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Post by wiscoach on Aug 9, 2018 18:15:39 GMT -6
Just Texted our QB saying he wants to come out for football. Our Scrimmage is Tomorrow. The kid quit after his freshman year. Multiple D1 offers in other sports. 6'4", 210lb, 4.6, 30+ vertical.
He would like to only play Wide Receiver.
We're 12/21 personnel and the other Wide-out is a 6'5 4.9 guy. At a school of 195.
I went in to this season thinking we would get to level 3 in the playoffs. This addition could be the difference in getting to level 4 or state.
Anybody handled a situation like this before? We're going to have a discussion about expectations and playing time. This would cut into a lot of guys time that worked hard all off season and have stuck with our program.
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Post by larrymoe on Aug 9, 2018 18:22:22 GMT -6
Just Texted our QB saying he wants to come out for football. Our Scrimmage is Tomorrow. The kid quit after his freshman year. Multiple D1 offers in other sports. 6'4", 210lb, 4.6, 30+ vertical. He would like to only play Wide Receiver. We're 12/21 personnel and the other Wide-out is a 6'5 4.9 guy. At a school of 195. I went in to this season thinking we would get to level 3 in the playoffs. This addition could be the difference in getting to level 4 or state. Anybody handled a situation like this before? We're going to have a discussion about expectations and playing time. This would cut into a lot of guys time that worked hard all off season and have stuck with our program. We always told a kid that if they made up all the conditioning that the rest of the team did in the practices they missed, on top of whatever the captains came up with for summer make up they were free to play. The kids were usually good with it because it was usually a lot of running and if they got through it, the kids knew they were all in. If they didn't want to do it, oh well.
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Post by joelee on Aug 9, 2018 18:28:12 GMT -6
In our state practice started something like 27 days ago. That's a lot of running to make up.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 9, 2018 18:43:15 GMT -6
Why should a kid have to make up all the weights and conditioning if he is already the best player at the position, assuming that he is?
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Post by dubber on Aug 9, 2018 18:57:05 GMT -6
yeah, let him play X....give him whatever number he wants
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Post by silkyice on Aug 9, 2018 19:09:52 GMT -6
Suspend him the first game.
He has to do a 100 bear crawl everyday after practice for the number of days missed. He missed 10 days, he owes 10 beat crawls. Or whatever, just saying have some make up.
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Post by silkyice on Aug 9, 2018 19:19:35 GMT -6
Why should a kid have to make up all the weights and conditioning if he is already the best player at the position, assuming that he is? So your starting 11 shouldn’t work out or condition? Isnt the point for each player to be their best? You aren’t just trying to start or be the best at your school, you are trying to beat other schools, and, if you want to play college, you are in competition with every player in the country.
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Post by wiscoach on Aug 9, 2018 19:23:30 GMT -6
Just Texted our QB saying he wants to come out for football. Our Scrimmage is Tomorrow. The kid quit after his freshman year. Multiple D1 offers in other sports. 6'4", 210lb, 4.6, 30+ vertical. We always told a kid that if they made up all the conditioning that the rest of the team did in the practices they missed, on top of whatever the captains came up with for summer make up they were free to play. The kids were usually good with it because it was usually a lot of running and if they got through it, the kids knew they were all in. If they didn't want to do it, oh well. I like that a lot, and it's something meaningful. Would you stick to that if you believed you would lose the kid if you made that mandatory, and he made you a legitimate championship contender? In our state practice started something like 27 days ago. That's a lot of running to make up. We just finished up Practice number 7 Why should a kid have to make up all the weights and conditioning if he is already the best player at the position, assuming that he is? He definitely would be. I am pretty comfortable in saying we would have the best skill group of any small school in the state with this possible addition. yeah, let him play X....give him whatever number he wants Ha, I hate that we would be taking time away from "program" guys. But I think the feeling of losing in the playoffs and knowing what the potential was would be worse
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Post by wiscoach on Aug 9, 2018 19:24:04 GMT -6
Suspend him the first game. He has to do a 100 bear crawl everyday after practice for the number of days missed. He missed 10 days, he owes 10 beat crawls. Or whatever, just saying have some make up. Definitely wouldn't play the first game.
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 9, 2018 19:46:41 GMT -6
Why should a kid have to make up all the weights and conditioning if he is already the best player at the position, assuming that he is? It is definitely a slippery slope, because as silkyice mentions, there is a real danger to the program when the measuring stick is being the best player at your position. It can quickly bring down a program. Sure, professional coaches can see a difference in these situations, but not all 14/15 year olds can. I have to tell you wiscoach while obviously it is tantalizing, I think some serious downsides to having him join exist.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 9, 2018 19:55:04 GMT -6
Why should a kid have to make up all the weights and conditioning if he is already the best player at the position, assuming that he is? So your starting 11 shouldn’t work out or condition? Isnt the point for each player to be their best? You aren’t just trying to start or be the best at your school, you are trying to beat other schools, and, if you want to play college, you are in competition with every player in the country. How is making the kid do bear crawls after practice or whatever going to make him a better athlete? That ship has sailed. He missed the summer. There is no "make up" for that. That's two months of work. When's the first game? A week or two? if this kid is as good as wiscoach says he is, then the coaching staff and the players should get down on their knees, shout a collective "Hallelujah" and give thanks to the football gods for such a generous gift.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 9, 2018 20:01:27 GMT -6
Why should a kid have to make up all the weights and conditioning if he is already the best player at the position, assuming that he is? It is definitely a slippery slope, because as silkyice mentions, there is a real danger to the program when the measuring stick is being the best player at your position. It can quickly bring down a program. Sure, professional coaches can see a difference in these situations, but not all 14/15 year olds can. I have to tell you wiscoach while obviously it is tantalizing, I think some serious downsides to having him join exist. What other measuring stick is there other than being the best player at each position?
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Post by silkyice on Aug 9, 2018 20:04:44 GMT -6
It is definitely a slippery slope, because as silkyice mentions, there is a real danger to the program when the measuring stick is being the best player at your position. It can quickly bring down a program. Sure, professional coaches can see a difference in these situations, but not all 14/15 year olds can. I have to tell you wiscoach while obviously it is tantalizing, I think some serious downsides to having him join exist. What other measuring stick is there other than being the best player at each position? If that is the case, then every team in America has 22 or at least 11 players on their team that are at the top of the measuring stick.
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Post by silkyice on Aug 9, 2018 20:07:11 GMT -6
So your starting 11 shouldn’t work out or condition? Isnt the point for each player to be their best? You aren’t just trying to start or be the best at your school, you are trying to beat other schools, and, if you want to play college, you are in competition with every player in the country. How is making the kid do bear crawls after practice or whatever going to make him a better athlete? That ship has sailed. He missed the summer. There is no "make up" for that. That's two months of work. When's the first game? A week or two? if this kid is as good as wiscoach says he is, then the coaching staff and the players should get down on their knees, shout a collective "Hallelujah" and give thanks to the football gods for such a generous gift. All your points here are correct. Every one of them. But, I am coaching for the next year also. If a player knows he can miss everything and just show up with no penalty, you will doom your program. Make decisions based on the program, the current season, the upcoming game. In that order. And I am not saying the kid shouldn't be on the team. There is a way to get all of it.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 9, 2018 20:17:34 GMT -6
What other measuring stick is there other than being the best player at each position? If that is the case, then every team in America has 22 or at least 11 players on their team that are at the top of the measuring stick. So, then what is the measuring stick? If you don't start the best 11 players, whom do you start instead? Look...the purpose of the summer is to get kids bigger, faster, and stronger. More times than not, the kids who put the work in during the summer are going to end up being the best players. But, on occasion, some of us have the great fortune to see a real, live unicorn. And when we have that opportunity, we need to recognize how special it is. I saw a unicorn once. This particular specimen was 6'1" and 210lbs. Didn't lift a weight all summer and came into two-a-days with a 33" VJ and a 4.6 40. He rushed for over 2,500 yards his junior and senior year and that was with missing the final 5 games of his junior year with a broken leg. Ended up being a PWO at Illinois and would have got a scholarship if Ron Turner hadn't been fired.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 9, 2018 20:22:06 GMT -6
How is making the kid do bear crawls after practice or whatever going to make him a better athlete? That ship has sailed. He missed the summer. There is no "make up" for that. That's two months of work. When's the first game? A week or two? if this kid is as good as wiscoach says he is, then the coaching staff and the players should get down on their knees, shout a collective "Hallelujah" and give thanks to the football gods for such a generous gift. All your points here are correct. Every one of them. But, I am coaching for the next year also. If a player knows he can miss everything and just show up with no penalty, you will doom your program.Make decisions based on the program, the current season, the upcoming game. In that order. And I am not saying the kid shouldn't be on the team. There is a way to get all of it. If that player is just a guy, he's not going to play if he doesn't do anything in the summer. He most likely won't be one of the best 11 players.
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Post by macdiiddy on Aug 9, 2018 20:36:07 GMT -6
I see it as equally teaching this kid a life lesson. Not, we are going to make you pay, but you have to put in the time to get something you want. It doesn't have to be over the top but he should have to do something to enter the team so late.
Talk with him, say we would love to have you, but these other guys have been busting their butts all summer. Be honest and real with him. Tell him he is a great athlete, you have high expectations, but nothing will be given to him. He will have to pay his dues, and earn a spot.
You are cheating the kid and the team if you just make him an automatic starter.
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Post by freezeoption on Aug 9, 2018 20:36:28 GMT -6
You still don't get it. The group he has is pretty good already. They have worked hard, now a slapick comes in and knows he is the best player but doesn't do feces going to come in. You may gain one but you may lose a lot. Yes, he may make a difference in many ways and they may not be good. I always left it up to the kids, I let them talk it over and vote. Then of course there is make up conditioning and I always may that tough, hills, tire flips and pushes plus whatever else. If the kid complains they there is the door. You dance with the one you brought.
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Post by 44dlcoach on Aug 9, 2018 20:47:25 GMT -6
I've gotten a lot of blowback on this site when I mentioned that our program had minimum weight room standards that kids had to hit to be eligible to start. For example, if you're a junior that plays position x you must squat y amount to be eligible to start the game.
It makes things like this manageable if this kid hasn't been around and can't hit the standards then he cant be a starter. It doesn't mean he can't play but he can't start the game. For us that meant sit out two series then you are good to go. Lets your program type guy get into the game for a couple series of meaningful snaps and still lets your better player get the majority of the snaps.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 9, 2018 21:00:16 GMT -6
You still don't get it. The group he has is pretty good already. They have worked hard, now a slapick comes in and knows he is the best player but doesn't do feces going to come in. You may gain one but you may lose a lot. Yes, he may make a difference in many ways and they may not be good. I always left it up to the kids, I let them talk it over and vote. Then of course there is make up conditioning and I always may that tough, hills, tire flips and pushes plus whatever else. If the kid complains they there is the door. You dance with the one you brought. Slapdick? According to wiscoach, this kid is one of the best high school athletes in the state and has D1 offers in other sports. And he hasn't said anything about the kid being a cancer. That doesn't sound like slapdick to me. Letting the kids decide is a cop-out. You are the coach. The coach gets paid to make the tough decisions. Although, in this case, it should not be a tough decision at all. And, I don't know what the Wisconsin rules are, but, in Illinois, a player has to have 14 practices (I think?) before he can play in the game. Assuming there is a similar rule in Wisconsin, this kid isn't going to play right away anyway.
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Post by natenator on Aug 9, 2018 21:05:50 GMT -6
So your starting 11 shouldn’t work out or condition? Isnt the point for each player to be their best? You aren’t just trying to start or be the best at your school, you are trying to beat other schools, and, if you want to play college, you are in competition with every player in the country. How is making the kid do bear crawls after practice or whatever going to make him a better athlete? That ship has sailed. He missed the summer. There is no "make up" for that. That's two months of work. When's the first game? A week or two? if this kid is as good as wiscoach says he is, then the coaching staff and the players should get down on their knees, shout a collective "Hallelujah" and give thanks to the football gods for such a generous gift. Pretty sure that's how TO (and countless others) became what he is.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 9, 2018 21:36:43 GMT -6
How is making the kid do bear crawls after practice or whatever going to make him a better athlete? That ship has sailed. He missed the summer. There is no "make up" for that. That's two months of work. When's the first game? A week or two? if this kid is as good as wiscoach says he is, then the coaching staff and the players should get down on their knees, shout a collective "Hallelujah" and give thanks to the football gods for such a generous gift. Pretty sure that's how TO (and countless others) became what he is. What TO became was a HOFer.
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Post by s73 on Aug 9, 2018 22:52:05 GMT -6
Take this for what it's worth. I always tell our kids that if they want to be their absolute best they should and are expected to work in the off season. With that said, off season by state rule cannot be mandatory.
So....I tell them, if you're lazy & skip stuff you better be one he!! of a natural athlete. Otherwise you won't play.
In 10 years I've had 1 kid good enough to get away with it. Very few have that ability. I personally feel that if he's good enough to pull it off, he plays.
Fair to other kids? Not sure. What I do know is the best kids play & 99% of the time it's kids who put in the work. I personally don't believe that very rare anomaly will effect your program much if any if the kid earns a starting spot b/c of his ability level.
I did say EARN b/c if he can perform better than others, well, in my book he earns a spot.
Again, I think these moments are so few and far between it won't have any real lasting effect on your program.
JMO
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Post by coachscdub on Aug 10, 2018 1:25:45 GMT -6
We kind of have a similar issue. Our approach (discussed approach) is if the kid can come in and play right away and is clearly better than the kid(s) who have been there all summer than the better athlete will play because theoretically if you have been there all summer you should be the better athlete.
**Before anybody says anything, i know it's not that simple, and kids should be rewarded for putting in the time over the summer, but this idea is something that our HC came up with and i can follow the logic behind it. The only hard part might be if one of those kids who was there all summer asks you why he is not starting and the new kid is, but when it comes to that we would just try and explain that the new kid is able to execute everything physically that we require at this time, and if you (the kid) keep working hard and can overtake the position than you will be the starter.
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Post by CS on Aug 10, 2018 3:38:26 GMT -6
My 2 cents is that the kids talked him into coming out because they think with him they will win state.
You said you would make a deep run already. Kids aren’t stupid and they want to win. Think how good a state title would be for the program
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Post by utchuckd on Aug 10, 2018 5:08:00 GMT -6
Did he truly just decide to come out for football? Or was his plan all along to come out late to skip all the off season stuff? Or did the other football players recruit him and finally get him to come out?
I can see making up a certain amount of practices, or doing some kind of extra work to be eligible, but it would be reasonable. If he's got multiple D1 offers in other sports it's not like he's been sitting on the couch playing Fortnite all summer. Personally I'd hate watching him ball out all basketball season after a round 2 playoff loss because he didn't want to do a couple weeks of 100 yard bear crawls.
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Post by fantom on Aug 10, 2018 7:15:34 GMT -6
How is making the kid do bear crawls after practice or whatever going to make him a better athlete? That ship has sailed. He missed the summer. There is no "make up" for that. That's two months of work. When's the first game? A week or two? if this kid is as good as wiscoach says he is, then the coaching staff and the players should get down on their knees, shout a collective "Hallelujah" and give thanks to the football gods for such a generous gift. Pretty sure that's how TO (and countless others) became what he is. A Hall of Famer?
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Post by fantom on Aug 10, 2018 7:40:58 GMT -6
Why should a kid have to make up all the weights and conditioning if he is already the best player at the position, assuming that he is? It is definitely a slippery slope, because as silkyice mentions, there is a real danger to the program when the measuring stick is being the best player at your position. It can quickly bring down a program. Sure, professional coaches can see a difference in these situations, but not all 14/15 year olds can. I have to tell you wiscoach while obviously it is tantalizing, I think some serious downsides to having him join exist. And there's a down side to not letting him come out. If he's as good as advertised every kid in the school knows it. As others have said, they may have been trying to talk him into coming out. If he finally asks to come out and you don't take him they may wonder how serious you are about winning.
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Post by Defcord on Aug 10, 2018 8:46:45 GMT -6
If the kid is a basketball kid, is he going to stay motivated as a team member late in a playoff run when it’s cold out side, practice is hard, and their is a nice warm gym within walking distance?
I think it’s worth giving him a shot. But I think it’s worth giving all kids a shot. There are some potential negative outcomes to allowing him to come out but it’s probably not the end of the world if they surface. Just something you would have to deal with and refocus your group afterward.
These situations are always interesting. One school I was at our head coach had kicked a pretty popular kid off for missing three practices in camp but then allowed a couple kids to come out after the school year started. It never sat right with the kids because in their mind they late kids had missed more practices than the one who missed the three. The head coach said it was different because the late comers hadn’t made a commitment yet. I see both perspectives.
The best thing you can do is make the decision you think helps the team fulfill your goals. There’s no right answer here and that’s what makes coaching so interesting.
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SconnieOC
Junior Member
Just here to learn the facemelter
Posts: 408
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Post by SconnieOC on Aug 10, 2018 8:59:02 GMT -6
Here's the question no one is asking... is he a hard worker in other sports? Do the guys respect him? Is he a great kid, who just decided he wanted to try football, even though he has been working extremely hard at other things? If it's a yes to those things, kids will get it. Sure, little 5'9, 165 Johnny might be upset because he'll miss snaps, but the players who care about the team, and lifting the trophy in the last game, will get over it real quick when this kid is Mossin dudes for 6.
The other thing, everyone wants to mention life lessons for the late comer.. what about life lessons for the other kids? How many coaches on here can say they have been passed over by guys who didn't work as hard, who were more naturally talented, whatever it might be, and they were pissed about it. I don't care what your job is, at some point, no matter how hard you work, something probably isn't going to work out in your favor. And to me, that's the best life lesson you can teach some of these kids. Everyone always says how important it is to teach hard work, and work ethic always pays off.. well bull$hit.. it absolutely does not. And the sooner they learn life isn't fair, the better off they will be.
**Edit** Sorry for the cynicism.. it's been a rough start to the season and I'm struggling already.
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