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Post by coachnswords on Oct 18, 2017 10:22:03 GMT -6
Legit question....I've always wondered why a program would buy a "system" from a coach? I've seen some of them, and they're basically the same as every available playbook you can find. Am I missing something as to the advantage of doing something like this when you could get the same kinds of information from other coaches for free?
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Post by CS on Oct 18, 2017 10:34:08 GMT -6
Legit question....I've always wondered why a program would buy a "system" from a coach? I've seen some of them, and they're basically the same as every available playbook you can find. Am I missing something as to the advantage of doing something like this when you could get the same kinds of information from other coaches for free? I have never done it but I imagine it's for troubleshooting. Most of these guys selling systems have forums and even ways of getting in touch with them if you are having problems with something. Now you can figure that stuff out for yourself but this makes the learning curve steep and can IMO help you find greater success within the system learning it from a coach that has already battle tested it. |
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Post by fshamrock on Oct 18, 2017 10:50:49 GMT -6
I think it's probably a good thing for some, if anything it can keep an offense balanced and running things that fit together, sometimes offenses seem to be assembled by committee with everybody getting their thing in and none of it fits together, ya got buck sweep over here, some air raid passing game, throw in a little option etc, it's like the old saying, if you put a committee together to make a horse you end up with a camel. Maybe a system gets everybody on the same page.
I get that ideally you would have something put together organically that melds...but If you don't have that kind of thing going on, systems might be a good approach
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Post by agap on Oct 18, 2017 11:02:58 GMT -6
It's probably easier just to buy a system than research it yourself by looking stuff up online or meeting with coaches.
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Post by **** on Oct 18, 2017 11:11:14 GMT -6
I have bought offensive systems so I know how to defend it as a DC.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2017 11:28:44 GMT -6
Alot of things may factor into it, experience, time, situation etc...
Guys I know that have have for several reasons, sometimes they have hit a wall and feel they need to change directions, sometimes they hit a wall, and they have to change directions because now their job depends on it. Now, with the added bonus of being able to use it as a recruiting tool "We run the NZone etc.."
However some also just wanted to change for the sake of change, they felt they needed something different, be it for the right or wrong reasons
In a few cases, guys just wanted to change gears, try something different out of boredom and curiosity
Some guys meet these coaches at clinics, like what they have to say, get to speak with them, see that they are good guys (like Mazzone) and they feel hes who they want to emulate.
Some guys buy things because perhaps they feel its specific to their situation "for winning high school football" or "For the unique nature of youth football" etc..
Then there are guys who just buy into things because they believe the sellers claims .
Its just different for some guys
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Post by carookie on Oct 18, 2017 11:54:48 GMT -6
Probably because they (or someone in their program) assumes the system is better than anything they could come up with on their own or find online.
Maybe some do it to help sell their program, if you are fighting for players with the other local high schools and you can throw out the name of the program you run it could help sell.
I imagine a few out there do it because they have lost a lot before and it is a last ditch effort to convince admin they should keep their job. We know how much school admins love bringing in 'educationeers' to install buzzwords and flavors of the month; they probably eat this up.
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Post by Defcord on Oct 18, 2017 11:57:52 GMT -6
Things look a lot different on paper than they do on the field. The benefit to buying the system is the knowledge and coaching points that take it from playbook concept to on field performance.
I have no interest in reading an air raid playbook by itself, but if I get the playbook and access to Mike Leach to help me understand, install and adjust the system then I become more interested.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2017 12:08:07 GMT -6
Legit question....I've always wondered why a program would buy a "system" from a coach? I've seen some of them, and they're basically the same as every available playbook you can find. Am I missing something as to the advantage of doing something like this when you could get the same kinds of information from other coaches for free? A lot of it is because you don't get everything from a playbook. The systems are offenses or defenses in a box. The good ones I've seen not only include the playbook, but also a lot of advice on how to call it, run it, adjust it, and practice it. There's a lot of video as well as written materials and they really go a lot more in depth on the details than a 3 DVD series or playbook you download off the internet ever will. They also commonly have access to the "guru" selling the system (or at least other people fluent in it) who can help troubleshoot things when they aren't working, and some, like the TFS, even have special members-only clinics and things. This is another way to figure things out that might not be obvious on your own. These types of offenses or defenses in a box are also good for telling coaches what NOT to do, which can sometimes be just as important. For a coach who doesn't know the offense or has never been fortunate enough to have a mentor to teach them the basics of offense or defense, that stuff can be very valuable. I've coached against a total of 3 TFS systems in my career. Two were pretty good and a huge improvement over what they were pre-TFS (these were small staffs who had to rely on volunteer/non-faculty coaches without much experience, so TFS was very helpful in getting those guys up to speed), and the other was godawful because they just didn't block well and had no talent. As HS coaches, in some ways we're like local musicians who play in bar bands. Running a system-in-a-box is kind of like being a cover band, where running your own thing is like playing original material. A lot of guys can be much more successful copying someone else who's done a lot of the thinking and arranging for them, and sometimes it can even make them more marketable because it's a brand name that people are familiar with. I've seen several ads looking only for OCs who have experience with TFS, for example. Fans, administrators, and players may not know what "N-Zone" is, but if you tell them "We run Texas A&M's offense," they can get a clear picture of what to expect from you and that can get them excited. |
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Post by filmjunkie on Oct 18, 2017 16:55:59 GMT -6
(Full disclosure: I work with Rich Hargitt on his Surface To Air System - SurfaceToAirSystem.com)
We started this system very late in the game so to speak, around May or June of this year, and we've managed to get several schools on board already.
Speaking as someone who talks to a lot of these coaches during the signup process, there seems to be at least three reasons why guys sign up for something like this:
1. Small staff or otherwise limited resources - There are a lot of coaches out there who don't have a big staff, and/or have to coach multiple sports in addition to whatever teaching and family responsibilities they have. It's a lot harder to put in the offseason work to put together a great playbook and do the extra stuff to get an edge on your opponents when you've got all that stuff on your plate. So instead, a lot of guys prefer to spend a few hundred bucks to get access to clinic and game film resources where they don't have to leave the house.
2. Access to the Coach - I can't speak for other systems, but I know that Coach Hargitt is easy to reach by phone if you need him, plus each week during the season we have hour long (or longer if needed) group webinars where Coach Hargitt talks about stuff he's doing that week in his game plan or answers specific questions the coaches have. Like other people have said already, the playbook is one thing, but if you can get regular answers from the coach in a timely manner, it's like hiring an extra coach for your staff.
3. Teams looking for something different - We have several coaching staffs as a part of the system who don't take the playbook and run it "word-for-word" but instead just take a few RPO concepts and add them to what they've already been doing. Others use the "offense in a box" approach and run it verbatim. It really depends on what you're looking to add and how much you're willing to change.
Hopefully this was helpful and I apologize if it seems spammy, but I saw this topic and wanted to add the sorts of things that our coaches have talked to us about.
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Post by coachnswords on Oct 18, 2017 20:36:14 GMT -6
(Full disclosure: I work with Rich Hargitt on his Surface To Air System - SurfaceToAirSystem.com) We started this system very late in the game so to speak, around May or June of this year, and we've managed to get several schools on board already. Speaking as someone who talks to a lot of these coaches during the signup process, there seems to be at least three reasons why guys sign up for something like this: 1. Small staff or otherwise limited resources - There are a lot of coaches out there who don't have a big staff, and/or have to coach multiple sports in addition to whatever teaching and family responsibilities they have. It's a lot harder to put in the offseason work to put together a great playbook and do the extra stuff to get an edge on your opponents when you've got all that stuff on your plate. So instead, a lot of guys prefer to spend a few hundred bucks to get access to clinic and game film resources where they don't have to leave the house. 2. Access to the Coach - I can't speak for other systems, but I know that Coach Hargitt is easy to reach by phone if you need him, plus each week during the season we have hour long (or longer if needed) group webinars where Coach Hargitt talks about stuff he's doing that week in his game plan or answers specific questions the coaches have. Like other people have said already, the playbook is one thing, but if you can get regular answers from the coach in a timely manner, it's like hiring an extra coach for your staff. 3. Teams looking for something different - We have several coaching staffs as a part of the system who don't take the playbook and run it "word-for-word" but instead just take a few RPO concepts and add them to what they've already been doing. Others use the "offense in a box" approach and run it verbatim. It really depends on what you're looking to add and how much you're willing to change. Hopefully this was helpful and I apologize if it seems spammy, but I saw this topic and wanted to add the sorts of things that our coaches have talked to us about. I know Rich well! He and I have talked quite a few times! |
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Post by coachnswords on Oct 18, 2017 20:37:30 GMT -6
Good input here. I’ve always wondered but have just never asked. I don’t want anyone to think I was knocking that concept...whatever helps you win games is what’s important.
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Post by teachcoach on Oct 18, 2017 21:08:57 GMT -6
I know a very successful retired head coach that ran a "system" for 30 years. He helps install it at different schools in the region now. Keeps his hand in football without the full commitment. He is one of the best teachers I have ever been around and his halftime adjustments almost always led to a touchdown on the first drive. Just to have him around for a week of practice and installation would be a great leaning experience to a staff.
This is different from many of the systems that are for sale today, but may be an option for a program.
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Post by jml on Oct 18, 2017 21:11:02 GMT -6
The guys I see doing it are looking for something "new" and looking for a magic bullet. 90% of them don't stick with it more than one season.
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Post by spreadattack on Oct 18, 2017 21:29:53 GMT -6
As noted above there are lots of wrong reasons to buy a system, with the #1 issue being looking for a magic bullet. The reason to do it, in my mind, is if you have limited resources and/or experience and either need to get a coherent system in place quickly or need to undergo a philosophical change, and you need more than just changing some formations and plays and instead need the benefit of the coaching community/resources/additional materials to help you teach, install and troubleshoot the system. Those are compelling reasons and it's why many coaches have had a lot of success with "systems in a can" -- it can really accelerate the coach learning process.
Now, that's not for everyone, it also means you're buying someone else's system and not coming up with your own to fit your specific situation (at least at first), and it may simply not be worth the money, and finally if there's no community or personal resources then it's really not worth it.
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Post by chi5hi on Oct 18, 2017 22:36:30 GMT -6
I have bought offensive systems so I know how to defend it as a DC. Exactly! Like George Patton said..."Rommel, I read your book!" |
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Post by coachklee on Oct 19, 2017 2:52:25 GMT -6
I know a very successful retired head coach that ran a "system" for 30 years. He helps install it at different schools in the region now. Keeps his hand in football without the full commitment. He is one of the best teachers I have ever been around and his halftime adjustments almost always led to a touchdown on the first drive. Just to have him around for a week of practice and installation would be a great leaning experience to a staff. This is different from many of the systems that are for sale today, but may be an option for a program. What type of system & where? PM me please if it is Option & anywhere in the Midwest... |
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Post by jg08mhs on Oct 19, 2017 4:40:00 GMT -6
I have bought offensive systems so I know how to defend it as a DC. That's funny; I had you pegged as a kool-aid drinking visor wearing kind of dude lol |
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Post by rsmith627 on Oct 19, 2017 5:05:19 GMT -6
I know a very successful retired head coach that ran a "system" for 30 years. He helps install it at different schools in the region now. Keeps his hand in football without the full commitment. He is one of the best teachers I have ever been around and his halftime adjustments almost always led to a touchdown on the first drive. Just to have him around for a week of practice and installation would be a great leaning experience to a staff. This is different from many of the systems that are for sale today, but may be an option for a program. What type of system & where? PM me please if it is Option & anywhere in the Midwest... Coach, I have ran the option. I'll sell you my system for $1000. I'll start developing it right now. Seriously though, I love option football. If you ever want to talk flexbone, let me know. I coached under a good guy who coached at Navy, and is now the HC at Southern Virginia (D3 school) running it. |
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Post by **** on Oct 19, 2017 5:18:04 GMT -6
I have bought offensive systems so I know how to defend it as a DC. That's funny; I had you pegged as a kool-aid drinking visor wearing kind of dude lol I also run facemelter |
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Post by runthei on Oct 19, 2017 8:58:49 GMT -6
The place where I am currently invested in the Tony Franklin System because the head man (defensive guy) brought in an OC before me that had no experience and someone recommended that system to him. It gives guys a "what to do" situation without having to prep for it.
We still have all the articles, videos and templates that it came with and I would say that it's beneficial on the fact of how many different drills dvds you get and film on what certain concepts are supposed to look like. It's a heck of a lot more in-depth than just buying a dvd series.
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Post by Coach Vint on Oct 19, 2017 10:14:33 GMT -6
A buddy of mine was running the wing-t and took over at a school that had historically not been good and ran the ball. He went to a TFS clinic and bought in. He has installed it at a few schools and has had a lot of success. He goes to a TFS System clinic each year to get together with other coaches running it and to get new wrinkles. He now has adapted some things to fit his personality. He runs the ball more, but his pass game is pretty true to the system.
Another friend of mine went to the NZone a few years ago. He had been a successful option coach and wanted to do something different. He then took what he learned and built it to his own liking.
The big issue is that whatever you run you have to know the ins and outs. You have to be able to troubleshoot.
I find it beneficial to go visit other coaches who have had success doing things we do, and figure out what we can do better. I love visiting with position coaches to learn more about fundamentals as well. There is nothing wrong with buying a system. But don't buy a system just to buy a system.
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Post by bignose on Oct 19, 2017 10:37:31 GMT -6
I've been doing this for wellover 40 years.
If I want to introduce new system, I can pretty much "reverse engineer" it if enough video is available. Hudl and the internet make that possible.
That's for the "big picture" but when it comes to the subtle nuances of application of various techniques, especially if you are not a very experienced coach, buying a system makes a lot of sense.
Example, I've coached the Wing-T dozens of times as a scout offense, enough to show our defense the playsI
I know the plays and series, quite well.
But if I wanted to install it, I would get a system, if only to see exactly what the footwork and blocking scheme were.
It's one thing to have a scout team run a Buck Sweep, it's a whole other deal to run this to perfection as an identity play against any defense you may come across.
Too many "Daddy" coaches try to reverse engineer something that they see on Saturday, or worse Sunday, and don't get it when their 10 year old can't do what an "All World" QB can do. Unrealistic and not skill level appropriate.
I will confess, we purchased a rather popular system a couple of years ago. All of this Coach's diagrams and video clips were run vs. a 7 man front.
Guess what, some of his concepts weren't sound vs. an 8 man front.
And 3/4 of our opponents were in 8 man fronts.
He and I exchanged some ideas over the phone, but the bottom line was an 8 man front limited us to like 2 plays out of his package.
Waste of time, and money.
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Post by rsmith627 on Oct 19, 2017 12:28:39 GMT -6
I haven’t bought but could see myself doing so from the standpoint of all of that drill tape.
From an X and O standpoint I think I’m probably as smart as anybody. Where I am weaker (still adequate but need to keep growing) is drilling individual positions, and more so making it applicable to the system I currently run.
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Post by chidesta on Oct 19, 2017 12:44:12 GMT -6
That's funny; I had you pegged as a kool-aid drinking visor wearing kind of dude lol I also run facemelter Man I love kool-aid, but I must say Tang is still better. And a White Visor is the only way to go, I mean you can wear it like 4 different ways how cool is that? |
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Post by chidesta on Oct 19, 2017 12:47:13 GMT -6
What type of system & where? PM me please if it is Option & anywhere in the Midwest... Coach, I have ran the option. I'll sell you my system for $1000. I'll start developing it right now. Seriously though, I love option football. If you ever want to talk flexbone, let me know. I coached under a good guy who coached at Navy, and is now the HC at Southern Virginia (D3 school) running it. The HC's Dad is who you should learn the Flexbone/Wishbone from, now that dude is legit. |
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Post by rsmith627 on Oct 19, 2017 12:59:25 GMT -6
Coach, I have ran the option. I'll sell you my system for $1000. I'll start developing it right now. Seriously though, I love option football. If you ever want to talk flexbone, let me know. I coached under a good guy who coached at Navy, and is now the HC at Southern Virginia (D3 school) running it. The HC's Dad is who you should learn the Flexbone/Wishbone from, now that dude is legit. He is incredible as well, and a genuinely great man from a personal standpoint. Both of them are awesome. |
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Post by funkfriss on Oct 20, 2017 9:15:34 GMT -6
Legit question....I've always wondered why a program would buy a "system" from a coach? I've seen some of them, and they're basically the same as every available playbook you can find. Am I missing something as to the advantage of doing something like this when you could get the same kinds of information from other coaches for free? Because "playbook guy" gets his @$$ kicked while "system guy" wins games. I could completely install the Wing-T offense next season from the knowledge I have of the plays. I know the Belly Series, Buck Series, Jet Series, and Down Series. I can draw up the plays and their constraints. Could I tell you OL technique? Nope. QB footwork? Nope. Formation, play calling whens and whys? Nope. That's why you invest in the systems. It's like going to a clinic and taking a guy's offense or defense down on paper, but then you can have access to that guy whenever you want it. Can't remember exactly what he was talking about from your notes? You can watch a video online through the subscription. Wondering how he installs it? You can watch him install it with his team or ask him questions directly and get answers in a short time. I'm not directing this at you coachnswords as I think your intentions were well-meaning, but I can't stand people who look down at coaches who seek out help for their schemes. Like all good coaches are supposed to come out of the womb football geniuses and innovators. It's the same way people marvel at the players with talent more than the players who have worked their @$$es off to be good. Like there's some sort of coolness or badge of honor for not seeking help or exerting much effort to get better. (stepping off soap box...) |
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Post by coachnswords on Oct 20, 2017 12:37:20 GMT -6
Legit question....I've always wondered why a program would buy a "system" from a coach? I've seen some of them, and they're basically the same as every available playbook you can find. Am I missing something as to the advantage of doing something like this when you could get the same kinds of information from other coaches for free? Because "playbook guy" gets his @$$ kicked while "system guy" wins games. I could completely install the Wing-T offense next season from the knowledge I have of the plays. I know the Belly Series, Buck Series, Jet Series, and Down Series. I can draw up the plays and their constraints. Could I tell you OL technique? Nope. QB footwork? Nope. Formation, play calling whens and whys? Nope. That's why you invest in the systems. It's like going to a clinic and taking a guy's offense or defense down on paper, but then you can have access to that guy whenever you want it. Can't remember exactly what he was talking about from your notes? You can watch a video online through the subscription. Wondering how he installs it? You can watch him install it with his team or ask him questions directly and get answers in a short time. I'm not directing this at you coachnswords as I think your intentions were well-meaning, but I can't stand people who look down at coaches who seek out help for their schemes. Like all good coaches are supposed to come out of the womb football geniuses and innovators. It's the same way people marvel at the players with talent more than the players who have worked their @$$es off to be good. Like there's some sort of coolness or badge of honor for not seeking help or exerting much effort to get better. (stepping off soap box...) No offense taken at all. I have honestly just always wondered. I know guys who have invested in systems, and I know guys who have been around good people and have just collected a lot of information and put it into use. I understand completely everything that people have said as to the whys. I don't want anyone to think I was looking down on guys that invest in the systems that are available. |
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Post by newt21 on Oct 22, 2017 9:33:56 GMT -6
I've personally bought stuff in regards to how different guys package and teach their systems, for example I bought Gus Malzahn's book because I wanted to see how he did things beyond the X's and O's. Didn't change our X's and O's but definitely helped to simplify parts of our communication between coaches and players, which is worth every dime IMO.
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