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Post by fantom on Mar 20, 2019 14:51:41 GMT -6
Here's an article from Footballscoop. I sort of disagree with #4, everybody putting in the same amount of time, because I'm not sure that the author understands the reality at a lot of high schools. footballscoop.com/news/8-qualities-elite-staff/
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Post by coachcb on Mar 20, 2019 15:23:30 GMT -6
I disagree with #4 with respect to the off-season. It's not realistic to expect the entire staff to put in the same time during the off-season as schedules diverge. I'm teacher but I work in the summers so I couldn't make it to all of the football related activities.
But, I do think that it's a necessity during the season. The workload needs to be as evenly distributed as possible. The entire staff needs to help out with the grunt work (film breakdown, equipment, etc..) or it ends up falling on the shoulders of handful of guys.
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Post by CS on Mar 20, 2019 15:56:50 GMT -6
With all do respect it’s 8 qualities of an ELITE staff and I agree that to be elite you need as many guys as you can get in off season and in the summer.
I’m not saying that you can’t be good or even great without it, but the article says elite and that is a small group to be in
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Post by fantom on Mar 20, 2019 16:21:19 GMT -6
With all do respect it’s 8 qualities of an ELITE staff and I agree that to be elite you need as many guys as you can get in off season and in the summer. I’m not saying that you can’t be good or even great without it, but the article says elite and that is a small group to be in I've been on staffs that I'd consider elite (Six state championship in ten years in the second highest classification and in the four that we didn't win we lost in the quarter or semi-finals) and I've never been on one where all coaches were able to put in an equal amount of time.
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Post by CS on Mar 20, 2019 16:23:28 GMT -6
With all do respect it’s 8 qualities of an ELITE staff and I agree that to be elite you need as many guys as you can get in off season and in the summer. I’m not saying that you can’t be good or even great without it, but the article says elite and that is a small group to be in I've been on staffs that I'd consider elite (Six state championship in ten years in the second highest classification and in the four that we didn't win we lost in the quarter or semi-finals) and I've never been on one where all coaches were able to put in an equal amount of time. I didn’t say all, but I would say the majority need to be in there IMO And I don’t know you from Adam so don’t take this as a shot at you or the staff you were on but you telling me that you won state titles means nothing in terms of how good you are as coaches. You could have had dudes coming out of your a$$es for all I know
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Post by fantom on Mar 20, 2019 16:29:36 GMT -6
I've been on staffs that I'd consider elite (Six state championship in ten years in the second highest classification and in the four that we didn't win we lost in the quarter or semi-finals) and I've never been on one where all coaches were able to put in an equal amount of time. I didn’t say all, but I would say the majority need to be in there IMO And I don’t know you from Adam so don’t take this as a shot at you or the staff you were on but you telling me that you won state titles means nothing in terms of how good you are as coaches. You could have had dudes coming out of your a$$es for all I know Yeah, I debated whether to put that in but I thought that it mattered. Of course we had dudes. Nobody wins big without them. IMO, though, you can have a great staff where everybody's really good at his job while understanding that some guys have job or family obligations that limit their time commitments.
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Post by newhope on Mar 21, 2019 6:21:29 GMT -6
I would agree that on an elite staff, every paid coach who works in the building should put in fairly equal work. I try to follow that standard with my staff. Coordinators theoretically have less of the "wash the clothes, line the field" sort of stuff because they spend more time on preparation for practice and games. Those who are paid, but don't work at school are not going to be able to devote as much time because they have outside jobs. I do expect more of a time and work commitment from them than I do from unpaid volunteers. Most of us in high school are not going to be able to hire a complete staff that are all paid and in the building.
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Post by coachcb on Mar 21, 2019 8:58:13 GMT -6
I would agree that on an elite staff, every paid coach who works in the building should put in fairly equal work. I try to follow that standard with my staff. Coordinators theoretically have less of the "wash the clothes, line the field" sort of stuff because they spend more time on preparation for practice and games. Those who are paid, but don't work at school are not going to be able to devote as much time because they have outside jobs. I do expect more of a time and work commitment from them than I do from unpaid volunteers. Most of us in high school are not going to be able to hire a complete staff that are all paid and in the building. Honestly, we make it clear to coaches that are out of the building that we have the same expectations of them as teachers. We're obviously flexible in certain areas (i.e.. they have to be at work) but we're fairly demanding of them outside of that.Our AD and HC make it clear to the guys out of the building that there's duties that need full filled and they need to reconsider coaching football if they can't meet certain obligations. I t sucks that they have to work on a Saturday but they still have their HUDL assignments to get done. It sucks that they might have to back to work after practice for a bit but they still need to have their drills lined out for the next day. We found that we need to be this way or the teaching staff ends up taking care of the majority of the scut work.
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Post by planck on Mar 21, 2019 9:04:22 GMT -6
Number 4 is the only area I'd question, simply because it's not possible that everybody is going to be spending the same amount of time. Efforts to do so are going to be contrived and devolve into bickering over accounting. Instead, I'd phrase it as "Every member of the staff is putting in the hours required to do an elite job." Simply put, do the work until the job is done right and to a high standard.
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Post by MICoach on Mar 21, 2019 9:42:54 GMT -6
The biggest thing I'm taking away from this is that you guys seem to have a lot more coaches in the building than we do, and for that I am jealous.
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Post by joelee on Mar 21, 2019 9:44:51 GMT -6
I've been on 2 different kind of staffs. Having a different workload for the HC and Coordinators and football junkies is a given. The ones where the guys who don't work as much but don't expect as much end up being fine. The ones where guys don't work as much but want a lot of input/responsibility/respect end up not being fine.
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Post by fantom on Mar 21, 2019 10:18:30 GMT -6
The biggest thing I'm taking away from this is that you guys seem to have a lot more coaches in the building than we do, and for that I am jealous. It's easy to compare the amount of time that you put in when everybody's a full time college coach or everybody works in the same school. That's not the case at many, if not most, schools these days. In my 40 year career I spent a grand total of two years coaching and teaching at the same school. I'm not being defensive. I was a coordinator and was one of the guys putting in the time. We were also lucky enough to have had a DL/strength coach who was a GREAT position coach. He worked the overnight shift at the shipyard, though. Could he put in the extra time? Hell no. He didn't HAVE any extra time.
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Post by coachkeating33 on Mar 21, 2019 10:21:38 GMT -6
its been my experience that to find a staff where more than 3 coaches seriously study the game and are excellent at fundamentals during their indy sessions is hard to find....
if you dont have coaches who know the game then all the "opinions," "time," "sweat," etc wont mean much.....I hate to say this but most hs coaches I have been around are terrible....good people but bad coaches
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Post by bigcoach38 on Mar 21, 2019 10:33:02 GMT -6
in regards to #4, in the area I coach in, mot schools have a strength and conditioning coach and usually that is all that person does, they might coach a position. They probably spend the most time with the kids year around, everyday in season and out. In the summer coaches come and support the strength coach, do drills, 7 on 7 stuff etc. OL/DL guys do not go to 7 on 7 competitions usually. During the season, from my experience it all depends on the efficiency of the staff. I have been on a staff where as DC the def staff was very efficient and on weekend meetings we were done sometimes hours before the offensive coaches....not our fault, a solid job was done etc.
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Post by planck on Mar 21, 2019 11:11:42 GMT -6
its been my experience that to find a staff where more than 3 coaches seriously study the game and are excellent at fundamentals during their indy sessions is hard to find.... if you dont have coaches who know the game then all the "opinions," "time," "sweat," etc wont mean much.....I hate to say this but most hs coaches I have been around are terrible....good people but bad coaches It's funny, we have a coach who is very good at sharing his opinion and quoting clinic speakers, but the results on the field are always lacking. He's never been a teacher, so I think that maybe he is very focused on what he knows and not what he can teach. That's kind of a big bridge for coaches to cross: What you know doesn't matter, what you can teach matters.
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Post by MICoach on Mar 21, 2019 11:13:41 GMT -6
The biggest thing I'm taking away from this is that you guys seem to have a lot more coaches in the building than we do, and for that I am jealous. It's easy to compare the amount of time that you put in when everybody's a full time college coach or everybody works in the same school. That's not the case at many, if not most, schools these days. In my 40 year career I spent a grand total of two years coaching and teaching at the same school. I'm not being defensive. I was a coordinator and was one of the guys putting in the time. We were also lucky enough to have had a DL/strength coach who was a GREAT position coach. He worked the overnight shift at the shipyard, though. Could he put in the extra time? Hell no. He didn't HAVE any extra time. Yeah I think at my last school just the HC and one assistant were actual school employees. Then we had four guys that taught at different schools and five guys that worked jobs outside of education. New school is a lot better - two coaches are teachers, one is head of security, one is a guidance counselor, one is a parapro, and I think three work in the district but in different buildings. Still a couple that work elsewhere but the kids see us a lot more here than they did at the old school.
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Post by coachkeating33 on Mar 21, 2019 11:14:23 GMT -6
its been my experience that to find a staff where more than 3 coaches seriously study the game and are excellent at fundamentals during their indy sessions is hard to find.... if you dont have coaches who know the game then all the "opinions," "time," "sweat," etc wont mean much.....I hate to say this but most hs coaches I have been around are terrible....good people but bad coaches It's funny, we have a coach who is very good at sharing his opinion and quoting clinic speakers, but the results on the field are always lacking. He's never been a teacher, so I think that maybe he is very focused on what he knows and not what he can teach. That's kind of a big bridge for coaches to cross: What you know doesn't matter, what you can teach matters. in my experience it has been both....they dont know and cant teach either
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Post by planck on Mar 21, 2019 11:15:45 GMT -6
It's funny, we have a coach who is very good at sharing his opinion and quoting clinic speakers, but the results on the field are always lacking. He's never been a teacher, so I think that maybe he is very focused on what he knows and not what he can teach. That's kind of a big bridge for coaches to cross: What you know doesn't matter, what you can teach matters. in my experience it has been both....they dont know and cant teach either Oh, you mean the guy who stands on the sideline yelling "Let's go!" and "Hit somebody!"
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Post by option1st on Mar 21, 2019 21:06:58 GMT -6
On the staffs I have been a part of you have your core coaches, the brain trust, the football junkies that put the time in and teach/instruct well. This core doesn’t change much from year to year. What changes are the fill ins, the young guy starting out, the social studies teacher that coached 5 years ago at some school and wants to be around the kids. The latter assist the core, spend more time with the young kids and run the JV. You may even send the kids up to the weight room with them while the core breaks down film or plans the practice week. The fill ins may have to miss a Sunday or two for a family event / hunting trip and its forgiven and accepted. The core’s family learned long ago that football duties will not be neglected, lol
With that said, although all roles are not equal as far as work load, preparation time and input, all roles are respected and appreciated amongst eachother. The fact of the matter is, there is a hierarchy in every coaches room across America and as members of that group, the sooner it’s recognized, understood and respected, the better for all involved.
If this in anyway comes across as derogatory towards the coaches i’ve Labeled as fill-ins, I sincerely do not mean it to be. We need them and appreciate the roles they gladly take on. In return, because we are not relying on them as much for preparation and instruction, they have leeway to miss certain functions and it’s not a problem. This sort of arrangement “works” for all involved. Whereas, that young coach or that causal social studies teacher may not want to be involved if they have to live up to the same time contstraints as core staff members do.
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Post by newhope on Mar 22, 2019 9:56:30 GMT -6
I would agree that on an elite staff, every paid coach who works in the building should put in fairly equal work. I try to follow that standard with my staff. Coordinators theoretically have less of the "wash the clothes, line the field" sort of stuff because they spend more time on preparation for practice and games. Those who are paid, but don't work at school are not going to be able to devote as much time because they have outside jobs. I do expect more of a time and work commitment from them than I do from unpaid volunteers. Most of us in high school are not going to be able to hire a complete staff that are all paid and in the building. Honestly, we make it clear to coaches that are out of the building that we have the same expectations of them as teachers. We're obviously flexible in certain areas (i.e.. they have to be at work) but we're fairly demanding of them outside of that.Our AD and HC make it clear to the guys out of the building that there's duties that need full filled and they need to reconsider coaching football if they can't meet certain obligations. I t sucks that they have to work on a Saturday but they still have their HUDL assignments to get done. It sucks that they might have to back to work after practice for a bit but they still need to have their drills lined out for the next day. We found that we need to be this way or the teaching staff ends up taking care of the majority of the scut work. It's great to be in that situation. I'm not. I'm not going to give up having a great coach because he can't devote the same time that an in the building coach can. They will watch film and they will prepare for practice--they'll do that because they are excellent coaches. I'm not going to replace them with lesser coaches simply because they can't devote the same hours. Some of those guys completely arrange their lives and their work schedules so that they can take care of the work needed to be done during the season. That may mean they can't put in the same hours in the offseason because they have to take care of their regular job.
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Post by coachkeating33 on Mar 22, 2019 10:09:37 GMT -6
in my experience it has been both....they dont know and cant teach either Oh, you mean the guy who stands on the sideline yelling "Let's go!" and "Hit somebody!" that isnt even the half of it
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Post by Coach Vint on Mar 22, 2019 13:09:49 GMT -6
When I coached up north we had five of us in the building, but only 3 were paid by the district. 2 were paid by our booster club. We had three additional guys paid by the booster club. 1 of those was a para. The other two had regular jobs that allowed them to coach. During the off-season we didn't ask hem to be there everyday. We asked them to be around 1 day a week for the weight room. We also asked them to go to one clinic with the staff. They also came to our staff meetings in the off-season. It worked very well for us.
Obviously in Texas everyone is a teacher in our building. We all have responsibilities and roles to play. The big thing the article was saying is to do your part. That is different in each place. Young coaches need to know that the jobs that suck need to be done just as well as every other job. Everything matters.
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Post by coachcb on Mar 24, 2019 10:27:00 GMT -6
Honestly, we make it clear to coaches that are out of the building that we have the same expectations of them as teachers. We're obviously flexible in certain areas (i.e.. they have to be at work) but we're fairly demanding of them outside of that.Our AD and HC make it clear to the guys out of the building that there's duties that need full filled and they need to reconsider coaching football if they can't meet certain obligations. I t sucks that they have to work on a Saturday but they still have their HUDL assignments to get done. It sucks that they might have to back to work after practice for a bit but they still need to have their drills lined out for the next day. We found that we need to be this way or the teaching staff ends up taking care of the majority of the scut work. It's great to be in that situation. I'm not. I'm not going to give up having a great coach because he can't devote the same time that an in the building coach can. They will watch film and they will prepare for practice--they'll do that because they are excellent coaches. I'm not going to replace them with lesser coaches simply because they can't devote the same hours. Some of those guys completely arrange their lives and their work schedules so that they can take care of the work needed to be done during the season. That may mean they can't put in the same hours in the offseason because they have to take care of their regular job.
Yes, our off-season expectations of these coaches are much different. The AD and the HC don't expect them to ask for work off to attend weight room sessions and we work our spring and summer workouts around the out-of-building coaches' schedules so that they can be there. But, during the season, they're expected to perform the same duties as the rest of the staff.
I have been worked in programs that had paid coaches that were out of the building and the HC didn't hold them to the same standard as the rest of the staff during the season. They were good guys and good coaches but it certainly made some thing difficult for the rest of us and there were some hard feelings on both ends.
One example sticks out in my mind.. We had a guy on staff who had a weird, hectic work schedule; he showed up to many practices late, wasn't expected to watch film on the weekends as he was working and came into Sunday meetings half way through. As the season wore on, the guy didn't really feel like a part of the staff so his opinion held less and less weight when it came to many things. The guy was a decent coach but, by the end of the season, the general opinion of the staff was "Dude, show up, coach your position and we'll handle the game planning and adjustments on Friday nights." This didn't sit well with the guy and more than a few "heated discussions" were born out of it on Sundays and Friday nights.
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Post by 3rdandlong on Mar 27, 2019 7:22:57 GMT -6
I didn’t say all, but I would say the majority need to be in there IMO And I don’t know you from Adam so don’t take this as a shot at you or the staff you were on but you telling me that you won state titles means nothing in terms of how good you are as coaches. You could have had dudes coming out of your a$$es for all I know Yeah, I debated whether to put that in but I thought that it mattered. Of course we had dudes. Nobody wins big without them. IMO, though, you can have a great staff where everybody's really good at his job while understanding that some guys have job or family obligations that limit their time commitments. I’m not a big fan of the guy who says he has family obligations. Don’t we ALL have family obligations? I’m not saying football is more important by any stretch but it rubs me the wrong way when I guy is constantly missing stuff and using family as his out while I’m still working. Pretty much what he is saying is that “my family is more important than your family.”
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Post by planck on Mar 27, 2019 7:36:47 GMT -6
Yeah, I debated whether to put that in but I thought that it mattered. Of course we had dudes. Nobody wins big without them. IMO, though, you can have a great staff where everybody's really good at his job while understanding that some guys have job or family obligations that limit their time commitments. I’m not a big fan of the guy who says he has family obligations. Don’t we ALL have family obligations? I’m not saying football is more important by any stretch but it rubs me the wrong way when I guy is constantly missing stuff and using family as his out while I’m still working. Pretty much what he is saying is that “my family is more important than your family.” I don't think you can be universal about that, though. Last year, my HC's wife gave birth to their first kid 1 week after camp started. I wasn't going to hold it against him if he took a few weeks to spend with them.
Now, a guy who says "I just like to eat dinner with my family"...well, wouldn't we all? Maybe coaching isn't the right thing for you, then, coach family dinner guy.
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Post by coachcb on Mar 27, 2019 8:48:35 GMT -6
Yeah, I debated whether to put that in but I thought that it mattered. Of course we had dudes. Nobody wins big without them. IMO, though, you can have a great staff where everybody's really good at his job while understanding that some guys have job or family obligations that limit their time commitments. I’m not a big fan of the guy who says he has family obligations. Don’t we ALL have family obligations? I’m not saying football is more important by any stretch but it rubs me the wrong way when I guy is constantly missing stuff and using family as his out while I’m still working. Pretty much what he is saying is that “my family is more important than your family.” During the season, I feel the expectations need to be consistent across the board: 1. Be there for the duration of practice. This really isn't negotiable unless something serious pops up; guys have to be there for practice. We don't plan any staff meetings once practice is over so guys can pretty much book once practice is finished. A few of us can hang around and make sure the kids are gone. 2. Skipping out on games isn't kosher. This is never a problem on Friday nights but it becomes an issue for other games. So, if you want to be the JV DC, then you need to be at all of the JV games, period. If you can't handle that, then you'll have fewer responsibilities. If you have a small staff with families, then rotate who handles calling the offense and the defense in these games. 3. Everyone has their assigned film to breakdown and they need to get it done. If everyone gets their film broken down on the weekends, we only need to meet for a few hours on Sunday at some point. We share Google Docs that everyone needs to contribute to so that we can hit the ground running on Sunday nights. Our meetings never lasted more than two hours because we just went through the Google Docs, game planned, set a practice plan for the week and went home.
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