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Post by Defcord on Jul 26, 2018 19:02:08 GMT -6
That’s not the point. The point is perspective. The 12 people that tell you to jump of a bridge could be jumping of because they want to end it all. Or, they could be jumping off cause they are thrill seekers and know that there is safe landing in the calm and deep waters below them. I am not sure how many people have told me that broccoli tastes bad. But I have heard many people tell me that they think ghosts are real or that they have seen ghosts. Does that make it true? Or I have heard dozens of people tell me that George Jones’s music isn’t any good and I know that’s not true from my perspective. Who were these people who told you George Jones’ music isn’t any good? Music critics? Musicians? People in the music industry? You have an entire thread (in fact numerous threads about these shows), made up of football coaches, who have virtually nothing positive to say about how these shows depict football players and coaches. That is called an informed opinion and carries far more weight than these legions of anti-George Jones zealots who are besieging you. I get your point about taking the opinion of this board as an informed opinion. I just think it’s a slippery slope to rally against information that one had not experienced. Like I said as a matter of taste it’s really not a big deal, but as a matter of policy it’s a little more serious in my opinion.
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Post by 19delta on Jul 26, 2018 19:09:58 GMT -6
Who were these people who told you George Jones’ music isn’t any good? Music critics? Musicians? People in the music industry? You have an entire thread (in fact numerous threads about these shows), made up of football coaches, who have virtually nothing positive to say about how these shows depict football players and coaches. That is called an informed opinion and carries far more weight than these legions of anti-George Jones zealots who are besieging you. I get your point about taking the opinion of this board as an informed opinion. I just think it’s a slippery slope to rally against information that one had not experienced. Like I said as a matter of taste it’s really not a big deal, but as a matter of policy it’s a little more serious in my opinion. Which is, as I think coachd5085 is saying, all the more reason for an organization like the AFCA (American Football COACHES Association) to vehemently condemn the way that these shows depict the game.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 26, 2018 19:11:24 GMT -6
Who were these people who told you George Jones’ music isn’t any good? Music critics? Musicians? People in the music industry? You have an entire thread (in fact numerous threads about these shows), made up of football coaches, who have virtually nothing positive to say about how these shows depict football players and coaches. That is called an informed opinion and carries far more weight than these legions of anti-George Jones zealots who are besieging you. I get your point about taking the opinion of this board as an informed opinion. I just think it’s a slippery slope to rally against information that one had not experienced. Like I said as a matter of taste it’s really not a big deal, but as a matter of policy it’s a little more serious in my opinion. I would agree with you had I been actually contacting the AFCA. But saying that I think they should based on what I have read is a few degrees different. I do understand your position, but not sure how you in anyway connected that to the Fedora thread.
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Post by Defcord on Jul 26, 2018 19:19:59 GMT -6
But how do you know those shows contain anything to ask that the AFCA makes statements in regards to those shows? I just stated the comments I have read describing such actions. Now, if your argument is that "No, you have to actually watch the program and see a coach instruct a player to aim at another kids helmet to knock him out, or you have to watch the program to see a coach ban his athletes from getting water etc" as opposed to read about them on a comment board in order to feel that the AFCA should make a statement condemning those actions as not representative of quality coaching, we will have to disagree. The second point is the issue that I wonder about. When I first responded, I tried to be deliberate in how I worded my post. I wondered how not watching the shows and trying to influence a powerful organization to rally against them was different than making claims against CTE without presenting evidence to support those claims. My initial thoughts were that both are similar. For CTE the science shows risk and we as coaches need to understand the science to protect our profession and more importantly our children. As far as the shows I worry that when a person condemns something based on information they have only heard about then I think there is the possibility to lose context and perspective and the more channels the information is shifted through the more the opportunity for it to be inaccurately applied. I agree with you fully that there are inappropriate behaviors by coaches in shows and in our communities that needs to be addressed and improved. I guess for me I would address those issues with information I had processed in a more direct manner. I think we differ in that if I wanted to address coaching behavior with the AFCA and I hadn’t seen these shows I just wouldn’t bring them up at all. I would support my opposition the inappropriate behaviors with personal anecdotes and the science.
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Post by Defcord on Jul 26, 2018 19:22:09 GMT -6
I get your point about taking the opinion of this board as an informed opinion. I just think it’s a slippery slope to rally against information that one had not experienced. Like I said as a matter of taste it’s really not a big deal, but as a matter of policy it’s a little more serious in my opinion. I would agree with you had I been actually contacting the AFCA. But saying that I think they should based on what I have read is a few degrees different. I do understand your position, but not sure how you in anyway connected that to the Fedora thread. I didn’t see this before I just posted. You are right that the mention of the AFCA and actually contacting them are different degrees. I did not even think of that.
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Post by Defcord on Jul 26, 2018 19:31:43 GMT -6
I get your point about taking the opinion of this board as an informed opinion. I just think it’s a slippery slope to rally against information that one had not experienced. Like I said as a matter of taste it’s really not a big deal, but as a matter of policy it’s a little more serious in my opinion. I would agree with you had I been actually contacting the AFCA. But saying that I think they should based on what I have read is a few degrees different. I do understand your position, but not sure how you in anyway connected that to the Fedora thread. There really probably was no link to Fedora. I just wondered if making strong claims about the show without seeing it was different than making strong claims about concussions without supporting the claims. I respect your voice on the board and when I first asked I really was curious to know how you felt those two things differed. I did have an uneasiness with the idea of having the AFCA act based on something you hadn’t seen, but the fact you pointed out that you hadn’t seen it gave credence to your and opinion in general.
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Post by coachchambers on Jul 27, 2018 8:24:44 GMT -6
Just finished. 1. The more I watch this the more I dislike the QB coach... he just comes across so fake and whiny 2. The QB can’t control himself at moments but I actually feel bad for him... when you see how his dad talks and has taken control of him you actually start to feel bad for him. He has so much pressure on him and doesn’t seem like he ever got to be a kid 3. I don’t know how you can watch this and not like the head coach... yes he’s off the hook. Yes he’s arrogant. Yes he appears underprepared each game... but he’s always been successful and most of what he’s saying is actually right... he doesn’t always express it in the most eloquent way... but for the most part he’s right He's successful because he has 31 bounceback D1 players on his roster. He barely knows his offense, treats his assistants and team like garbage, takes all the glory when things are good and gives all the blame when things are bad. He's successful because it was announced that LCU would be coming to ICC and he gained all 31 of those guys. He says I and Me more than anyone I know, and that is an unbelievable amount. I don't know how you can watch this and like the headcoach. I respect your opinion in that you like him and he comes off as correct, but dang I can't support that dude.
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Post by 3rdandlong on Jul 27, 2018 8:49:25 GMT -6
What I enjoy about Last Chance U seasons is how it provides a mirror to what (I assume most of us) deal with for our players. Dealing with the player immaturity / drama / childishness on a daily basis I would routinely ignore or make excuses for. Seeing that very thing played back to me as a detached audience viewer, it becomes hard to ignore. The QB coach and English teacher seemingly keep enabling the poor decisions/behavior that got the kids in the mess they currently in by delaying the inevitable. Hounding the kids to do their work/assignment isn't bad, but their projection of desperate neediness to the kids by constantly moving their boundaries and expectations thinking they will "save" them is where I believe we could learn a lesson. We were all young and needed experience to see this doesn't help and leads you down a path of undermining your authority and that of the program. I'm sure the producers are pros at this and are on auto-pilot, but each season is exactly the same as the last when it comes to the "plot". Amazing you can create an 8-9 hour series about a dozen kids struggling to earn 12 credits in 12 weeks. I have to think the English teacher believed this would be her 'big break' once Netflix signed the deal to become the new Britney Whatshername. A lot of her appearances came off as try-hard, over-the-top scenes replete with costume changes. I think the movie Undefeated does a better job of showing what coaches have to deal with without all the foolishness
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Post by coachks on Jul 27, 2018 9:33:38 GMT -6
I really can't believe that anybody has a positive thing to say about Brown.
I don't care about the language. I don't care that he delivers ass chewing to assistants. That happens in every profession and every level of football.
What bothers me about how he does it is that the majority of the ass-chewings are a result of HIM being unorganized.You want to hold people to a standard and be a yeller / cusser / ass hat....you damn well better have your ducks in row. Thats the difference between a Saban or Meyer doing it and this yahoo. You think Saban is going over how he is going to signal plays to the WR during pregame (for the first time)? Do you think he is trying to call plays not on the wrist-band?
Even beyond that, his goal is to get those guys scholarships - and then brag about how he never learned a single thing in college. Then why get a scholarship? He talks about, literally acknowledges, most NFL dudes go broke in 3 years - but then talks about how college is just a game and you have to learn to work the system. For what purpose? Is going to college for 4 years going to "get them out of the hood" if they don't actually learn anything. Like a college degree is some magic "get a job" piece of paper that you just get because you learn to "play school."
Teaching a kid to scam a "C" at a community college is not helping him. Getting a kid a scholarship is not helping him. That's just putting a year or two delay until they fail so you can feel good about yourself for helping the kids.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 27, 2018 9:36:53 GMT -6
I blame "The Real World" circa 1992
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klaby
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Post by klaby on Jul 27, 2018 9:41:52 GMT -6
I really can't believe that anybody has a positive thing to say about Brown. I don't care about the language. I don't care that he delivers ass chewing to assistants. That happens in every profession and every level of football. What bothers me about how he does it is that the majority of the ass-chewings are a result of HIM being unorganized.You want to hold people to a standard and be a yeller / cusser / ass hat....you damn well better have your ducks in row. Thats the difference between a Saban or Meyer doing it and this yahoo. You think Saban is going over how he is going to signal plays to the WR during pregame (for the first time)? Do you think he is trying to call plays not on the wrist-band? Even beyond that, his goal is to get those guys scholarships - and then brag about how he never learned a single thing in college. Then why get a scholarship? He talks about, literally acknowledges, most NFL dudes go broke in 3 years - but then talks about how college is just a game and you have to learn to work the system. For what purpose? Is going to college for 4 years going to "get them out of the hood" if they don't actually learn anything. Like a college degree is some magic "get a job" piece of paper that you just get because you learn to "play school." Teaching a kid to scam a "C" at a community college is not helping him. Getting a kid a scholarship is not helping him. That's just putting a year or two delay until they fail so you can feel good about yourself for helping the kids. Well said coach!
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Post by brophy on Jul 27, 2018 10:21:05 GMT -6
I really can't believe that anybody has a positive thing to say about Brown. I dunno. I come away from watching 3 seasons appreciating/commiserating/understanding Stephens and Brown more. They do make convenient self-righteous scapegoats that we can jeer to our own personal satisfaction. They don't do the profession any favors. JUCO is an entirely different animal to coach compared to any high school or college [program]. You're not going to find many virtuous, trust-worthy used car salesmen, either. These coaches earn a living WINNING games for 4 months out of the year. If they retain more than 20% of their roster from year-to-year, they probably aren't doing so hot. Their entire objective is to get the best players and churn out 10 wins in 4 months. If they did their job correctly, 30% of their roster will be out of the program before January hits (with new scholly offers). The other half of the roster would be gone when summer hits (or graduates with an AA). Being an assistant coach (much worse, be the QB intern) is a dead end, so what kind of coaching talent do you think you'd be attracting? If you only have players for 18 months TOTAL, what point is there to make a huge investment in character building, leadership training, academic mentoring? To keep your job, you just need to keep your knuckleheads to attend 4 classes for 4 months. We may not like, but that turn-and-burn mindset is what is incentivized here / at that level. The bigger question it begs is who are we fooling by forcing these 80 IQ-level kids into college-level classrooms just to keep the illusion of "student-athlete"?
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 27, 2018 10:24:15 GMT -6
We may not like, but that turn-and-burn mindset is what is incentivized here / at that level. The bigger question it begs is who are we fooling by forcing these 80 IQ-level kids into college-level classrooms just to keep the illusion of "student-athlete"? That right there, is the "third rail" of college football and basketball. Not many want to go down the path to discuss and explore that, because it will rumble and shake the foundations of college football/basketball.
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Post by KYCoach2331 on Jul 27, 2018 10:38:33 GMT -6
I haven't made it through the entire season but the one constant I see is a lack of organization.
I defend the QB a little bit because most of his outbursts are due to the lack of organization, still a bad look for him recruiting wise as he's obviously talented.
That and the use of the word I. "I'm a master motivator" "I'm the most intense". I'm sure they could be cutting out a lot of normal, good coaching but this dude is a next level Dbag.
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Post by coachks on Jul 27, 2018 11:30:15 GMT -6
I really can't believe that anybody has a positive thing to say about Brown. I dunno. I come away from watching 3 seasons appreciating/commiserating/understanding Stephens and Brown more. They do make convenient self-righteous scapegoats that we can jeer to our own personal satisfaction. They don't do the profession any favors. JUCO is an entirely different animal to coach compared to any high school or college [program]. You're not going to find many virtuous, trust-worthy used car salesmen, either. These coaches earn a living WINNING games for 4 months out of the year. If they retain more than 20% of their roster from year-to-year, they probably aren't doing so hot. Their entire objective is to get the best players and churn out 10 wins in 4 months. If they did their job correctly, 30% of their roster will be out of the program before January hits (with new scholly offers). The other half of the roster would be gone when summer hits (or graduates with an AA). Being an assistant coach (much worse, be the QB intern) is a dead end, so what kind of coaching talent do you think you'd be attracting? If you only have players for 18 months TOTAL, what point is there to make a huge investment in character building, leadership training, academic mentoring? To keep your job, you just need to keep your knuckleheads to attend 4 classes for 4 months. We may not like, but that turn-and-burn mindset is what is incentivized here / at that level. The bigger question it begs is who are we fooling by forcing these 80 IQ-level kids into college-level classrooms just to keep the illusion of "student-athlete"? I think there is a big difference from Stephens to Brown, that was my point. Buddy was an {censored}, but he was organized and knew the game. You could watch EMCC practice during the show and it was quality football. ICC is a joke. Their practices are on par with a weak HS program. Theres a noticeable and obvious difference in the quality of coaching. Buddy is a hypocrit and a jackass, but knows his job. Brown is a hypocrit and a jackass, but cant even coach.
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Post by brophy on Jul 27, 2018 11:58:34 GMT -6
I dunno. I come away from watching 3 seasons appreciating/commiserating/understanding Stephens and Brown more. They do make convenient self-righteous scapegoats that we can jeer to our own personal satisfaction. They don't do the profession any favors. but cant even coach. show of hands.....how much Indy and Group time did anyone see in this series? I don't do much coaching, myself, on game night.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2018 14:48:37 GMT -6
Watched Tykes once.. and I was mad at myself for like 3 hours after I watched it.
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Post by coachks on Jul 27, 2018 17:05:05 GMT -6
show of hands.....how much Indy and Group time did anyone see in this series? I don't do much coaching, myself, on game night. Are you kidding? Half the show is them at practice. The very first episode shows a QB/WR period where neither coach is on the same page about how they are supposed to be running the routes and openly arguing during practice about it. They've shown OL indy periods. They show DL drills. They show bag drills. They show them going on air. They show them going against the scout team. Let alone they are 4-5 games into the year (where I am) and are struggling to snap, the backup QB doesn't know the plays and they fumble like it's going out of style. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck... it's a duck.
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Post by spreadattack on Jul 27, 2018 19:27:59 GMT -6
My only comment on this is I think most folks watch a show like Last Chance U and get what it is; I mean, it's right there in the title -- "last chance," for players, coaches, etc. If you want to reflect well on the sport and profession the All or Nothing Series is tremendous. This... is something else. And above all it's entertainment.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 27, 2018 19:54:33 GMT -6
My only comment on this is I think most folks watch a show like Last Chance U and get what it is; I mean, it's right there in the title -- "last chance," for players, coaches, etc. If you want to reflect well on the sport and profession the All or Nothing Series is tremendous. This... is something else. And above all it's entertainment. I have to disagree with your "most folks". Maybe "most coaches who are educated and professional enough to continually develop", but not most folks.
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Post by flacoach10 on Jul 29, 2018 20:04:39 GMT -6
AFCA actually just released a podcast with him which is kind of interesting considering that you would imagine they would at least frown upon his antics if not condemn them.
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Post by pvogel on Jul 30, 2018 7:50:48 GMT -6
Several thoughts. And a lot of them are really just arguing some other points to be a devil's advocate. I don't know if its the Californian in me, but I tend not to weigh to heavily on either side of the fence in a lot of things and tend to just want to pull people back to the middle. So here's my 2 cents. Hold on to yo butts:
On Coach Brown: - The I/Me focus is infuriating. It's the biggest complaint I have. Hate working with and for people like that. - The "send your ass back to Detroit" and whatever is bad too. Hate the constant firing of people. When you do it so much and its an empty threat, then why say it? You'll get kids like Bobby Bruce that are just listening to you and believe. And then you'll also get kids and coaches that respond with "whatever, he says that all the time and it doesn't mean anything" and you gain nothing. So whats the point? - It bothers me we never saw him watching film. At least I don't recall. I get that the games are won by Jimmy's and Joe's. But I also don't want to ever put my kids in a bad spot. I want to always put them in a position to succeed. Don't want to have to say "sorry that play call sucks. Shouldn't have called that play there." or any similar situation where the other team is clearly playing a much better chess game. If you expect the kids to put in 100% effort into preparing for the game then why aren't you? - I get that with a camera on you, all the moments of indecision and organizational mistakes will get magnified but I've never been on a staff where there was almost a fist fight amongst coaches during a game. And I wouldn't want to be. That's so embarrassing and uncomfortable. And how that assistant is there the next day... I don't know. - The worst exchange was after the Butler loss - "we lost that game because Emmit couldn't turn around and got that stupid penalty. Quit blaming each other!" I get that he might have just been talking big picture and that "We lost because of lack of discipline", but it came of sooooo bad. - All in all though I believe he does care about the kids at his core. But he does not show it in the way that most of us would show it or want it to be showed.
On the education: - I have no problem with the English teacher talking to kids and educating them on how the system is set against them. You're looking at kids that haven't been motivated to educate themselves for 18+ years. You have to find something that will inspire them. Perhaps the motivation to change course and to give their children and posterity a better opportunity is a motivator that they haven't considered before or it hasn't meant as much before. - There is most certainly a divide in education in the United States. I understand that it is different depending on where you're at. But if you don't think so then spend some time on either coast. LA and New York areas especially. Watch all the private planes fly over project housing to land in the executive airports. Watch all the nice cars stuck in summer traffic on the Garden State parkway as masses of people drive through broke neighborhoods as they make their way to their beach homes. The disparity is absolutely insane. And the kids of the parents with private planes and beach homes live in expensive neighborhoods. With high property taxes. That others can't afford. And those taxes go to their local schools. Which provide a much better learning opportunity than others get - better facilities, better teachers. All because their parents can pay more in taxes and live in more expensive neighborhoods. So yes, naturally there is a population that is "kept down" because they are not given the same opportunity that other kids are provided. - At high schools we get a bigger population and so sometimes it is harder to see the disparity in education opportunities. But look at your own kids and where the kids that struggle come from - it tends to be from a common area and neighborhood - the disparity in elementary schools is incredibly vast because their population is so small. Much more localized and usually more of an indicator of the neighborhood itself. - For telling kids to play the game: I am fine with it - as long as that's not the day 1 message. I think you should set an example of an educated, professional citizen for your kids. But sometimes they just need to be pushed to stay on track. I worked with a coach that returned to his neighborhood and once told a screw up kid "I tried coaching you like a good kid. Now I have to coach you like a bad kid" and basically told him to play the game like that so that he doesn't end up like the screw ups around their neighborhood. Kid has come a long way since- matured and is a D2 football player. Of course you want the kid to want a good education and of course a degree is no magic ticket to success. But if they've never been motivated before you have to meet them in the middle somewhere and get them to get over the first obstacle. Everyone grows up at a different time Maybe its when their 16. Maybe its 20, 22. But if you push him along and then he decides to get a degree to be a teacher or work in some kind of office somewhere then good. It was a success.
And yes, you can put all of yourself into this and do all that you can and still get disappointed. It will happen. You will fail and it will be frustrating. But it is about giving them a chance and providing them with the means necessary for those that do take advantage of it.
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Post by M4 on Jul 30, 2018 10:45:59 GMT -6
Netflix announced season 4 will be back at Indy
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Post by badtotheflexbone on Jul 30, 2018 13:42:17 GMT -6
Someone edumacate me on this, how does it work? How does one get a middle of nowhere town JC and get a whole bunch of D1 kids to transfer to play there? What's the recruiting pitch? Come play for me, you're going to get D1 Scholly again and I don't say this to everyone but you're NFL material and have a legitimate shot. Doesn't every coach/recruiter play this card?
Also, is the national title the same one that EMCC competes for?
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Post by fantom on Jul 30, 2018 13:46:03 GMT -6
Someone edumacate me on this, how does it work? How does one get a middle of nowhere town JC and get a whole bunch of D1 kids to transfer to play there? What's the recruiting pitch? Come play for me, you're going to get D1 Scholly again and I don't say this to everyone but you're NFL material and have a legitimate shot. Doesn't every coach/recruiter play this card? Also, is the national title the same one that EMCC competes for? From what I've seen, some of the best recruiters for JUCO's are D.1 coaches.
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Post by rudyrude9 on Jul 30, 2018 13:47:09 GMT -6
Netflix announced season 4 will be back at Indy Whine about all you want, ultimately and sadly people are watching. Sadly? I love this show. It would be sad if they didn't do another season in Indy.
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Post by 53 on Jul 30, 2018 17:52:13 GMT -6
If you will keep the kids staying committed to them, a lot of D1 schools funnel kids to a school with that reputation.
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Post by younggun10 on Jul 30, 2018 21:59:23 GMT -6
The recruiting pitch is: how many kids they put DI and/or who received scholarships. Also, they're selling exposure of being on Netflix, exposure of being a winning team in a very good conference and a team that finished very highly ranked. Lastly, they do offer scholarship money, dorms, and a meal plan...
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Post by badtotheflexbone on Jul 31, 2018 0:12:52 GMT -6
The recruiting pitch is: how many kids they put DI and/or who received scholarships. Also, they're selling exposure of being on Netflix, exposure of being a winning team in a very good conference and a team that finished very highly ranked. Lastly, they do offer scholarship money, dorms, and a meal plan... Questions Kids getting a lot of D1 offers: it said ICC has lost and lost badly for 3 decades, how did it switch so abruptly from that to this? I'm guessing $$$ is behind everything. Scholarship $, dorms, meal plan: Do other schools not offer the same? Does make sense that D1 schools funnel all the kids to one school. Just curious how they decide which school they're all sending them to. Maybe they have a D1 dropout forum somewhere and they communicate there.
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Post by 19delta on Jul 31, 2018 2:50:22 GMT -6
The recruiting pitch is: how many kids they put DI and/or who received scholarships. Also, they're selling exposure of being on Netflix, exposure of being a winning team in a very good conference and a team that finished very highly ranked. Lastly, they do offer scholarship money, dorms, and a meal plan... Questions Kids getting a lot of D1 offers: it said ICC has lost and lost badly for 3 decades, how did it switch so abruptly from that to this? I'm guessing $$$ is behind everything. Scholarship $, dorms, meal plan: Do other schools not offer the same? Does make sense that D1 schools funnel all the kids to one school. Just curious how they decide which school they're all sending them to. Maybe they have a D1 dropout forum somewhere and they communicate there. In the first or second episode of Season 3, there was a scene with the president of the school and he basically said that a decision was made by the leadership of ICC to do whatever was necessary to build a winning football program. That included lobbying to eliminate rules limiting the number of out-of-state players, bringing in a HFC who already had the reputation of being one of the best JUCO recruiters in the country, and investing heavily in improving the facilities. It was pretty evident that ICC's success didn't come from out of nowhere. I would imagine that where they are now is exactly what the school leadership envisioned when they started this process after the 2015 season.
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