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Post by coachscdub on Jun 10, 2019 2:35:46 GMT -6
How much weight do you attribute to the success of a coach when it comes to listening to them, purchasing a system from them, or purchasing some other product like a DVD or a book.
If you see a coach went 1-9 last year and he's selling his offense for however much money, are you going to consider his success when thinking of purchasing that product or are you a believer that the product is not dependent on the coaches results but more so the structure, organization, terminology, etc.
Similarly, when it comes to taking advice, or implementing advice that has been given to you, or presented on this forum and that you are able to see, again how much weight do you place on wins and losses, and do they play a role in your implementation of that advice.
To try and answer my own question. I think when it comes to advice or tips that are being freely discussed i think the wins and losses of that coach dont cross my mind as being so important, however, when someone is trying to sell something especially an offense or a defense i look at their wins and losses much more closely and they seem to have a large impact on my opinion of the product. Additionally, i heard a saying a while back that went something along the lines of "a coach with a bad record is just as important to study as a coach with a great record, you study the guy with the great record to see what he did well so you can emulate it, and you study what the guy with the bad record did poorly so you can avoid it".
Anyways just looking for peoples two cents i suppose.
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Post by Coach.A on Jun 10, 2019 7:22:17 GMT -6
I would argue that the vast majority of the teams with losing records do not have losing records because of their X's and O's. More often than not, teams struggle due to a lack of talent and/or poor team culture & leadership.
How many genius coordinators have we seen struggle as head coaches? Would you think twice about buying a offensive resource from a guy who won multiple championships as an OC, but struggled as a head coach?
That said, I do understand where you're coming from. I think it's a bold move for a coach to sell a "system" when he has not had proven success with it.
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Post by newhope on Jun 10, 2019 7:48:02 GMT -6
When I go to clinics, I don't usually research to see what their record was before I go to their session. I look at what they're talking about. If it's something I'm interested in, I go. If not, I don't. If I get in there and I don't like what I'm hearing---or if his only thing is I've got a lot Cats so we can do this (but I can't because I don't have those Cats) then I leave. I go to another session that looks interesting--or I go to the vendors for an hour---or socialize for an hour.
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Post by agap on Jun 10, 2019 7:55:40 GMT -6
I've never looked at a coach's record before I decided whether or not to use something from them. I've never bought a system.
Winning and losing typically comes down to talent. Coaches don't impact games as much as they like think.
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Post by blb on Jun 10, 2019 8:00:33 GMT -6
I've never looked at a coach's record before I decided whether or not to use something from them. I've never bought a system. Winning and losing typically comes down to talent. Coaches don't impact games as much as they like think.
Yes, the best coaches don't always win.
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Post by wingtol on Jun 10, 2019 8:49:29 GMT -6
When I go to clinics, I don't usually research to see what their record was before I go to their session. I look at what they're talking about. If it's something I'm interested in, I go. If not, I don't. If I get in there and I don't like what I'm hearing---or if his only thing is I've got a lot Cats so we can do this (but I can't because I don't have those Cats) then I leave. I go to another session that looks interesting--or I go to the vendors for an hour---or socialize for an hour. I'll add my pet peeve on this topic that goes along with this, guys who I usually get up and walk out on are the ones who try and make it seem like they are just like everyone else with the "we don't have any dudes just like all of you" then you see they have 100 kids 11-12 in the program and 13 college signees. Don't BS me with that and try and make it seem like your some miracle worker in a program like that. |
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klaby
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Post by klaby on Jun 10, 2019 10:28:01 GMT -6
When it comes to a system on one side of the ball, I think production is something to look at and not necessarily wins. If you are looking at an Offensive system and they have great numbers, but lose because their Defense just sucks, can you blame that offensive system guy? I would say no. But if you have a guy selling you a "culture" type program and he cant win well then I would re-think it. Plus you also have to take into account your Jimmy's and Joey's right. A college coach can go get guys that work in his system, we don't have that luxury. So again is the system adaptable to the ever changing talent level at the HS level?
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Post by realdawg on Jun 10, 2019 11:12:21 GMT -6
I will listen to anyone. I don’t look at their records. But if it’s something I’m interested in then I’ll listen to what they have to say. I probably ain’t buying anyone’s system though.
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Post by newhope on Jun 11, 2019 6:08:34 GMT -6
When it comes to a system on one side of the ball, I think production is something to look at and not necessarily wins. If you are looking at an Offensive system and they have great numbers, but lose because their Defense just sucks, can you blame that offensive system guy? I would say no. But if you have a guy selling you a "culture" type program and he cant win well then I would re-think it. Plus you also have to take into account your Jimmy's and Joey's right. A college coach can go get guys that work in his system, we don't have that luxury. So again is the system adaptable to the ever changing talent level at the HS level? I would say that in most cases that might be true....but an offense that is out there on it's on without any team concept might be putting up a lot of points or a lot of yards but also costing the team a chance to win by not controlling the clock when needed or turning the ball over or giving up poor field position or having too many 3 and outs that don't give the defense time to recover. When the two parts don't work together, you're not going to have wins that match the production. It is, after all, about wins, not about what a great offensive guru someone is. There have been years where our offensive production suffered because we had such a great defense that we didn't take a lot of chances once we got a two TD lead--we knew it was over. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2019 13:48:13 GMT -6
When I go to clinics, I don't usually research to see what their record was before I go to their session. I look at what they're talking about. If it's something I'm interested in, I go. If not, I don't. If I get in there and I don't like what I'm hearing---or if his only thing is I've got a lot Cats so we can do this (but I can't because I don't have those Cats) then I leave. I go to another session that looks interesting--or I go to the vendors for an hour---or socialize for an hour. I'll add my pet peeve on this topic that goes along with this, guys who I usually get up and walk out on are the ones who try and make it seem like they are just like everyone else with the "we don't have any dudes just like all of you" then you see they have 100 kids 11-12 in the program and 13 college signees. Don't BS me with that and try and make it seem like your some miracle worker in a program like that. Gotta sell those DVD's man |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2019 13:52:14 GMT -6
I follow those who do what I do, regardless of their record or not .
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Post by s73 on Jun 18, 2019 14:21:38 GMT -6
How much weight do you attribute to the success of a coach when it comes to listening to them, purchasing a system from them, or purchasing some other product like a DVD or a book. If you see a coach went 1-9 last year and he's selling his offense for however much money, are you going to consider his success when thinking of purchasing that product or are you a believer that the product is not dependent on the coaches results but more so the structure, organization, terminology, etc. Similarly, when it comes to taking advice, or implementing advice that has been given to you, or presented on this forum and that you are able to see, again how much weight do you place on wins and losses, and do they play a role in your implementation of that advice. To try and answer my own question. I think when it comes to advice or tips that are being freely discussed i think the wins and losses of that coach dont cross my mind as being so important, however, when someone is trying to sell something especially an offense or a defense i look at their wins and losses much more closely and they seem to have a large impact on my opinion of the product. Additionally, i heard a saying a while back that went something along the lines of "a coach with a bad record is just as important to study as a coach with a great record, you study the guy with the great record to see what he did well so you can emulate it, and you study what the guy with the bad record did poorly so you can avoid it". Anyways just looking for peoples two cents i suppose. I agree whole heartedly w/ this post. The big "smell test" for me is guys who maybe aren't the winningest guys in the world bit who win at places others could not. Maybe they are only a few games over.500 but the previous years the school has been really bad. That goes a long way in mind. Shows the guy isn't loaded and prob has won with effort and intelligence. As for buying stuff? Honestly, IMO, compared to what you can get on the net nowadays? I don't buy anything anymore. Too many products have been a disappointment in terms of topic depth and just not worth the $. And again, IDK if they are any good or not, what their level of competition is or whether or not they are just loaded. Nope, just give me a consistent dude who wins where other couldn't. Then I know coaching had something to do with it. JMO. |
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center
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Post by center on Jun 18, 2019 14:51:18 GMT -6
I got two great ideas from a coach coming off a 2-7 season in the smallest classification in our state one year.
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Post by wolverine55 on Jun 18, 2019 15:32:25 GMT -6
If I find out where someone coaches--whether it's here or Twitter or wherever--I will normally go to there maxpreps page or something to see how they've done. But, that is just out of curiosity. It doesn't influence how much I value their ideas.
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Post by chi5hi on Jun 18, 2019 22:09:17 GMT -6
Sometimes, a losing season (or two) teaches you a lot! Maybe something you needed to fix or re-think.
I'll listen to a guy who got his jock strap handed to him back in '08 and '09...but since then has had good to great seasons.
He learned something and I'd like to know what that was.
I've never bought a DVD of someone else's system. I have bought lots of books.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2019 5:36:18 GMT -6
The bubble for me burst 20 years ago when I found out that the “turn around artists” everyone was always talking about were really just good recruiters
Or they ran some oddball scheme that won for a year or 2 before it caught up to them and they were out
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Post by s73 on Jun 19, 2019 10:17:34 GMT -6
I was an assistant for 7 years and then became a HC at 2 different schools for the last 16.
First place I took over hadn't won a game in 3 years and only 8 games over the previous 7 seasons. Also smallest enrollment by far on the schedule (next smallest was over twice our enrollment, but I wanted to be a HC, so....) 1st 2 years I took my lumps and got "in the hole" as far as coaching record goes (put me 12 games under .500 right off the bat). By 3rd year we were respectable and 4th year we made play offs for 2nd time in school history.
Got my 2nd gig at a start up school and we had to play our first varsity season w/ no senior class in the building and enrollment less than half the size of our opponents. Took lumps again for 2 seasons and put me another 14 games "in the whole". That's 26 games under.500 during the build process.
Since then we have won a conference title and made the play off's 5 times in 8 years. Narrowly missing 2 other times.
My point is not that I'm "such a great coach" but that records can be misleading as to coaching performance and ability. My overall record is not great, but I feel myself and staff have accomplished some pretty good things regardless of our starts in both places.
Hence, I really value the opinions of others who coach similar systems under similar circumstances and manage to be competitive. I can learn a lot from guys who "have been there before". FOR ME, at a small to mid level school hearing how they adjust for practices based on small numbers, less stipends than ideal, etc teaches ME a whole lot more & is much more beneficial than the guy whose at a huge state power w/ kids and resources coming out of his ears.
JMO.
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Post by mrjvi on Jun 19, 2019 10:32:19 GMT -6
Winning is important. Always badly losing tells me much more than winning, though, IMO. My "secret" has been in 37 years, the stronger our whole team is, the more we win. Getting far into the playoffs then also requires some saavy athletes.
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Post by coachcb on Jun 20, 2019 6:13:13 GMT -6
I'll listen to just about anyone as long as the topic interests me. There's almost always something to be learned if they're a decent clinic speaker. It doesn't really matter who the speaker is; I'll stick around as long as they're detailing how they teach a certain scheme. I tend to leave if it's clear that it's just "chalk talk"; I can pull up Xs and Os on the internet any time I want.
One of the better Wing-T presenters I have seen went 2-16 in his previous stop as an HC but landed a job in a program with athletes, culture and tradition. He went on to win a few state titles and set tons of rushing records. His presentations were always well thought out and detailed drills and the teaching of fundamentals within the scheme. His line of DVDs is a little pricey for my tastes so I haven't purchased them.
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Post by blb on Jun 20, 2019 6:22:41 GMT -6
I used to really enjoy listening to former Washington State coach Jim Walden at clinics because he talked about his Split Back Option offense and he was very entertaining, even (or perhaps especially) on Sunday morning.
His career winning percentage was .402.
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Post by oldman61 on Jun 20, 2019 14:04:47 GMT -6
I don’t normally “listen” to people about complete schemes. I’d rather go sit down for a few days and learn a system from someone as I feel I get more of the complete picture without the week 1,2,3,4 opponents sitting in the front row.
I mostly listen as a clinic/speaker/podcast etc to see how they’re teaching something or find out the different techniques they’re using inside of some of the scheme they’re using.
Just caught a 2-read convo on Twitter, it was interesting how many different ways people are trying to do the same thing.
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Post by blb on Jun 20, 2019 14:29:40 GMT -6
When a coach is asked to speak at a clinic, one must assume SOMEBODY thought he had something worthwhile to share.
Whether they do or not is obviously up to what-how he presents it and whether or not the listeners are interested in either.
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