenever your season runs. That doesn't make sense. How are we supposed to play games if our players are not in good enough physical condition to play games? What good does it do to have a player get faster and stronger if he's gassed on the bench?
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Jul 19, 2019 10:21:19 GMT -6
Speed and endurance are not most effectively trained concurrently. The offseason should be used to get faster and stronger, being in shape is for the end of August through October or whenever your season runs. That doesn't make sense. How are we supposed to play games if our players are not in good enough physical condition to play games? What good does it do to have a player get faster and stronger if he's gassed on the bench? I think what he was saying that you don't need to be working to be "in shape" for june and july. You need to be in shape for the first game in late August/early Sept.
|
|
|
Post by 19delta on Jul 19, 2019 10:32:49 GMT -6
That doesn't make sense. How are we supposed to play games if our players are not in good enough physical condition to play games? What good does it do to have a player get faster and stronger if he's gassed on the bench? I think what he was saying that you don't need to be working to be "in shape" for june and july. You need to be in shape for the first game in late August/early Sept. Yeah. That's how I read it,too.
|
|
|
Post by tbelding on Jul 19, 2019 12:01:13 GMT -6
Speed and endurance are not most effectively trained concurrently. The offseason should be used to get faster and stronger, being in shape is for the end of August through October or whenever your season runs. That doesn't make sense. How are we supposed to play games if our players are not in good enough physical condition to play games? What good does it do to have a player get faster and stronger if he's gassed on the bench? You don't need to run a kid all year long to have them be "in shape". In our state we get 25 days in the summer to practice as well. I mean if they left in May and showed up in August having done nothing the 1st week of camp might be tough but most kids who don't have severe body comp issues are going to be in shape just by practicing every day.
|
|
|
Post by CS on Jul 19, 2019 12:13:06 GMT -6
do yourselves a favor and get off of twitter, it doesn't matter what the original intent, or even the subject matter, all twitter eventually boils over into clickbait bullchit like this. The cream sinks to the bottom and is never seen while the purposefully provocative but meaningless tripe gets attention. It's not worth the one cool blitz you might see every month or so to have to wade through all the self congratulatory asshats and the grown men who seem to need attention as severely as pre-pubescent girls. "coach twitter" is particularly distasteful because everybody is so mind numbingly self righteous. What did me in for good (other than the blessed to recieve tweets) was one year on veterans/memorial/whatever day coach twitter was in full effect comparing coaching to storming the beaches at Normandy. Leave aside the fact that the vast majority of these guys came of age during the war on terror and very few of them elected the serve (which I don't blame them for at all) but then they want to milk military honors and traditions to pretend like they are somehow a part of the same thing because they yell at kids a lot and also have male anatomy (just like soldiers!) I should have probably started another thread on the topic, but go back to the first line and please think about considering it...get off of coach twitter, it's toxic and will reinforce the worst parts of your character, making you crappier at this job. #grind It’s not all bad. You just have to know how to block the ones you don’t want to see.
|
|
|
Post by fantom on Jul 19, 2019 14:17:02 GMT -6
That doesn't make sense. How are we supposed to play games if our players are not in good enough physical condition to play games? What good does it do to have a player get faster and stronger if he's gassed on the bench? You don't need to run a kid all year long to have them be "in shape". In our state we get 25 days in the summer to practice as well. I mean if they left in May and showed up in August having done nothing the 1st week of camp might be tough but most kids who don't have severe body comp issues are going to be in shape just by practicing every day. I didn't say anything about running kids all year. I do think that you need to work them over the summer so that they're in good enough condition to practice.
|
|
|
Post by tbelding on Jul 20, 2019 12:20:41 GMT -6
You don't need to run a kid all year long to have them be "in shape". In our state we get 25 days in the summer to practice as well. I mean if they left in May and showed up in August having done nothing the 1st week of camp might be tough but most kids who don't have severe body comp issues are going to be in shape just by practicing every day. I didn't say anything about running kids all year. I do think that you need to work them over the summer so that they're in good enough condition to practice. Don't these kids play sports, have PE, lift weights.
|
|
|
Post by 19delta on Jul 20, 2019 12:23:06 GMT -6
That doesn't make sense. How are we supposed to play games if our players are not in good enough physical condition to play games? What good does it do to have a player get faster and stronger if he's gassed on the bench? You don't need to run a kid all year long to have them be "in shape". In our state we get 25 days in the summer to practice as well. I mean if they left in May and showed up in August having done nothing the 1st week of camp might be tough but most kids who don't have severe body comp issues are going to be in shape just by practicing every day. Agreed. In fact, the best "conditioning" is playing other sports. Our 3-sport guys are always in the best physical condition.
|
|
|
Post by fantom on Jul 20, 2019 14:08:54 GMT -6
I didn't say anything about running kids all year. I do think that you need to work them over the summer so that they're in good enough condition to practice. Don't these kids play sports, have PE, lift weights. Weights, yes. We don't have a class, though. It's all done after school by the football staff (Other sports run their own programs). Thing is, lifting makes them bigger, stronger, and faster but doesn't really help with conditioning. As for other sports, some of our guys do participate in other sports but not that many. Specialization seems to have kept a lot of them out of other sports. What HS sports play in June and July, though? Because of budget cuts our PE program is bare bones. The only PE classes that we have are those required by law- 9th and 10th graders. So, if we don't condition in the summer, when will they get in condition?
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Jul 20, 2019 14:19:27 GMT -6
Don't these kids play sports, have PE, lift weights. Weights, yes. We don't have a class, though. It's all done after school by the football staff (Other sports run their own programs). Thing is, lifting makes them bigger, stronger, and faster but doesn't really help with conditioning. As for other sports, some of our guys do participate in other sports but not that many. Specialization seems to have kept a lot of them out of other sports. What HS sports play in June and July, though? Because of budget cuts our PE program is bare bones. The only PE classes that we have are those required by law- 9th and 10th graders. So, if we don't condition in the summer, when will they get in condition? I know several coaches who might start some conditioning based activities after the 4th of July, working up to more conditioning as they get closer to football practice.
|
|
|
Post by fantom on Jul 20, 2019 14:23:08 GMT -6
Weights, yes. We don't have a class, though. It's all done after school by the football staff (Other sports run their own programs). Thing is, lifting makes them bigger, stronger, and faster but doesn't really help with conditioning. As for other sports, some of our guys do participate in other sports but not that many. Specialization seems to have kept a lot of them out of other sports. What HS sports play in June and July, though? Because of budget cuts our PE program is bare bones. The only PE classes that we have are those required by law- 9th and 10th graders. So, if we don't condition in the summer, when will they get in condition? I know several coaches who might start some conditioning based activities after the 4th of July, working up to more conditioning as they get closer to football practice. Sure and we don't start much earlier than that. I don't see how you can wait until practice starts, though.
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Jul 20, 2019 14:28:07 GMT -6
I know several coaches who might start some conditioning based activities after the 4th of July, working up to more conditioning as they get closer to football practice. Sure and we don't start much earlier than that. I don't see how you can wait until practice starts, though. I just think you misinterpreted what tbelding was saying. He wasn't saying start conditioning during practice, but rather to plan your conditioning schedule so that the kids will be able to be "in shape" at game time, as opposed to spending summer time working to be in game shape so the first day of practice won't phase them.
|
|