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Post by wiscohscoach on May 17, 2019 11:45:03 GMT -6
Was talking to another coach about this and he had some interesting points so I figured I'd pitch the same discussion here.
When recruiting the halls and getting your numbers set for the season with how many kids are going to come out, do you worry more about the quality of the kids you have or the number of kids you're going to have?
Obviously we all want lots of players that are all quality guys, but is it better to have great numbers in your program or have more quality individuals?
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Post by dmg10007 on May 17, 2019 11:50:13 GMT -6
I think you have to start with numbers and widdle down to quality. The more numbers you have the more likely you are to get a higher number of quality guys, *USUALLY* lol
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Post by cqmiller on May 17, 2019 11:55:49 GMT -6
Numbers... Numbers... Numbers...
Need bodies. Then your S&C coach, OC, and DC can do what they do and teach the bodies how to maximize their potential. Without numbers, you end up with a kid who is a B+ athlete in the 1st quarter playing like a C- or D+ athlete in the 2nd half because he is just tired. Gotta have enough guys to just keep your best athletes playing at their maximum potential as long as possible.
We dressed 31 kids last year against teams that had 100+. We could be "close" for a quarter or half, but no chance in a full 4 quarter game.
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Post by blb on May 17, 2019 12:03:16 GMT -6
I learned when I was coaching in college and recruiting that it has to be THEIR idea to want to be there.
In other words, don't try to talk anybody into coming out.
Sell your program best way you know how and if some don't want it, find the ones that do. "Want to" can make up for a lot of deficiencies.
After all you can't do anything about those who don't want to play-do what's necessary to be good (or the players your opponents have either).
If you have great numbers that may just be more kids in the back of the bus who aren't playing and their parents bitching about it.
Get the kids who have that love of the game and the fight, and the blowtorch desire to be good - then develop and coach 'em so that they are.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2019 12:09:14 GMT -6
Was talking to another coach about this and he had some interesting points so I figured I'd pitch the same discussion here. When recruiting the halls and getting your numbers set for the season with how many kids are going to come out, do you worry more about the quality of the kids you have or the number of kids you're going to have? Obviously we all want lots of players that are all quality guys, but is it better to have great numbers in your program or have more quality individuals? Quality over quantity. With that said, the more numbers you get out, the more quality you're likely to get. It's really a balancing act. Also, you need numbers up to a point because of practices, injuries, and even stuff like fundraising and enthusiasm about the program. It's very hard to do much with an 11 man varsity football team with fewer than 30 kids to start the season, even at a small school. Fielding an iron man football team sucks against teams with 2 way players or even a few backups who can spell their starters for a series here and there. When numbers are low, that means fewer kids involved, which means fewer family members and friends are even following the team, let alone buying tickets and showing support. That can affect the psyche of the players you do have, where they think nobody cares. It's cancerous. Everything blb said is true. If you have to push and recruit a kid hard just to get him to come out, or if his parents are "making" him play, he's usually not going to be a very good or dedicated player for you. No loss if that kid stays at home. Same goes for coaches who think that if they suddenly run a spread they'll get a lot of "athletes" (read: basketball players) out to play--IME, if they wanted to play football, they'd already be there. However, sometimes coaches take the wrong track and view running kids off or being "too tough for most kids" as a badge of honor and have low numbers as a result. I have honestly never seen those coaches have much consistent success. |
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Post by fballcoachg on May 17, 2019 12:20:40 GMT -6
Good question and one we battle with.
When we first got here numbers were struggling, we immediately brought them up and got some quality players out of it. With that increase in numbers though we’re some players that were fringe teammates and decision makers. This past off season I had a players committee meet and talk about the program. One of the comments was that football has become almost too accessible, that there are some guys there that bring nothing to the program and can at times detract.
Not sure how I’m going to quantify it yet, but I agree and am going to pit some things in place to get rid of some of those that are just there for the Thursday meal and gear but give no practice effort and take up time off field. Reinvest all of our energy in to the kids that invest and want to do better.
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Post by blb on May 17, 2019 12:58:09 GMT -6
FWIW from experience - I coached for several years at a school of ~1750 enrollment, second highest division in our state.
We typically had 40-50 kids on Varsity, and two-platooned as much as possible.
Even so it was hard to get more than 30 kids meaningful game time including blowouts because of the 35-point, running clock "Mercy Rule."
Two of the dilemmas as far as numbers now are kids won't play if they don't see themselves starting or playing much, or don't think the team is going to win.
They just don't want to lift weights and the other things coaches ask of them year-round to sit the bench or lose.
It is a conundrum. |
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Post by CS on May 18, 2019 9:15:55 GMT -6
Depends. Are you lowering your standards to keep kids out/get kids out? If so then numbers aren’t worth it
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Post by silkyice on May 18, 2019 9:26:15 GMT -6
I do not understand this thread. We are talking about recruiting the halls. So how would go about just getting the “quality” players anyways?
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Post by mrjvi on May 18, 2019 9:42:55 GMT -6
Quality by far but I'm not talking physically. I want kids with ,a cliche, the right attitude. If I get them, I can make some of them (the less athletic) productive and contributors. They absolutely need to buy in at least minimally to our strength program.
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Post by canesfan on May 18, 2019 10:05:53 GMT -6
Not sure. I feel like we may have 40-45 kids this year but 30+ will be able to help us in some way which is great for our level and area. However I’d love to have 60 kids.
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Post by The Lunch Pail on May 18, 2019 10:27:58 GMT -6
We won our first ever district championship in 2018 with the smallest roster in 10 years and only six seniors. But everybody was so bought in and focused that we literally elbow-greased ourselves into a few wins. Don't get me wrong, we have some good athletes, but our best player in school history (QB/FS) is playing D-3 basketball and had zero football offers. We were playing against teams with six D2+ athletes in a competitive conference.
Quality all day for me!
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Post by blb on May 18, 2019 12:09:41 GMT -6
Anyone who wants some quality advice on how to run a successful program including at small school level and recruiting-retention of players should contact coachjm on here. |
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Post by coachcb on May 18, 2019 13:23:10 GMT -6
My two cents:
Beat the bushes and get numbers out and then whittle it down from there. The culling process can be a PITA if you have kids that really don't want to be out. But, you've improved the program if you manage to find 3-4 quality players out of the extra 10-15 that you pick up. Especially in a small school setting.
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Post by blb on May 18, 2019 13:33:03 GMT -6
My two cents: Beat the bushes and get numbers out and then whittle it down from there. The culling process can be a PITA if you have kids that really don't want to be out. But, you've improved the program if you manage to find 3-4 quality players out of the extra 10-15 that you pick up. Especially in a small school setting.
"Beat the bushes and get numbers out" - how?
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Post by fballcoachg on May 18, 2019 16:47:52 GMT -6
My two cents: Beat the bushes and get numbers out and then whittle it down from there. The culling process can be a PITA if you have kids that really don't want to be out. But, you've improved the program if you manage to find 3-4 quality players out of the extra 10-15 that you pick up. Especially in a small school setting.
"Beat the bushes and get numbers out" - how?
Show up at other sporting events talk to kids and put it out there, ask them if they have any interest, get them in to the weight room so they see your program first hand ask your current players if we are missing anyone that would be a good add treat your current kids right, they are your biggest salesman we actively talked/talk but don’t “chase.” Many have said it and they are right, if you have to beg a kid is he going to be bought in |
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Post by fballcoachg on May 18, 2019 16:49:23 GMT -6
And as far as “good add,” I’ve started talking to our kids about program fit as much as if not more than athletic
That’s maybe where we are at now that’s different than when we first got here
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Post by 54695469 on May 18, 2019 17:48:53 GMT -6
I think you have to start with numbers and widdle down to quality. The more numbers you have the more likely you are to get a higher number of quality guys, *USUALLY* lol Whittle |
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center
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Post by center on May 18, 2019 18:48:52 GMT -6
I learned when I was coaching in college and recruiting that is has to be THEIR idea to want to be there.
In other words, don't try to talk anybody into coming out.
Sell your program best way you know how and if some don't want it, find the ones that do. "Want to" can make up for a lot of deficiencies.
After all you can't do anything about those who don't want to play-do what's necessary to be good (or the players your opponents have either).
If you have great numbers that may just be more kids in the back of the bus who aren't playing and their parents bitching about it.
Get the kids who have that love of the game and the fight, and the blowtorch desire to be good - then develop and coach 'em so that they are.
This is a really good post. |
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Post by coachjm on May 18, 2019 20:08:47 GMT -6
Was talking to another coach about this and he had some interesting points so I figured I'd pitch the same discussion here. When recruiting the halls and getting your numbers set for the season with how many kids are going to come out, do you worry more about the quality of the kids you have or the number of kids you're going to have? Obviously we all want lots of players that are all quality guys, but is it better to have great numbers in your program or have more quality individuals? Ultimately, we believe that Football is a great sport for young people and that the players can grow through their experience in playing Football more so then many other activities... Therefor, we want to get everyone who has interested involved and we want to invest our time as coaches in maximizing each boy who plays to be the best they can be if we don't invest in every boy really they can't get out of the experience what they need to. With that stated we believe that boys are pack animals, and if the herd is choosing to play football then your numbers will be good and if they are choosing other things the numbers will not be good. So we want to facilitate an environment in which we are building the herd from the end of the season until the start of the summer, we want our culture to be one of optimism, hope, and even unrealistic goals for the next season. Once we get to the season we want a culture of high expectations which may thin the herd some but will yield a united group committed to our cause. There are several things we do in effort to grow our numbers however to answer your question it is both! You want to grow your numbers in certain periods of the year and you want to have high expectations that focuses on the growth of all of your players which has a direct correlation of the quality that you have in your program. |
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Post by coachwoodall on May 18, 2019 20:57:28 GMT -6
So far as 'recruiting the halls', my 2 cents are make sure you/staff can manage the extra bodies. If the hardest thing they will do is the dynamic warm up, then it might turn into a headache. Do you have the coaches to manage the numbers?
Otherwise, you can't have too many kids for this game. We're in spring ball and it throws a monkey wrench into things when somebody is missing when we go team and call for the 3rd string.
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Post by coachcb on May 19, 2019 8:18:44 GMT -6
"Beat the bushes and get numbers out" - how?
Show up at other sporting events talk to kids and put it out there, ask them if they have any interest, get them in to the weight room so they see your program first hand ask your current players if we are missing anyone that would be a good add treat your current kids right, they are your biggest salesman we actively talked/talk but don’t “chase.” Many have said it and they are right, if you have to beg a kid is he going to be bought in
This is how we "beat the bushes" as well. We don't "recruit the halls' or chase kids as that's just coming across as a used car salesman. We've found that the best way to get numbers up is to coach other sports and attend as many other sporting events/games as possible. Our HC coaches HS basketball as well as middle school track and that helped pick up a few kids. Inevitably, when we go to sporting events, we end up talking with parents and community members about football and that gets the word out as well.
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Post by sweep26 on May 20, 2019 21:08:07 GMT -6
I have been a HFC at both large high schools & small high schools, at Juco's and at the NCAA D-II level. I think that when you are recruiting at whatever level...you must have a plan, recruit with a purpose.
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Post by groundchuck on May 21, 2019 3:38:32 GMT -6
Both.
Be seen at events. Talk to kids and parents. The players are your best recruiter. In the end you do end up somewhat limited by the size of your school and how important football is to the community.
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Post by RunThePistol on May 21, 2019 5:30:55 GMT -6
A multi-state championship coach once told me "A good goal is to have 12%-15% of your male student body to play football." Give me all the kids that can physically play, and then they will either remove themsevles or you will remove them. Numbers has to be the main priority.
I currently coach at a 5A school in Tennessee, and last season we dressed out 52 players all season, which means we had 11% of the male student population. All of the teams we played against except 1 had 70+ players. Their talent pool was much larger, and the depth they had during the game played a large role.
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Post by pvogel on May 21, 2019 6:43:31 GMT -6
I agree with a lot of things. You want good kids that want to be there and will put in the effort.
But I will say this -
In today's age you WILL need kids on your team that hadn't really thought of playing football before. It is not as popular in a lot of places as it once was and kids are playing other sports. But peer pressure can be a good thing. Use your kids to get their other sport friends out. Coach multiple sports.
Maybe the kid quits after a week. Maybe he becomes a collegiate TE because he is better at it than he is as a power forward on the bball team. I don't know.
But we are going to have to welcome and encourage kids that are initially lukewarm on the idea of football if we want to be successful.
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Post by wiscohscoach on May 21, 2019 7:55:35 GMT -6
I agree with a lot of things. You want good kids that want to be there and will put in the effort. But I will say this - In today's age you WILL need kids on your team that hadn't really thought of playing football before. It is not as popular in a lot of places as it once was and kids are playing other sports. But peer pressure can be a good thing. Use your kids to get their other sport friends out. Coach multiple sports. Maybe the kid quits after a week. Maybe he becomes a collegiate TE because he is better at it than he is as a power forward on the bball team. I don't know. But we are going to have to welcome and encourage kids that are initially lukewarm on the idea of football if we want to be successful. I've found this to be one of the biggest things with kids is that until they actually try it they don't know. Peer pressure goes a long way when it comes from friends. |
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Post by wiscohscoach on May 21, 2019 7:56:31 GMT -6
A multi-state championship coach once told me "A good goal is to have 12%-15% of your male student body to play football." Give me all the kids that can physically play, and then they will either remove themsevles or you will remove them. Numbers has to be the main priority. I currently coach at a 5A school in Tennessee, and last season we dressed out 52 players all season, which means we had 11% of the male student population. All of the teams we played against except 1 had 70+ players. Their talent pool was much larger, and the depth they had during the game played a large role. 12-15% Program wide or just varsity program? |
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Post by RunThePistol on May 21, 2019 8:43:06 GMT -6
12%-15% program wide. It stay pretty proportional across all classifications. His reason for this served two major purposes:
1) If you have that amount then you should in theory have enough numbers for the football team to be pretty equal in regards to depth to other region/district opponents.
2) If you have that amount of male athletes in your school playing football, and you can create a culture of disciplined young men then your school as a whole "Should" be more well behaved across the borders.
Now there is no numbers to back this up and support his claim, BUT in theory it should work.
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Post by eaglemountie on May 21, 2019 20:28:57 GMT -6
Numbers can be used against you as much as admin likes to say they want to see more participation. School I coached for we got the most kids out in recent memory, possibly ever and once a lot of those kids realized football was a lot of hard work and not all sunshine and rainbows they bailed and once we got down to the typical numbers in years past admin decided to fire the HC and the DC based on the number of kids that quit. Only a handful were kids that had played before and of those that had played were big discipline issues in school as well. So really I guess the moral of this story make sure your admin is supportive of the fact that cutting the fat or cancer is normal for most successful programs.
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