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Post by junior6589 on Oct 29, 2018 17:24:29 GMT -6
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Post by Defcord on Oct 29, 2018 19:24:17 GMT -6
Our playoff system is odd. We are a #3 seed but would have gotten better draws as a #4 or #5 seed. The system isn’t flawed just the region we crossover against is stacked relative to the #4 or #5 seeds.
The New Jersey thing is odd. Sucks a 7-1 team is out and 1-6 in. Computers are taking over the world.
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Post by dytmook on Oct 29, 2018 19:28:17 GMT -6
Did they not have a running estimate of what the draws would look like? Seems like they could have seen mid season something wasn't looking right and made an adjustment.
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Post by CS on Oct 30, 2018 3:20:20 GMT -6
I don’t understand why people make it so hard. The top however many teams in each league go to the playoffs. It’s not a difficult concept
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Post by Defcord on Oct 30, 2018 3:33:10 GMT -6
I don’t understand why people make it so hard. The top however many teams in each league go to the playoffs. It’s not a difficult concept When I was in Florida the top two teams made it. The problem there was that some districts had 5 teams and some had up to 8. Not sure how districts were formed but some of the third best finishers in 8 team districts felt they were left out unfairly. Indiana everyone is in and random draw, no seeding at all. I lobe the chaos.
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Post by agap on Oct 30, 2018 6:49:14 GMT -6
Everybody makes the playoffs in Minnesota.
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Post by coachcb on Oct 30, 2018 6:50:08 GMT -6
I don’t understand why people make it so hard. The top however many teams in each league go to the playoffs. It’s not a difficult concept Yup... Split the population classification into divisions by geography and the top teams from each go to the play-offs. It's pretty simple.
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Post by coachdavis11 on Oct 30, 2018 6:58:29 GMT -6
We have 8 regions and the top 4 qualify which gives us a 32 team playoff.. sometimes a team with a losing record gets in at the 4 spot but they did at least have to beat teams in their region and it wasn't decided by a computer
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Post by bobgoodman on Oct 30, 2018 8:47:47 GMT -6
Did they not have a running estimate of what the draws would look like? Seems like they could have seen mid season something wasn't looking right and made an adjustment. But if the playoffs are considered a competition, that'd be like deciding mid-season that a FG would be worth 5 points, and then changing the scores of subsequent games or even the games played already.
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Post by dytmook on Oct 30, 2018 8:57:22 GMT -6
I think we're trying to make logic out of an illogical system so yeah probably no good way to fix this mid season, but I do know this was stupid.
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Post by spos21ram on Oct 31, 2018 6:52:15 GMT -6
Why didn't NJ go over multiple scenarios to see if the system was valid. It would take a little time to go back and use previous years as an example or experiment, but it obviously was neeeed.
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Post by irishdog on Oct 31, 2018 8:27:26 GMT -6
Everybody makes the playoffs in Minnesota. Yeah, HS teams in MN only play 8 regular season games. Yeah, the last regular season game is on a Wednesday; the first round of playoffs is on the following Tuesday; and the second round is played that same week on Saturday. That's 3 games in 11 days. Some of the better teams receive first round byes, and more often than not the first round games on Tuesday are blowouts. I think the worst teams should play each other in the first round and the winners of those games play the first round byes in the second round.
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Post by agap on Oct 31, 2018 9:45:47 GMT -6
Everybody makes the playoffs in Minnesota. Yeah, HS teams in MN only play 8 regular season games. Yeah, the last regular season game is on a Wednesday; the first round of playoffs is on the following Tuesday; and the second round is played that same week on Saturday. That's 3 games in 11 days. Some of the better teams receive first round byes, and more often than not the first round games on Tuesday are blowouts. I think the worst teams should play each other in the first round and the winners of those games play the first round byes in the second round. Now that we've added another class, most #1 seeds get a bye and some #2 seeds. There is usually one or two games per year in the first round where a #7 seed beats a #2 seed. It doesn't happen a lot though.
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Post by CoachM58 on Oct 31, 2018 20:29:11 GMT -6
Everybody makes the playoffs in Minnesota. Same in Kentucky
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Post by 19delta on Nov 1, 2018 4:17:45 GMT -6
The Illinois system is pretty sound. 256 teams (about half of the schools in Illinois) qualify for the playoffs divided into 32-team brackets across 8 classes. Conference champs and all 6,7,8, and 9-win teams are automatic qualifiers. The remaining spots are filled by 5-win teams that can get an at-large bid if they have enough "playoff points" (opponent wins). I think the cut-off this year was 38 or so. 5-4 teams whose opponents won 38 games got in the playoffs. 5-4 teams whose opponents won less than 38 games did not get in the playoffs. There is a tiebreaker in there, too. Wins of defeated oppoents, I think. There were 18 5-4 that did not make the playoffs this year. After the 256 playoff teams are determined, they are divided into the 8 classes. Smallest 32 schools are 1a, next biggest are 2a...all the way up to 8a. Then teams are seeded in the bracket based on regular season record and playoff points. Most classes have a north-south split (16 teams on the north side of the bracket, 16 teams in the south side of the bracket) except for 7a and 8a which go 1-32 (I think) and that's because most of those schools are located in the suburbs around Chicago. It is a pretty good system but there have been criticisms: 1) About 15 years ago, the state high school association determined that the state champion would be a true representative of the entire state. What this meant is that the playoffs were set up so that the state title game would feature a team from the southern part of the state and a team from the northern part of the state, at least in classes 1a-6a. So, the two "best" teams in a class don't necessarily meet in the state title game. Often, the biggest games featuring the most talented teams occur in the quarterfinals or semifinals or even on occasion in the 2nd round. As a result, there have been some boring blowout state title games over the years (but some really great ones, too). 2) Seeding. It is all done by the numbers. Your seed comes down to your record and your playoff points. The result is that sometimes, teams with higher seeds have much tougher paths than teams with lower seeds. Case in point. Our team was the #3 seed in the bracket. We easily won our 1st-round playoff game (we were up 56-6 at halftime). However, the #2 seed in the bracket was in a dogfight and needed a touchdown within the last minute of the game to advance. The #1 seed in the bracket, the defending state 2a champion, has a very tough path. They are playing a team this week that has a couple FBS commits and if they win that game, they will be probably be playing a perennial Catholic football factory in the quarterfinals. 3) Interesting map reading. Ever year, it seems that there are a handful of teams that should clearly go either north or south but they end up going the opposite direction. Like I said...it is a pretty good system but it has issues, too. larrymoe...did I miss anything?
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ccox16
Junior Member
Posts: 343
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Post by ccox16 on Nov 1, 2018 5:46:00 GMT -6
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Post by waddles52 on Nov 1, 2018 7:44:36 GMT -6
I coach in Washington State.
We have five 11-man classifications and one 8-man classification. Generally, broken up by percentages with schools have the chance to opt-up. A lot of Seattle-area schools have 2A enrollment (third biggest class) but opt-up to 3A or 4A.
The 11-man classifications each have around 64 teams. Sixteen teams make it to "state" but most districts use week 10 as some sort of qualifier for state. We're 8-1 and playing a 3-6 team that we beat 44-14 in week 2 in a winner-to-state, loser-out game.
In the past, brackets were predetermined, essentially by geogrpahy. So before the season, you knew that the #1 seed from District 3 was going to play the #2 seed from District 4. That often led to state title contenders playing in round 1.
This year, for the first time, they are seeding the teams with a committee. 16 teams qualify based on district size and the committee will meet Sunday to seed. There are 3 committees. (4A/3A, 2A/1A and 2B/1B). Each committee is made of 10-ish coaches, some active and some retired, along with a few writers from newspapers and each committee has a guy that uses computer rankings. No one really knows what to expect come Sunday.
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Post by dytmook on Nov 1, 2018 7:52:01 GMT -6
I think Ohio does an okay job with the playoff system. It is not perfect but you get rewarded from playing bigger schools and schools that win games. Sure some teams try to load up on cupcakes early, but if they don't win games it doesn't really help you. For instance, we beat a D1 team (largest divison) when we were D4 and it ended up not helping us as much because the team ended up having a really crappy year even though we thought they should be able to be around .500 at worse. Yes there have been 4-6 teams to make the playoffs and make runs but those teams are generally playing murderous schedules so it's a bit more palatable. www.ohsaa.org/sports/ft/boys/rankcalc.htm
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Post by carookie on Nov 1, 2018 12:28:27 GMT -6
I am staunchly against any playoff system that divides playoff divisions based solely on previous success. Here in southern California we divide leagues up: some leagues have D1 teams (the highest) and D13 teams (the lowest); simply because one team has won in the past couple years while the others have not. Its CIFs chicken way of avoiding having to deal with big public schools poaching players.
Whats worse is they just draw these arbitrary lines that punish success and reward failure. If you are really good, we may move you up a division and play against schools that are naturally bigger than you, if you lose we move you down to a place where you could maybe win state.
Just keep leagues together, group playoffs by school population, and keep kids at their home schools.
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Post by dvo45 on Nov 1, 2018 12:37:19 GMT -6
I think Ohio does an okay job with the playoff system. It is not perfect but you get rewarded from playing bigger schools and schools that win games. Sure some teams try to load up on cupcakes early, but if they don't win games it doesn't really help you. For instance, we beat a D1 team (largest divison) when we were D4 and it ended up not helping us as much because the team ended up having a really crappy year even though we thought they should be able to be around .500 at worse. Yes there have been 4-6 teams to make the playoffs and make runs but those teams are generally playing murderous schedules so it's a bit more palatable. www.ohsaa.org/sports/ft/boys/rankcalc.htm9-1 Conference Champ sitting at home because they are ranked lower in their region...than a 6-4 team that did not win their conference? What sense does that make?
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Post by gccwolverine on Nov 1, 2018 12:46:45 GMT -6
I think Ohio does an okay job with the playoff system. It is not perfect but you get rewarded from playing bigger schools and schools that win games. Sure some teams try to load up on cupcakes early, but if they don't win games it doesn't really help you. For instance, we beat a D1 team (largest divison) when we were D4 and it ended up not helping us as much because the team ended up having a really crappy year even though we thought they should be able to be around .500 at worse. Yes there have been 4-6 teams to make the playoffs and make runs but those teams are generally playing murderous schedules so it's a bit more palatable. www.ohsaa.org/sports/ft/boys/rankcalc.htmI'm from Ohio, been in OK, IL, and now GA. Ohio is the best system I've seen or come to know about anywhere. District play for you states that do that SUCKS.
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Post by gccwolverine on Nov 1, 2018 12:50:15 GMT -6
I think Ohio does an okay job with the playoff system. It is not perfect but you get rewarded from playing bigger schools and schools that win games. Sure some teams try to load up on cupcakes early, but if they don't win games it doesn't really help you. For instance, we beat a D1 team (largest divison) when we were D4 and it ended up not helping us as much because the team ended up having a really crappy year even though we thought they should be able to be around .500 at worse. Yes there have been 4-6 teams to make the playoffs and make runs but those teams are generally playing murderous schedules so it's a bit more palatable. www.ohsaa.org/sports/ft/boys/rankcalc.htm9-1 Conference Champ sitting at home because they are ranked lower in their region...than a 6-4 team that did not win their conference? What sense does that make? plenty..... Win games against teams of equal or larger size that win games. That 9-1 "conference champ" could be a D3 school - 3rd largest classification in a league with a bunch of D4 and D5 schools who aren't any good and didn't win any games. While that 6-4 team could be a D7 school smallest classification in a league with all D5's who won a ton of games. with 32 teams getting in generally if you've won 9 or 8 games your pretty much in. But I think this system does the best job of - 1 making every game on the schedule count and 2 - getting the best teams in - beat teams equal to or greater than your size who beat teams. You shouldn't be rewarded for playing scaboochies. Also you only get points for game you've won or your opponent won. You get don't get credit for losses. And it makes every game in the season matter. I can't stand district play where potentially only 5 games of your season actually matter.
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Post by dytmook on Nov 1, 2018 13:58:01 GMT -6
I think Ohio does an okay job with the playoff system. It is not perfect but you get rewarded from playing bigger schools and schools that win games. Sure some teams try to load up on cupcakes early, but if they don't win games it doesn't really help you. For instance, we beat a D1 team (largest divison) when we were D4 and it ended up not helping us as much because the team ended up having a really crappy year even though we thought they should be able to be around .500 at worse. Yes there have been 4-6 teams to make the playoffs and make runs but those teams are generally playing murderous schedules so it's a bit more palatable. www.ohsaa.org/sports/ft/boys/rankcalc.htm9-1 Conference Champ sitting at home because they are ranked lower in their region...than a 6-4 team that did not win their conference? What sense does that make? Almost any system will have outliers. Is it perfect? No, but it's better than a lot of the systems I see here. How do you decide between two 8-2 teams if you just let people pick? It becomes arbitrary. I'd be ticked if we didn't get in at 9-1 for sure. We've missed because teams we thought were going to get us points didn't It's not perfect but I think it at least gives the coaches some control and you know what to expect. I can think of a couple of tweaks maybe but I don't think it would eliminate every problem.
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Post by carookie on Nov 1, 2018 14:06:48 GMT -6
I think Ohio does an okay job with the playoff system. It is not perfect but you get rewarded from playing bigger schools and schools that win games. Sure some teams try to load up on cupcakes early, but if they don't win games it doesn't really help you. For instance, we beat a D1 team (largest divison) when we were D4 and it ended up not helping us as much because the team ended up having a really crappy year even though we thought they should be able to be around .500 at worse. Yes there have been 4-6 teams to make the playoffs and make runs but those teams are generally playing murderous schedules so it's a bit more palatable. www.ohsaa.org/sports/ft/boys/rankcalc.htm9-1 Conference Champ sitting at home because they are ranked lower in their region...than a 6-4 team that did not win their conference? What sense does that make? It doesnt. If you win your League, or Conference, or whatever you call that small group of 5-8 teams you play against, you should automatically be in. Even if all those teams are populated by backup JV kids who couldnt get a snap off. If a playoff system cannot account for that because it does not have enough room then it needs to add a new classification, or extra round. If it chooses not to because of power points then its flawed, winning a league should at the least earn you a postseason bid as there needs to be some credence to winning on the field.
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Post by fantom on Nov 1, 2018 14:18:32 GMT -6
In Virginia our system is pretty straightforward. We have six classifications, divided up strictly by enrollment (Public and private schools are almost completely separate). Each classification is divided up geographically into four regions. Eight teams in each region make the playoffs. That comes to roughly half of each region. Playoff berths and seeding are decided by power points (Wins, opponent's wins, etc). If you get to the state championship you play five playoff games: three regional, semis, finals.
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Post by Chris Clement on Nov 1, 2018 14:23:30 GMT -6
Some questions here:
Was OPs article written by a 15-year old getting credit for his creative writing class?
Who the hell is setting point spreads on high school football games, and who the hell is laying bets?
Obviously this is the extreme case of 7-1, 1-6; while it seems like a pretty awful system I still have to assume the 7-1 team played an abysmal schedule and the 1-6 team had a murderers row? Can anyone confirm?
This is a huge area for math research, but the idea of point spreads is really bizarre because point spreads tend to reflect prior expectations that already include all available information. It creates a feedback loop. If you beat the spread you’ll just face a tougher spread next week and over the long run every team goes .500 against the spread even if their record is nowhere near .500. This is just bad, bad math.
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Post by carookie on Nov 1, 2018 14:52:24 GMT -6
Some questions here: Was OPs article written by a 15-year old getting credit for his creative writing class? Who the hell is setting point spreads on high school football games, and who the hell is laying bets?Obviously this is the extreme case of 7-1, 1-6; while it seems like a pretty awful system I still have to assume the 7-1 team played an abysmal schedule and the 1-6 team had a murderers row? Can anyone confirm? This is a huge area for math research, but the idea of point spreads is really bizarre because point spreads tend to reflect prior expectations that already include all available information. It creates a feedback loop. If you beat the spread you’ll just face a tougher spread next week and over the long run every team goes .500 against the spread even if their record is nowhere near .500. This is just bad, bad math. This website sets spreads for every game in California- calpreps.com/ (based on a formula though, not like an acutal Vegas line trying to get people to lay a bet). On a side note, I remember being out with some friends after a game in HS. A grown man came up to our QB out of nowhere shook his hand and thanked him for 'making him a lot of money tonight'. It was bonkers, but that was over 20 years ago. I imagine with all the HS football fan boards now it has gotten worse.
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Post by fantom on Nov 1, 2018 14:56:27 GMT -6
After we won a state championship game a guy who used to coach took the staff out for drinks. Turned out that he won a bundle. On the down side after they lost a big game somebody fired shots outside of the trailer where the staff was meeting.
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Post by silkyice on Nov 1, 2018 16:03:22 GMT -6
Some questions here: Was OPs article written by a 15-year old getting credit for his creative writing class? Who the hell is setting point spreads on high school football games, and who the hell is laying bets?Obviously this is the extreme case of 7-1, 1-6; while it seems like a pretty awful system I still have to assume the 7-1 team played an abysmal schedule and the 1-6 team had a murderers row? Can anyone confirm? This is a huge area for math research, but the idea of point spreads is really bizarre because point spreads tend to reflect prior expectations that already include all available information. It creates a feedback loop. If you beat the spread you’ll just face a tougher spread next week and over the long run every team goes .500 against the spread even if their record is nowhere near .500. This is just bad, bad math. This website sets spreads for every game in California- calpreps.com/ (based on a formula though, not like an acutal Vegas line trying to get people to lay a bet). On a side note, I remember being out with some friends after a game in HS. A grown man came up to our QB out of nowhere shook his hand and thanked him for 'making him a lot of money tonight'. It was bonkers, but that was over 20 years ago. I imagine with all the HS football fan boards now it has gotten worse. 20 years ago some of the dads called Vegas and got a line on our game vs a huge cross town rival. Found out after we won. It was a huge game we won in the final seconds. I am thinking it was over a $10,000 dollar bet. Found out on a Monday at another school that we won the cleaning lady’s husband $3000. This was at a DIRT POOR school. Wow.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2018 17:53:40 GMT -6
I didnt think it could get any worse over there, Jersey has the weirdest playoff formula ive ever seen Seems like 3/4 of the schools in the state make the playoffs
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