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Post by coachdawhip on Nov 22, 2018 8:30:18 GMT -6
I can get with it. We didn't wear pads on Wednesday. I never wear full pads. If I can't get my cats to Friday all that prep won't matter. If you read more of his stuff he has adapted to weight training. They life Monday-Thursday in the off season. Sprint training on Monday and Wednesday.
Some of us dismiss his ideas.. Yet Hawk Tackle, Tip of Spear you love.
The idea is simple he wants his players to play fresh on Fridays!
Guy named @coachbdixon on Twitter is playing for a state championship hitting one day a week!
Yes Football is about Jimmies and Joe's. Figure out how to use yours!
So u guys who do a Sprint practice what does it look like?
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Post by 60zgo on Nov 22, 2018 10:05:10 GMT -6
I would encourage anyone to attend his Track Football Consortium. Go with an open mind. I have coached Football AND track for 18 years. Holler is a great guy. But if you know anything about track he associates with a ton of outlier type guys. People who are into neural theory and PhD types. If you go to one of his clinics you will be listening to a Westside Barbell guy and then an hour later listening to some PhD candidate telling you how dumb you are because you don't understand the krebs cyle as it relates to football workouts. And I have my ticket to TFC 8. I am also eager to get my RPR level 2 training. Soon I hope. I will only brave Chicago in the Summer. I'm going to 8.1 in Tampa. RPR is a game changer for sure.
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Post by 60zgo on Nov 22, 2018 10:32:09 GMT -6
So... my question for 60zgo and Davs , since you follow his advice, is a simple one: How do you figure "minimum effective dose with rest between reps" and put that into practice effectively enough to still adequately teach football-specific skills at a high level? For example, if a receiver is resting 4-5 plays in practice for every route he runs at full speed, and you only run 20 plays in team period, then he's only going to get 3-5 reps in a 10 minute period. When you've pared the playbook down as much as possible, but you're a passing team with 6 core concepts to rep, aren't those football specific skills and the nuances going to erode or never even develop? I'm all for taking as much of the grind out of practice as possible, including doing as little contact and unnecessary running as possible to keep guys fresh and healthy. My big concern is "what defines a 'minimum effective dose?'" and "how much of a tradeoff between skill development and explosiveness in games is there?" I have no idea! Ha... We came from TFS/Air Raid and it was go go go get a rep every 20 seconds. But now I'm wondering if we actually cost ourselves wins over the years. And I think we did. We made kids practice one energy system all week and then the game is played at a different speed... What's the minimum effective dose for your team? I honestly don't know. It's a science experiment. Go test and re-test. We don't throw the ball very much anymore. Monday is full pads/full go. We still do pat and go, but its full speed full sprint. Kid gets all the rest he wants. Ends up about a minute or so. They only get three reps in the drill. We have a team period vs the sled (Obviously not a sprint), and a team period vs Bags where everyone sprints 25 yards after their assignment. You have to identify your priorities and then build a practice around it. Figure out the minimum effective dose. Then accept the consequences for the trade offs. So for us it's become: 1A. Blocking/Contact 1B. Tackling 2. Special Teams 3. Speed/Recovery We run one front and one coverage defensively. We have a general adjustment for option teams and a general adjustment for Wing T. That's it. Offensively we a pretty simple. Run the SW and only have about five blocking schemes. You can still get a ton of things and concepts done on the non-sprint days if you wanted.
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Davs
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Post by Davs on Nov 22, 2018 13:08:58 GMT -6
So... my question for 60zgo and Davs , since you follow his advice, is a simple one: How do you figure "minimum effective dose with rest between reps" and put that into practice effectively enough to still adequately teach football-specific skills at a high level? For example, if a receiver is resting 4-5 plays in practice for every route he runs at full speed, and you only run 20 plays in team period, then he's only going to get 3-5 reps in a 10 minute period. When you've pared the playbook down as much as possible, but you're a passing team with 6 core concepts to rep, aren't those football specific skills and the nuances going to erode or never even develop? I'm all for taking as much of the grind out of practice as possible, including doing as little contact and unnecessary running as possible to keep guys fresh and healthy. My big concern is "what defines a 'minimum effective dose?'" and "how much of a tradeoff between skill development and explosiveness in games is there?" As of know I have only implemented it in the weight room. This next year we plan on going all in on it as a team. In the weight room it was great The gains we had were unbelievable. We would train 4 days a week, and were in and out in 45 minutes. We had many guys deadlifting high 300's into the 400's. Same with box squat. Also had 10 kids who could bench over 225. Team speed also improved. Not bad for a small school. We have started talking about what we want practice to look like this next year. I am going to get to hear Brad Dixon from Camp Point Central High School in Illinois talk about how he implements feed the cats in a few weeks. He is also at a small school so I am very interested in what he does. Just from discussions with my head coach and other assistants Tuesday or Wednesday will be the "hard" day with Thursday a very easy day.
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Post by utchuckd on Nov 23, 2018 7:02:40 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2018 7:43:48 GMT -6
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Post by bobgoodman on Nov 26, 2018 12:02:54 GMT -6
Another thing where I disagree w some coaches is that I'm not afraid of having too few eyes on the players while they practice. The way this comes up is in drills, where as far as feasible I like to do them in parallel rather than in series. That is, instead of at each station (if we even have stations) having the players wait in line to do a rep w 1, 2, or even more coaches watching, I like to get them paired (or whatever) off, each doing the drill at the same time, even if it means that for any given rep the odds are that no coach is watching it.
Not enough equipment? Not usu. a problem. Who says you can't practice tackling w/o a ball? It may not be as good that way, but it's better than waiting for one. Just as long as they remember which of them is the ballcarrier!
Those who disagree are afraid that the players will reinforce bad skills, or even do things dangerously, by doing something the wrong way w/o correction more often than they're corrected, & that they'd learn better by watching someone else do a good rep under immediate supervision. Although I do believe in doing at least a little bit of demonstr'n like that, I want to keep it to a minimum, & then return to it only remedially for the players who are doing badly. I'm not afraid they'll reinforce bad habits, because kids have a better idea than you might think of how well they're doing something, especially when it's 1-on-1. When they goof, they usu. know. They may need expert help fixing a problem, or they may not. The much-derided John "Blackjack" Reed makes this point, & I agree w him on it.
Meanwhile it gets them used to game pace. Unless they're deep on the depth chart, a specialty sub, or a super scrub, in a game they're not going to have waiting times like those experienced in the line-up-&-get-your-rep mode.
Plus, waiting in line is no fun. This is especially important to me, coaching children.
On top of all that, watching a whole line of players executing at once, trying to take in as much as possible for diagnosis, is good practice for in-game coaching. Do I miss a lot? Sure, but I'm getting better; with experience, it takes fewer reps for me to detect & diagnose a problem than it used to.
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Post by newhope on Nov 27, 2018 10:08:33 GMT -6
While some of what he says is worth thinking about, his whole approach turns me off. We don't practice for long periods of time, we don't condition at the end of practice, we do try to limit contact and rest their bodies, etc, etc, etc.....but his attack on coaches--much of unfounded, just some slant he has, turns me off. I wouldn't finish the article because of it. He starts by attacking the greats of the game, then goes into "always ends with conditioning", "90% are slow overachieving white guys"....and so on. I'm sure those attacks probably fuel the crowd he's really after--and it's not the "old school" coaches. Rather, it's those who aren't. Bet he wears a visor...and shades....and uses "bro" and "culture" a lot. YOU CANT CONVINCE THE END GAME IS NOT TO RID OF BLOCKING AND TACKLING AND THE SCOREBOARD! No one at this point would try to convince you of anything
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Post by CS on Nov 27, 2018 10:41:42 GMT -6
Another thing where I disagree w some coaches is that I'm not afraid of having too few eyes on the players while they practice. The way this comes up is in drills, where as far as feasible I like to do them in parallel rather than in series. That is, instead of at each station (if we even have stations) having the players wait in line to do a rep w 1, 2, or even more coaches watching, I like to get them paired (or whatever) off, each doing the drill at the same time, even if it means that for any given rep the odds are that no coach is watching it. Not enough equipment? Not usu. a problem. Who says you can't practice tackling w/o a ball? It may not be as good that way, but it's better than waiting for one. Just as long as they remember which of them is the ballcarrier! Those who disagree are afraid that the players will reinforce bad skills, or even do things dangerously, by doing something the wrong way w/o correction more often than they're corrected, & that they'd learn better by watching someone else do a good rep under immediate supervision. Although I do believe in doing at least a little bit of demonstr'n like that, I want to keep it to a minimum, & then return to it only remedially for the players who are doing badly. I'm not afraid they'll reinforce bad habits, because kids have a better idea than you might think of how well they're doing something, especially when it's 1-on-1. When they goof, they usu. know. They may need expert help fixing a problem, or they may not. The much-derided John "Blackjack" Reed makes this point, & I agree w him on it. Meanwhile it gets them used to game pace. Unless they're deep on the depth chart, a specialty sub, or a super scrub, in a game they're not going to have waiting times like those experienced in the line-up-&-get-your-rep mode. Plus, waiting in line is no fun. This is especially important to me, coaching children. On top of all that, watching a whole line of players executing at once, trying to take in as much as possible for diagnosis, is good practice for in-game coaching. Do I miss a lot? Sure, but I'm getting better; with experience, it takes fewer reps for me to detect & diagnose a problem than it used to. I do both and when we have one group going at a time it's rapid-fire so the wait is minimal. There are skills that can be taught as an entire group but certain things I believe just can't but can still be repped quickly
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Post by fshamrock on Nov 27, 2018 10:45:48 GMT -6
alright I'm intrigued you guys who are doing this, if you don't mind sharing, what does a typical monday practice like? I mean I get that it's supposed to be fast, but fast doing what? If I haven't installed my game plan yet because that's for the recovery day tuesday then what exactly am I doing on Monday and how am I doing it at full speed If I haven't taught it yet? is it all fundy's with very little Team/Hull periods I think it's cool to break out the quotation book and a thesaurus and write an article that goes against the norm a little bit, but what does the thing look like when it's actually executed?
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Davs
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Post by Davs on Nov 27, 2018 11:05:34 GMT -6
alright I'm intrigued you guys who are doing this, if you don't mind sharing, what does a typical monday practice like? I mean I get that it's supposed to be fast, but fast doing what? If I haven't installed my game plan yet because that's for the recovery day tuesday then what exactly am I doing on Monday and how am I doing it at full speed If I haven't taught it yet? is it all fundy's with very little Team/Hull periods I think it's cool to break out the quotation book and a thesaurus and write an article that goes against the norm a little bit, but what does the thing look like when it's actually executed? What we will probably do on Mondays will look something like this. We will start with some sprint drills, and then run either a 40 or flying 10M 2 to 3 times. We will finish with some weights. This will take about 45 minutes. After all that we will have the offense, defense, and special teams reports for the week. After reports we will go out to set up scout teams. That should take between 75 and 90 minutes. That's it time to go home.
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Post by 33coach on Nov 27, 2018 11:23:07 GMT -6
alright I'm intrigued you guys who are doing this, if you don't mind sharing, what does a typical monday practice like? I mean I get that it's supposed to be fast, but fast doing what? If I haven't installed my game plan yet because that's for the recovery day tuesday then what exactly am I doing on Monday and how am I doing it at full speed If I haven't taught it yet? is it all fundy's with very little Team/Hull periods I think it's cool to break out the quotation book and a thesaurus and write an article that goes against the norm a little bit, but what does the thing look like when it's actually executed? thats my biggest hangup too... how do you go fast when you dont have your gameplan in? seems like wasted reps. id do it a more traditional way of : Monday - Gameplan Tuesday - Reps Wednesday - Full Go and your gameplan monday can still be very fast and heavy... but you gotta give the kids an idea of what they will be looking at before you just go full go (thinking specificly for defense & Specials......offense it matters alittle less.)
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Post by fshamrock on Nov 27, 2018 11:39:56 GMT -6
I have tried a version of this with my own individual time. I understand the concept that only full speed reps create new neural pathways and create learning, and you can only do so many full speed reps in a given period of time, so I scheduled some indy drills with more rest built in, so like one kid going while the others rest...maximum recovery problem is that a bunch of kids standing in a line with nothing to do very quickly become a bunch of kids goofing off and driving everybody freaking nuts...I'm not sure where the balance is. I hate the idea that I'm grinding the kids and they aren't getting better because they are just aren't given enough time to rest and execute the drill at full speed, but I don't want my practice time to devolve into chaos like a bad 7th period class
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Post by fshamrock on Nov 28, 2018 13:52:33 GMT -6
I've decided now that I don't like the article, primarily for two reasons
1 - it way over stereotypes football coaches, we are a pretty diverse group for the most part with varied ways of thinking. Only people who coach other stuff and have football penis envy (because nobody bothers to show up to watch kids run track) think of us all as it one gelatinous blob of bible spewing war mongers, but I get the sensationalism for clicks, and it's fun to think that you might be on the forefront of a new and better way of doing things, but what you come to find out a lot of time is some of these old ways of doing things served a really good purpose. The issue is that since everybody uses these methods, the old problems that they solved are no longer readily visible, so we start to think that they don't exist and the methods are no longer necessary.
Go on ahead and have a practice where you do one "maximum speed" rep of team, then rest for 2 minutes with everybody just standing around, let me know how good that next rep is after you have managed to stop the slap boxing fights and get all the guys calmed down from how smelly the o-line kids fart was
and what is the plan when a kid messes up his assignment in Team? doing it again immediately is not advised because it would be a "sub-maximum" rep and therefore worthless, so let's wait 2 minutes and get that energy system back up, then run the play again full speed...ahh crap now this other kid did it wrong..ah man let's wait another 2 minutes and ......
2nd biggest reason is that this dude has no skin in the game, it's all theoretical, he apparently isn't coaching a football team right now, so he can say whatever the hell he wants is a best practice and is taking no risks with his reputation
hogwash I say..hogwash
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2018 14:03:46 GMT -6
I've decided now that I don't like the article, primarily for two reasons 1 - it way over stereotypes football coaches, we are a pretty diverse group for the most part with varied ways of thinking. Only people who coach other stuff and have football penis envy (because nobody bothers to show up to watch kids run track) think of us all as it one gelatinous blob of bible spewing war mongers, but I get the sensationalism for clicks, and it's fun to think that you might be on the forefront of a new and better way of doing things, but what you come to find out a lot of time is some of these old ways of doing things served a really good purpose. The issue is that since everybody uses these methods, the old problems that they solved are no longer readily visible, so we start to think that they don't exist and the methods are no longer necessary. Go on ahead and have a practice where you do one "maximum speed" rep of team, then rest for 2 minutes with everybody just standing around, let me know how good that next rep is after you have managed to stop the slap boxing fights and get all the guys calmed down from how smelly the o-line kids fart was and what is the plan when a kid messes up his assignment in Team? doing it again immediately is not advised because it would be a "sub-maximum" rep and therefore worthless, so let's wait 2 minutes and get that energy system back up, then run the play again full speed...ahh crap now this other kid did it wrong..ah man let's wait another 2 minutes and ...... 2nd biggest reason is that this dude has no skin in the game, it's all theoretical, he apparently isn't coaching a football team right now, so he can say whatever the hell he wants is a best practice and is taking no risks with his reputation hogwash I say..hogwash These were a couple of questions I had about it, too. I'm guessing his advice would be to correct a kid who screws up, but do it in the form of a walk-through or talk-through, rather than having him sprint another full speed rep. As far as having kids standing around... that's when you're supposed to be correcting them. I'm picturing that if you did get to use this, you couldn't let kids sit around for 2 minutes between reps. You'd line them up and rotate the second team through so they get like a minute or two of rest. The ideal for sprint training is like 7-8 minutes of rest between full speed sprints, but that's simply not going to work here. I guess you get "as much" rest between reps as is practical by maybe having kids walk back to get a rep or slowly jog instead of run back, so that part's not that big of a shock when I think about it. That model's going to be hard to pull off if you have like 2 or 3 coaches or 25 kids, but I can see his points there. You're going to have a hard time doing things "by his book," but you can use some of the ideas and get closer to his ideal. Still... I wonder if such few reps would be enough to improve and teach the skills you need to teach, or to work the little things it takes to be successful at a high level. I will say that I like his approach a lot better than the "line up and bang out as many reps as possible as fast as possible with no stopping to teach or correct mistakes" that started to come into vogue a few years ago. I've noticed that a lot of coaches who started that had some success at first, but over time their teams started getting really sloppy. As far as him having no skin in the game now, I believe he is still a freshman football head coach at the same school where he's head track coach. In that role, 3 days of short, just-the-basics practice makes a lot more sense.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2018 14:05:36 GMT -6
The point of the article isn't to tell you what you should be doing. The point of the article is to make you think about why you are doing things they way that you do them. And because this is the way that we have always done it is not an acceptable answer.
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Post by fshamrock on Nov 28, 2018 14:27:57 GMT -6
The point of the article isn't to tell you what you should be doing. The point of the article is to make you think about why you are doing things they way that you do them. And because this is the way that we have always done it is not an acceptable answer. I understand that I think the point I'm trying to make is that there is danger in the idea of contrarianism for it's own sake. There probably are several methods we use that were developed to solve problems that no longer exist, I"m all for eliminating those, but the tone of this article is pretty much "football coaches are mouth breathing idiots with no capacity for independent thought"...to which I disagree. Doesn't surprise me that it comes from a track guy....they hear so many "run fast and turn left" jokes that they over complicate their sport into near oblivion to try and sound like they are working hard. For proof of this assertion have the pole vault explained to you by any self proclaimed vaulting guru then clear your calendar for a day or so....holy moly who knew sticking a pole in the ground could be so technical I kid obviously, I know track is hard, and I like the gist of the article when it talks about practicing less, which I love because I really do hate practice, but some of this stuff is just not practical or executable, and I don't think we get anywhere when we start from the premise of "90% of (this group of people) are (these character traits)"
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2018 14:53:07 GMT -6
The point of the article isn't to tell you what you should be doing. The point of the article is to make you think about why you are doing things they way that you do them. And because this is the way that we have always done it is not an acceptable answer. And I get the part that he wants us examining "why do we do this?", which is great, but if you're going to do that and propose an alternative, which he does... the natural follow up question is "how, specifically, should we be doing this?" Personally, I'm glad I found that article and I'm glad that we've had this conversation on here. I want to put some of these ideas into practice, but I'd also like to do it in a way that works and serves the goals of practice, which is to prepare players to be successful in games. That has to be the top priority. It doesn't do me much good if my football players run slightly faster on Friday night if they're bad at actually playing football.
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Post by lilbuck1103 on Dec 2, 2018 20:08:39 GMT -6
The part that I am struggling to understand is the "no sprint" days. When working on this skills, how do you work on many of the skills by walking or talking? Special Teams?
Many of our kids learn best by doing and it will be hard to teach them a skill without allowing them to do it, or having them do it by walking.
I am fairly open minded, but how do you work your special teams if kids can't run? How do you work on tackling. I struggle having a kid walk into a roll tackle and feel like that is going to prep him for Friday night?
Anyone who has experience with this model care to share how they have adapted it or overcame some of these things to make it work with your program?
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Post by Victor on Dec 2, 2018 20:34:03 GMT -6
The part that I am struggling to understand is the "no sprint" days. When working on this skills, how do you work on many of the skills by walking or talking? Special Teams? Many of our kids learn best by doing and it will be hard to teach them a skill without allowing them to do it, or having them do it by walking. I am fairly open minded, but how do you work your special teams if kids can't run? How do you work on tackling. I struggle having a kid walk into a roll tackle and feel like that is going to prep him for Friday night? Anyone who has experience with this model care to share how they have adapted it or overcame some of these things to make it work with your program? If i aint wrong its ok to work with skills, he speaks about it in the two articles
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Post by coachdawhip on Dec 2, 2018 21:15:42 GMT -6
The part that I am struggling to understand is the "no sprint" days. When working on this skills, how do you work on many of the skills by walking or talking? Special Teams? Many of our kids learn best by doing and it will be hard to teach them a skill without allowing them to do it, or having them do it by walking. I am fairly open minded, but how do you work your special teams if kids can't run? How do you work on tackling. I struggle having a kid walk into a roll tackle and feel like that is going to prep him for Friday night? Anyone who has experience with this model care to share how they have adapted it or overcame some of these things to make it work with your program? No sprint doesn't mean not practicing and running. A no sprint day is already how you practice.
When you sprint you get FULL recovery.
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Post by bobgoodman on Dec 3, 2018 7:39:51 GMT -6
The part that I am struggling to understand is the "no sprint" days. When working on this skills, how do you work on many of the skills by walking or talking? Special Teams? Many of our kids learn best by doing and it will be hard to teach them a skill without allowing them to do it, or having them do it by walking. I am fairly open minded, but how do you work your special teams if kids can't run? How do you work on tackling. I struggle having a kid walk into a roll tackle and feel like that is going to prep him for Friday night? What I think is meant by "no sprint" is "no sprinting for the sake of sprinting", not "do everything at a walk".
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Post by lilbuck1103 on Dec 3, 2018 7:58:43 GMT -6
So basically every day is the same as a traditional practice week with the exception of Tuesday which has long rest periods and things are only done at absolute maximum speed? Monday, Wednesday and Thursday follow traditional practice plans, but no conditioning specific work. Can still be uptempo?
So Tuesday is a different animal. One rep at max speed, full, long recovery, and then another rep. For those of you who have implemented a similar schedule what does your Tuesday practice look like from a time standpoint? Does that lengthen the overall time you are at practice, even though the actual reps are less?
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