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Post by coachcb on Aug 20, 2018 14:30:56 GMT -6
We coach the same way; multiple groups going and teaching on the fly. BUT, we do so after a few days of slowing things down so the kids understand what is being emphasized through the drill and how to do them correctly. Within most drills, the kids may screw up one or two movements but there's at least one movement that they're performing correctly so the rep isn't a complete waste.
One of two things is going on here:
1. The guy hasn't bought into the philosophy and is choosing to coach "his" way. This isn't acceptable for you and he needs to understand this. If the kids are doing things correctly the majority of the time, then he's wasting a lot of time by stopping and going through the drills again and again.
2. The guy hasn't thoroughly explained the drills or the drill structure to the kids, they're making a ton of mistakes and he needs to correct it. We kick it into high-gear pretty quickly and the kids know that each drill has two-three points of emphasis that they focus on. We don't even have to tell them where they screwed up in a drill; they know it after we've mentioned it and corrected it once or twice. Our starting H-back has a helluva time getting his hands inside on his blocks and it only took him three practices worth of reps to figure it out. On Saturday, he was drilling a kick out block, had his hands on the outside of the frame and, before I could even correct it, he hollered:"I'm gonna get a damn holding call!!" and smacked himself upside the helmet.
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Post by carookie on Aug 20, 2018 14:35:32 GMT -6
I've done it that way for awhile now and it seems to fit best, but I am interested in hearing why you don't like it. Here is my line of thinking: I have always felt the major variable we are against is time (only so many hours in the practice); in addition we are what we repeatedly do- not what we are repeatedly told or watch. Combining those two together the best thing we can have players do is repeatedly perform the fundamental tasks that are most important to their position. When they are wrong, correct them quickly and have them repeat correctly, but after a few weeks those mistakes tend to be minor and not take much correction because they have repeatedly performed the task so often it has become second nature. Moreover, through repetition of the movements they have become more proficient at them and are better able to execute them in a game situation. Sure it ends up being less coach and more player, but I feel that is best. What is it about this that you don't like, don't feel is best for the players, or wouldn't do again?
Have you explained it to him like that? I'm curious how old this coach is, it sounds like he hasn't bought into this philosophy (which leaves your options somewhere around selling your philosophy or commanding your philosophy [obviously, the benefit of selling it is that you can avoid the friction that commanding it will bring])
Not too old (though that is relative) early 50s, spent a lot of time coaching younger kids (10yo) but does have some HS. I have explained it like that to him, I dont think its him intentionally resisting as much as it is not recognizing.
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Post by Defcord on Aug 20, 2018 19:48:25 GMT -6
How are his kids performing? If he is getting the job done I would spare him flexibility.
I hate when guys are out there putting on a clinic talk but sometimes kids actual are more confident having heard the coaching.
In my Indy groups we have our everyday stuff that we are going to hit. For me I am not stopping the drill for anything because we do it so much it is just fine tuning. We are correcting but we aren’t stopping. But there are some correction type drills that I will use if something we find critical isn’t showing up like we want. I will slow these down some and explain the why a little more. Now it’s going to be a brief slowing down but sometimes the kids might feel like they need to hear it so I try to reinforce the reason for the drill and the importance of the skills execution.
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Post by carookie on Aug 20, 2018 20:41:05 GMT -6
How are his kids performing? If he is getting the job done I would spare him flexibility. I hate when guys are out there putting on a clinic talk but sometimes kids actual are more confident having heard the coaching. In my Indy groups we have our everyday stuff that we are going to hit. For me I am not stopping the drill for anything because we do it so much it is just fine tuning. We are correcting but we aren’t stopping. But there are some correction type drills that I will use if something we find critical isn’t showing up like we want. I will slow these down some and explain the why a little more. Now it’s going to be a brief slowing down but sometimes the kids might feel like they need to hear it so I try to reinforce the reason for the drill and the importance of the skills execution. So-So, the veterans are on point and doing what I thought they would be. Newbies are struggling. FWIW I think he just has a hard time recognizing time. Today at practice as we were finishing up in the weight room: ME: "Coach, in one minute send them into coach ----'s room I want to show them some things on the white board." I walk off to draw up the stuff, wait 4 minutes and finally walk outside to see him giving a speech to all the players in the weight room. "Coach send them over, NOW!" I think he just has a limited concept of time that passes.
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Post by mdunham on Aug 20, 2018 21:22:48 GMT -6
Maybe this Coach just doesn't "know" how you want it to operate...maybe he thinks/feels he is living up to the expectations you gave him - but if he hasn't seen how you/other staff members operate there how can he know how his group needs to run? I guess at this point for you it's probably impossible to pull him from his group to watch another. Just like the kids some operate better visually than through verbal or written communication.
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Post by coachcb on Aug 21, 2018 6:47:54 GMT -6
Our LBs are struggling with their pass drops right now, especially because we're doing some pattern reading/marrying routes. It was very evident in our scrimmage last Saturday and we decided to really hammer it home in a skelly session yesterday. We agreed to give the kids FIVE walk-through reps and then go full speed. We stopped and coached things up during those FIVE reps and then went full tilt. I was watching the inside backer's, another coach was watching the outside guys and the third was on the DBs. Between reps, we'd run over to a player, quickly correct an issue and then throw another round at them. It was an ugly session to start off (some of them really didn't have a clue..) but we ended it with four picks by the LBs in the last six plays. And, all four of those picks were directly due to coaching points we gave on the fly.
We'll hit them with the same thing today but we're going to ditch the walk-through reps. Get 'em out there, get 'em flying around, PAY ATTENTION AS A COACH, and correct mistakes on the fly.
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Post by 3rdandlong on Aug 21, 2018 8:52:28 GMT -6
Quick question, did this coach finish playing recently?
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Post by 53 on Aug 21, 2018 9:17:57 GMT -6
Does this coach own a watch
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Post by carookie on Aug 21, 2018 9:36:09 GMT -6
Quick question, did this coach finish playing recently? Nope, older than me. He has mostly coached youth ball, with one previous year of HS ball.
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Post by silkyice on Aug 21, 2018 10:17:47 GMT -6
Quick question, did this coach finish playing recently? Nope, older than me. He has mostly coached youth ball, with one previous year of HS ball. My suggestion: Tell him he has 27 minutes (I think that is his time), each day the rest of the week. Go at his own pace and teach it. Next week, the teaching is done. Go at your pace and only minor quick corrections should be needed.
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Post by 54695469 on Aug 21, 2018 13:57:33 GMT -6
Tell him that you're done speaking with him about this...and that you're going to leave him to coach as he sees fit...and that if his position group doesn't stud out this season, he will be looking for another job and you will hire a new coach to take his spot.
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Post by coachklee on Aug 21, 2018 18:58:40 GMT -6
So...your AC's are drillers and not teachers who coach a kid to get it right?What if a kid goes full out in the drill but does it wrong? There's no one correcting him, and he takes the wrong way to do things into the game. If I were an AC...I couldn't work that way. I'd rather coach than simply run drills. No, coach corrects, just does not pause the whole drill for a minute to correct one player. Coach on the fly and fast. Instead of just having 1 kid go at a time have three. I don't see how utilizing drills makes one a driller and not a teacher. Do you not use drills? I am not saying not to correct, I am saying be efficient in your correction and coach fast. I’m with carookie. I used to worry about coaching every single rep of Indy with groups alternating & giving a ton of feedback. Then I watched my HC run his DB drills. Nobody takes a break. Every guy is working to keep his horizontal & vertical leverage on WR stems simultaneously. Every guy then works press tech on the WE simultaneously. Then every guy does trail technique simultaneously. Early season he coaches it more & corrects more & it maybe takes him 15 minutes a day. By week 1 it is down to 10 minutes. By week 5 it is done in about 6 minutes. I took the same approach with the DL & we’ve improved tremendously. We have a bunch of juniors right now that spill the {censored} out of any Trap they see because they worked so much Spill Drill in practice last year. The same juniors do a great job splitting double teams or at least stalemating them keeping LBs clean. They wouldn’t be ready to play right now if it wasn’t for the at least an extra 4 reps a day that happened at that pace over the course of 3 days a week & over 11 weeks of practice (easily 132 over the course I the year). Is it perfect...no. Still you can get so much more from a couple non-negotiable fundamentals constantly taught coaching on the fly with as many guys moving as possible. Most importantly, you’ve really coached it up after you get guys going knowing the drill & understanding it to the level that they can self-coach (I didn’t run the circle tight enough...I didn’t flip my hips fast enough) is the key. Then you know they get it & will do it on a Friday night...or this Thursday!
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Post by familyman56 on Aug 22, 2018 8:11:17 GMT -6
No, coach corrects, just does not pause the whole drill for a minute to correct one player. Coach on the fly and fast. Instead of just having 1 kid go at a time have three. I don't see how utilizing drills makes one a driller and not a teacher. Do you not use drills? I am not saying not to correct, I am saying be efficient in your correction and coach fast. I’m with carookie . I used to worry about coaching every single rep of Indy with groups alternating & giving a ton of feedback. Then I watched my HC run his DB drills. Nobody takes a break. Every guy is working to keep his horizontal & vertical leverage on WR stems simultaneously. Every guy then works press tech on the WE simultaneously. Then every guy does trail technique simultaneously. Early season he coaches it more & corrects more & it maybe takes him 15 minutes a day. By week 1 it is down to 10 minutes. By week 5 it is done in about 6 minutes. I took the same approach with the DL & we’ve improved tremendously. We have a bunch of juniors right now that spill the {censored} out of any Trap they see because they worked so much Spill Drill in practice last year. The same juniors do a great job splitting double teams or at least stalemating them keeping LBs clean. They wouldn’t be ready to play right now if it wasn’t for the at least an extra 4 reps a day that happened at that pace over the course of 3 days a week & over 11 weeks of practice (easily 132 over the course I the year). Is it perfect...no. Still you can get so much more of a couple non-negotiable fundamentals taught coaching on the fly with as many guys moving as possible. Most importantly, you’ve really coached it up after you get guys going knowing the drill & understanding it to the level that they can self-coach (I didn’t run the circle tight enough...I didn’t flip my hips fast enough) is the key. Then you know they get it & will do it on a Friday night...or this Thursday! I agree with this as well - give your drills as much scale (multiple rep stations) as possible that you can efficiently float in between. If your drills need equipment - be greedy - get to the shed early to make sure you have enough shields, cones, etc - you can always share stuff back to other coaches later.
Focus your attention on one kid each rep, even though you have multiple kids repping at once. Over the course of 5 min you can pretty much get feedback/correction to every kid that needs it as you float between the stations.
Compartmentalize the coaching down to key words or phrases that you ingrain understanding into them early on. This helps me coach on the fly and not get mired in 2 min coaching diatribes that the kids tune out after 10 seconds. Don't assume that they know what the phrases mean, however. (I didn't know what "choke up" meant until my 2nd year of little league).
Also, a key for me is paying attention to their breathing. If I can't hear them breathing, they are standing in line too long. We don't have separate conditioning sessions, so it helps in that aspect as well to know that they are getting pushed physically.
I'm by no means an expert, this is my second year on varsity after years of coaching youth ball. It's just what's worked for me to help me get up the learning curve (still have a long way to go!)
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Post by coachcb on Aug 22, 2018 10:09:45 GMT -6
Compartmentalize the coaching down to key words or phrases that you ingrain understanding into them early on. This helps me coach on the fly and not get mired in 2 min coaching diatribes that the kids tune out after 10 seconds. Don't assume that they know what the phrases mean, however. (I didn't know what "choke up" meant until my 2nd year of little league).
This is hugely important when running INDY drills. The majority of drills should only emphasize a few key coaching points that the kids need to focus on. My rule of thumb: if a drill involves more than three coaching points, then it needs to be simplified.
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Post by fkaboneyard on Aug 22, 2018 10:27:57 GMT -6
Quick question, did this coach finish playing recently? Nope, older than me. He has mostly coached youth ball, with one previous year of HS ball.
There's your reason for his behavior. He needs to understand he's not coaching youth ball anymore.
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Post by Defcord on Aug 22, 2018 10:56:00 GMT -6
Nope, older than me. He has mostly coached youth ball, with one previous year of HS ball.
There's your reason for his behavior. He needs to understand he's not coaching youth ball anymore.
I hope youth ball coaches don't just talk through individual periods. I would think youth coaches should almost talk less because their kids have a smaller ability to reason on why the drill is useful.
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Post by coachcb on Aug 22, 2018 11:17:46 GMT -6
There's your reason for his behavior. He needs to understand he's not coaching youth ball anymore.
I hope youth ball coaches don't just talk through individual periods. I would think youth coaches should almost talk less because their kids have a smaller ability to reason on why the drill is useful. I have done very little talking when coaching youth or middle school ball. We're running simple, limited schemes that require limited skills and, as such, limited coaching points.
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Post by carookie on Aug 22, 2018 12:04:48 GMT -6
There's your reason for his behavior. He needs to understand he's not coaching youth ball anymore.
I hope youth ball coaches don't just talk through individual periods. I would think youth coaches should almost talk less because their kids have a smaller ability to reason on why the drill is useful. The most talkative coaches I have ever worked with are those who spent time coaching in the NFL or college. But I imagine the gift of gab can hit us all. Another coach once told me, "words are like money, the more that is out there the less they are worth."
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 22, 2018 18:22:22 GMT -6
but I give 27 minutes for Indy time and at the end he usually only gets half way done. If he can't get the job done in 27 mins. that is a serious problem. I have never had more than ten usually more like 5. Only 5-10 minutes of Individual practice? Not my kind of program.
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 22, 2018 18:30:00 GMT -6
FWIW I think he just has a hard time recognizing time. Today at practice as we were finishing up in the weight room: ME: "Coach, in one minute send them into coach ----'s room I want to show them some things on the white board." I walk off to draw up the stuff, wait 4 minutes and finally walk outside to see him giving a speech to all the players in the weight room. "Coach send them over, NOW!" I think he just has a limited concept of time that passes. Is it a hard time recognizing the passage of time, or is it that he doesn't understand the fact that precision is important to your program? Does he recognize that when you say "in one minute" you mean in 60 seconds, and not the more colloquial "in a somewhat short period of time" definition?
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Post by silkyice on Aug 22, 2018 19:00:22 GMT -6
If he can't get the job done in 27 mins. that is a serious problem. I have never had more than ten usually more like 5. Only 5-10 minutes of Individual practice? Not my kind of program. Jeez, I spent 10 minutes on just taking on kickouts today.
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Post by carookie on Aug 22, 2018 20:59:37 GMT -6
FWIW I think he just has a hard time recognizing time. Today at practice as we were finishing up in the weight room: ME: "Coach, in one minute send them into coach ----'s room I want to show them some things on the white board." I walk off to draw up the stuff, wait 4 minutes and finally walk outside to see him giving a speech to all the players in the weight room. "Coach send them over, NOW!" I think he just has a limited concept of time that passes. Is it a hard time recognizing the passage of time, or is it that he doesn't understand the fact that precision is important to your program? Does he recognize that when you say "in one minute" you mean in 60 seconds, and not the more colloquial "in a somewhat short period of time" definition? That may be part of it, he is starting to catch on and I have explained to him about how it is important to be on time with things.
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CoachSP
Sophomore Member
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Post by CoachSP on Aug 23, 2018 6:47:35 GMT -6
Does the coach have any meeting time outside of practice where he can teach the points he wants to get across? Are the drills filmed such that he can point out what he wants to teach at such a meeting? Nah, small private school that wouldnt be down for the extra time and he is off campus I've coached for a guy who wanted to go fast. It worked because part of his philosophy was to get a lot of reps then correct on film. We'd film drill work. I work for a guy now who gives us 30 min of Indy. The emphasis is getting it right and teaching fundamentals. Like a previous poster said, if we messed up a certain skill in team, then I will drill that technique the next day to make sure it is understood. I don't want to take stabs at your methods. To each his own, but maybe the drill work is over-scripted? Just a thought.
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CoachSP
Sophomore Member
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Post by CoachSP on Aug 23, 2018 6:53:19 GMT -6
Our LBs are struggling with their pass drops right now, especially because we're doing some pattern reading/marrying routes. It was very evident in our scrimmage last Saturday and we decided to really hammer it home in a skelly session yesterday. We agreed to give the kids FIVE walk-through reps and then go full speed. We stopped and coached things up during those FIVE reps and then went full tilt. I was watching the inside backer's, another coach was watching the outside guys and the third was on the DBs. Between reps, we'd run over to a player, quickly correct an issue and then throw another round at them. It was an ugly session to start off (some of them really didn't have a clue..) but we ended it with four picks by the LBs in the last six plays. And, all four of those picks were directly due to coaching points we gave on the fly. We'll hit them with the same thing today but we're going to ditch the walk-through reps. Get 'em out there, get 'em flying around, PAY ATTENTION AS A COACH, and correct mistakes on the fly. I like the idea of being able to adjust. Sound like yall were struggling, did a quick walk thru, and started repping again. We did a similar thing just yesterday. Sometimes a quick walk and talk session gets things back on point.
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Post by coachcb on Aug 23, 2018 7:44:53 GMT -6
Our LBs are struggling with their pass drops right now, especially because we're doing some pattern reading/marrying routes. It was very evident in our scrimmage last Saturday and we decided to really hammer it home in a skelly session yesterday. We agreed to give the kids FIVE walk-through reps and then go full speed. We stopped and coached things up during those FIVE reps and then went full tilt. I was watching the inside backer's, another coach was watching the outside guys and the third was on the DBs. Between reps, we'd run over to a player, quickly correct an issue and then throw another round at them. It was an ugly session to start off (some of them really didn't have a clue..) but we ended it with four picks by the LBs in the last six plays. And, all four of those picks were directly due to coaching points we gave on the fly. We'll hit them with the same thing today but we're going to ditch the walk-through reps. Get 'em out there, get 'em flying around, PAY ATTENTION AS A COACH, and correct mistakes on the fly. I like the idea of being able to adjust. Sound like yall were struggling, did a quick walk thru, and started repping again. We did a similar thing just yesterday. Sometimes a quick walk and talk session gets things back on point. IMO, it's the best way to do things. We explain INDY drills in detail and go through them at half speed ONCE and then it's full-tilt, working on the fly. A kid will redo the rep with an emphasis on one or two coaching points if they messed it up. Shell session like inside run and skelly are taught the same way. We've chalked and repped the run fits and pass drops before hand, go through slowly and then get after it. Some coaches don't realize that many kids NEED to fail at a skill/assignment in order to truly get it through their thick heads. Case in point; our younger DEs are struggling to wrong arm pullers and our OL and H-backs were kicking the chit out of them during inside run. They've gotten turns at it during INDY time and now it's time to apply it. One kid got ear-holed again and again on Counter and Power and I had one of two decisions; pull him out and go through it with him or coach him on the fly. I coached him on the fly and told him "look, you either do what you've been coached or you keep getting the crap beat out of you. It's your call but I'M NOT PULLING YOU OUT OF THIS DRILL". That sunk in and he finally started wrong-arming correctly. The fear of getting knocked on his a-- served as an excellent motivator.
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Post by carookie on Aug 23, 2018 8:11:19 GMT -6
Nah, small private school that wouldnt be down for the extra time and he is off campus I've coached for a guy who wanted to go fast. It worked because part of his philosophy was to get a lot of reps then correct on film. We'd film drill work. I work for a guy now who gives us 30 min of Indy. The emphasis is getting it right and teaching fundamentals. Like a previous poster said, if we messed up a certain skill in team, then I will drill that technique the next day to make sure it is understood. I don't want to take stabs at your methods. To each his own, but maybe the drill work is over-scripted? Just a thought. We do go over things slowly and walk them and explain them....we just do that in Spring and early Summer. We have been going at it for months now, the time for installing and walking through (in regards to EDDs) has long since passed. This doesn't mean that there still won't be errors (there always will be), but when minor errors come up they shouldn't require speeches and stopping everything for one small mistake. Fix it quickly and move on is my thought
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CoachSP
Sophomore Member
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Post by CoachSP on Aug 23, 2018 9:04:24 GMT -6
I've coached for a guy who wanted to go fast. It worked because part of his philosophy was to get a lot of reps then correct on film. We'd film drill work. I work for a guy now who gives us 30 min of Indy. The emphasis is getting it right and teaching fundamentals. Like a previous poster said, if we messed up a certain skill in team, then I will drill that technique the next day to make sure it is understood. I don't want to take stabs at your methods. To each his own, but maybe the drill work is over-scripted? Just a thought. We do go over things slowly and walk them and explain them....we just do that in Spring and early Summer. We have been going at it for months now, the time for installing and walking through (in regards to EDDs) has long since passed. This doesn't mean that there still won't be errors (there always will be), but when minor errors come up they shouldn't require speeches and stopping everything for one small mistake. Fix it quickly and move on is my thought I get that. Shouldn't have to go over day one stuff at this point. Sounds like he is "speech guy" and doesn't get to the point. Maybe it's less about his coaching/teaching ability and more about being long winded with speeches. Maybe that's the next conversation you should have with him. I hate speech guy lol
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Post by gators41 on Aug 23, 2018 9:11:29 GMT -6
So as a relatively new HC I am still working on this 'coaching the coaches' aspect. This is my second year as the HC, and from day 1 I have given every assistant a complete drill manual that outlines exactly how each drill is to be taught (if they want to discus making any changes that happens from December-March). In addition I have exactly when to teach each drill and for how long spelled out on the practice plan (ex- Getoffs (2Min), double team (4Min). Last year it all worked out fine but this year I have a new AC who is struggling to keep the pace. He is a good guy, but tends to pause every mistake for a minute long explanation which really slows his position group down. One thing I pride myself on is efficiency and limiting the amount of time players are just standing around in line taking 'mental reps' (we are what we repeatedly do); but I give 27 minutes for Indy time and at the end he usually only gets half way done. I've met with him and talked to him about 'coaching on the fly', about having two+ kids go at once and being rapid fire, and about trusting the drill. In addition I have starter making announcements mid indy time about how much time is left and where to be. Does anyone else have any other ideas or strategies to help me help him pick up the pace? When I became a first time HC, this is one of my biggest problems. You will deal with coaches not having the talent to do things you think they should do. Sounds like you have done everything you can. Maybe go over there and show him one day if you dont coach a position yourself. Problems with your AC's will be the hardest things to deal with until you get a good staff in place.
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Post by carookie on Aug 23, 2018 10:25:03 GMT -6
So as a relatively new HC I am still working on this 'coaching the coaches' aspect. This is my second year as the HC, and from day 1 I have given every assistant a complete drill manual that outlines exactly how each drill is to be taught (if they want to discus making any changes that happens from December-March). In addition I have exactly when to teach each drill and for how long spelled out on the practice plan (ex- Getoffs (2Min), double team (4Min). Last year it all worked out fine but this year I have a new AC who is struggling to keep the pace. He is a good guy, but tends to pause every mistake for a minute long explanation which really slows his position group down. One thing I pride myself on is efficiency and limiting the amount of time players are just standing around in line taking 'mental reps' (we are what we repeatedly do); but I give 27 minutes for Indy time and at the end he usually only gets half way done. I've met with him and talked to him about 'coaching on the fly', about having two+ kids go at once and being rapid fire, and about trusting the drill. In addition I have starter making announcements mid indy time about how much time is left and where to be. Does anyone else have any other ideas or strategies to help me help him pick up the pace? When I became a first time HC, this is one of my biggest problems. You will deal with coaches not having the talent to do things you think they should do. Sounds like you have done everything you can. Maybe go over there and show him one day if you dont coach a position yourself. Problems with your AC's will be the hardest things to deal with until you get a good staff in place. On the plus side he is VERY good at a lot of the other small things (weight room, equipment, setup, etc.) We are a very small team and small school so I have to make him wear hats that may not fit...such is the fun
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Post by gators41 on Aug 23, 2018 11:13:42 GMT -6
Been there as well.
As the HC, I structured it so I could get some time with all of them.
Best advice I can give.
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