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Post by rsmith627 on Sept 19, 2017 7:07:10 GMT -6
s.mlive.com/Q0CoKdVThe article keeps referring to this concussion as a brain injury. If you saw only the headline you'd think the young man was going to die. Dangerous rhetoric.
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Post by natenator on Sept 19, 2017 8:33:19 GMT -6
I hate to break it to you but a concussion is classified as a Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI) and rightfully so.
Just because we don't like that term or what it implies for this sport does not make it incorrect.
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Post by StraightFlexin on Sept 19, 2017 8:47:09 GMT -6
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Post by rsmith627 on Sept 19, 2017 9:17:00 GMT -6
I hate to break it to you but a concussion is classified as a Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI) and rightfully so. Just because we don't like that term or what it implies for this sport does not make it incorrect. Oh, for sure. Just haven't seen many articles carry on that way in the past. Usually it's so and so has a minor concussion and will be back in x weeks.
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Post by StraightFlexin on Sept 19, 2017 9:28:56 GMT -6
everything is just click bait, but there is often a difference between sports. Jeff Ferrell caught a line drive at 102 mph to the head yesterday, but there will not be a headline that says "Ferrell says his goodbye to his parents at hospital, just in case"
I'd rather get hit by JJ Watt then drilled in the face by a line drive. And let us not forget about the peaceful dove that was ruthlessly slaughtered by Randy Johnson just 6,026 days ago
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Post by bigmoot on Sept 19, 2017 10:44:00 GMT -6
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Post by coachcb on Sept 19, 2017 14:47:02 GMT -6
www.nature.com/tp/journal/v7/n9/full/tp2017197a.html?foxtrotcallback=trueThis is the actual study itself.. What they are describing as "clinically significant" barely cuts the mustard. And there are far too many confounding variables for them to actually deduce that concussions are causing all of these issues. But, what do you expect from a journal that publishes itself via the website "nature.com"...
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Post by natenator on Sept 19, 2017 15:07:19 GMT -6
But, what do you expect from a journal that publishes itself via the website "nature.com"... Curious what you mean by this statement?
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Post by coachcb on Sept 19, 2017 15:39:20 GMT -6
But, what do you expect from a journal that publishes itself via the website "nature.com"... Curious what you mean by this statement? It doesn't appear as if the journal is published through a reputable site. Especially given the fact that they are talking about serious medical issues. I would have more faith in the study if it came through The American Journal Of Psychiatry or The Journal of Psychiatric Research. And, again, the researchers are making a huge jump in their article. They are not only stating that there is a statistically significant correlation between football and a variety of mental health issues but they are basically saying it's "cause and effect" (football=mental health issues). They are violating Rule Number 1 in research; there is no such thing as "cause and effect"; there is just data that shows a relationship between the variables. Now, I imagine if they cross-referenced their findings on those batteries of tests with other variables (such as drug/alcohol use) they would find a "statistically significant correlation" as well.
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Post by natenator on Sept 19, 2017 16:39:45 GMT -6
Curious what you mean by this statement? It doesn't appear as if the journal is published through a reputable site. Especially given the fact that they are talking about serious medical issues. I would have more faith in the study if it came through The American Journal Of Psychiatry or The Journal of Psychiatric Research. And, again, the researchers are making a huge jump in their article. They are not only stating that there is a statistically significant correlation between football and a variety of mental health issues but they are basically saying it's "cause and effect" (football=mental health issues). They are violating Rule Number 1 in research; there is no such thing as "cause and effect"; there is just data that shows a relationship between the variables. Now, I imagine if they cross-referenced their findings on those batteries of tests with other variables (such as drug/alcohol use) they would find a "statistically significant correlation" as well. Fair enough. Though, its impact factor is not as high as AJP, Translational Psychiatry is ranked 22 of 142 in the Psychiatry category. So not entirely pure crap. That said, Nature sets a pretty high standard for published research. Your critiques of the study are certainly valid.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2017 19:21:07 GMT -6
www.nature.com/tp/journal/v7/n9/full/tp2017197a.html?foxtrotcallback=trueThis is the actual study itself.. What they are describing as "clinically significant" barely cuts the mustard. And there are far too many confounding variables for them to actually deduce that concussions are causing all of these issues. But, what do you expect from a journal that publishes itself via the website "nature.com"... From Boston University's "CTE Center," which is led by Dr. Ann McKee ("A C McKee"), one of the two people who have turned the CTE scare into a career-making gravy train. I'm not surprised. Not at all. This study was based off NFL players and looked only at phone and online surveys. Her research methods are garbage. She knows this. Yet she still keeps pushing it to come up with shocking junk science like this and keep her name in the limelight, as well as keep the cash from the NFLPA coming as they sue the NFL for millions over "brain damage caused by CTE." She's bought and paid for, as is the "Boston University CTE Center" and the researchers who work there. The center she works for was founded in the late 2000s by a former WWE wrestler (and Harvard football player) who retired after a series of concussions and wanted research to help him sue the WWE for millions, claiming they hid the risk of concussions from him. He's listed as an author of this study ("C.J. Nowinsky"--he's not a doctor). It is now largely funded by the NFLPA to produce research that is favorable to their ongoing case against the NFL. She also gets paid handsome fees for books and public appearances on "the dangers of football." The thing I've come to learn as I've dug deeper into this CTE hysteria is that it's largely a scam as the NFLPA angles for huge sums of money for its retirees and is fighting this battle in the press since they know they can't actually get what they want in court. But the media doesn't report on that because they are mostly from a class of society who doesn't play football and looks down on it as a freak show for barbaric rednecks. The funny thing is that people say this is proof that football should be banned and people should take up soccer instead. But guess what? Of the 6 professional soccer players that the BUCC has examined, 4 of those (66%!!!!) were diagnosed as having CTE by their very flimsy definition!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2017 19:27:20 GMT -6
Curious what you mean by this statement? It doesn't appear as if the journal is published through a reputable site. Especially given the fact that they are talking about serious medical issues. I would have more faith in the study if it came through The American Journal Of Psychiatry or The Journal of Psychiatric Research. And, again, the researchers are making a huge jump in their article. They are not only stating that there is a statistically significant correlation between football and a variety of mental health issues but they are basically saying it's "cause and effect" (football=mental health issues). They are violating Rule Number 1 in research; there is no such thing as "cause and effect"; there is just data that shows a relationship between the variables. Now, I imagine if they cross-referenced their findings on those batteries of tests with other variables (such as drug/alcohol use) they would find a "statistically significant correlation" as well. "Nature" is fairly reputable, but they seem more concerned with getting attention than scientific rigor at times. Your criticism is valid. The real thing to cross reference is opioid use. What they call "CTE" has also been found in the brains of opioid abusers and it makes sense that NFL players would have had a lot of pain killers over their careers and in retirement, especially back in the old days. Funny how they don't control for that...
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Post by coachcb on Sept 20, 2017 7:49:31 GMT -6
They do a very good job of using a valid battery of tests but they are certainly over-reaching by trying to correlate football directly to these mental health issues.
I know that concussions are a very real issue in football but I wish folks would take a step back and look at the bigger picture here. Kids have been playing this game for decades in this country and we didn't suddenly have a wave of studies detailing the evils of football until the media got a hold of the autopsy report of a former NFL football player who suffered from brain damage.
This isn't just an issue that is limited to football; it's in other sports as well. One of our juniors had her sports career end last week after she was hit in the head with a volleyball at a game. This is her third concussion in two years with the other two coming from basketball. She has been cleared to run cross country and track (no jumping, hurdles or pole vault) but no more ball sports. We have another very good track athlete who won't be playing any ball sports this year because he has two concussions and is afraid that he won't be able compete in the jumps if he picks up another one.
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Post by silkyice on Sept 20, 2017 7:59:38 GMT -6
They do a very good job of using a valid battery of tests but they are certainly over-reaching by trying to correlate football directly to these mental health issues. I know that concussions are a very real issue in football but I wish folks would take a step back and look at the bigger picture here. Kids have been playing this game for decades in this country and we didn't suddenly have a wave of studies detailing the evils of football until the media got a hold of the autopsy report of a former NFL football player who suffered from brain damage. This isn't just an issue that is limited to football; it's in other sports as well. One of our juniors had her sports career end last week after she was hit in the head with a volleyball at a game. This is her third concussion in two years with the other two coming from basketball. She has been cleared to run cross country and track (no jumping, hurdles or pole vault) but no more ball sports. We have another very good track athlete who won't be playing any ball sports this year because he has two concussions and is afraid that he won't be able compete in the jumps if he picks up another one. Not down playing concussions at all. But can a volleyball really concuss someone?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2017 8:06:27 GMT -6
And the thing about Mike Webster is that he had a lot more wrong with him than just football. He was an alcoholic and drug addict with several mental illnesses including bipolar disorder and depression and had a family history of all those things. His life after football was tragic and sad, but it likely would have been hard if he had never played.
BTW, Dr. Bennet Omalu used to say publicly that he spoke to Mike Webster's ghost about how the game had wronged him and promised his ghost that he would get justice by ending football. Then he carried out most of his famous research by himself in his garage with no oversight. He stopped talking about those things when major supporters of his backed away from him in light of those comments.
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Post by dubber on Sept 20, 2017 8:19:28 GMT -6
ESPN: "tackle football is bad"
[commercial break]
ESPN: "Now, highlights of Panthers/Saints....watch Luke Kuechly lay out this WR......BOOM!"
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Post by coachcb on Sept 20, 2017 10:30:32 GMT -6
They do a very good job of using a valid battery of tests but they are certainly over-reaching by trying to correlate football directly to these mental health issues. I know that concussions are a very real issue in football but I wish folks would take a step back and look at the bigger picture here. Kids have been playing this game for decades in this country and we didn't suddenly have a wave of studies detailing the evils of football until the media got a hold of the autopsy report of a former NFL football player who suffered from brain damage. This isn't just an issue that is limited to football; it's in other sports as well. One of our juniors had her sports career end last week after she was hit in the head with a volleyball at a game. This is her third concussion in two years with the other two coming from basketball. She has been cleared to run cross country and track (no jumping, hurdles or pole vault) but no more ball sports. We have another very good track athlete who won't be playing any ball sports this year because he has two concussions and is afraid that he won't be able compete in the jumps if he picks up another one. Not down playing concussions at all. But can a volleyball really concuss someone? Honestly, I don't believe so but the doctors aren't taking any chances with concussions at this point. I don't believe that they even administered a second IMPACT test in this case; the doctor stated that there were symptoms of a concussion and that she was done playing. I got drilled in the head with basketball while teaching PE last week and it rung my bell but I certainly wouldn't call myself "concussed". I think that this is relative to the doctor being seen as well. Our starting 3 tech/strong guard had a serious concussion during our second game (lost consciousness, couldn't walk off of the field on his own, was dry heaving) and the doctor only pulled him out for one game... IMO, he needed to be pulled for two weeks, kept under close watch and reevaluated twice.
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Post by gccwolverine on Sept 20, 2017 10:40:32 GMT -6
They do a very good job of using a valid battery of tests but they are certainly over-reaching by trying to correlate football directly to these mental health issues. I know that concussions are a very real issue in football but I wish folks would take a step back and look at the bigger picture here. Kids have been playing this game for decades in this country and we didn't suddenly have a wave of studies detailing the evils of football until the media got a hold of the autopsy report of a former NFL football player who suffered from brain damage. This isn't just an issue that is limited to football; it's in other sports as well. One of our juniors had her sports career end last week after she was hit in the head with a volleyball at a game. This is her third concussion in two years with the other two coming from basketball. She has been cleared to run cross country and track (no jumping, hurdles or pole vault) but no more ball sports. We have another very good track athlete who won't be playing any ball sports this year because he has two concussions and is afraid that he won't be able compete in the jumps if he picks up another one. Not down playing concussions at all. But can a volleyball really concuss someone? Whiplash effect.... Yes, yes it can.
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Post by gccwolverine on Sept 20, 2017 10:41:31 GMT -6
And the thing about Mike Webster is that he had a lot more wrong with him than just football. He was an alcoholic and drug addict with several mental illnesses including bipolar disorder and depression and had a family history of all those things. His life after football was tragic and sad, but it likely would have been hard if he had never played. BTW, Dr. Bennet Omalu used to say publicly that he spoke to Mike Webster's ghost about how the game had wronged him and promised his ghost that he would get justice by ending football. Then he carried out most of his famous research by himself in his garage with no oversight. He stopped talking about those things when major supporters of his backed away from him in light of those comments. The guy just comes off as a crazy nut.
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Post by gccwolverine on Sept 20, 2017 10:46:07 GMT -6
Not down playing concussions at all. But can a volleyball really concuss someone? Honestly, I don't believe so but the doctors aren't taking any chances with concussions at this point. I don't believe that they even administered a second IMPACT test in this case; the doctor stated that there were symptoms of a concussion and that she was done playing. I got drilled in the head with basketball while teaching PE last week and it rung my bell but I certainly wouldn't call myself "concussed". I think that this is relative to the doctor being seen as well. Our starting 3 tech/strong guard had a serious concussion during our second game (lost consciousness, couldn't walk off of the field on his own, was dry heaving) and the doctor only pulled him out for one game... IMO, he needed to be pulled for two weeks, kept under close watch and reevaluated twice. We had a kid who was held out for 3 weeks by his pediatrician because he couldn't touch his toes.... f**k if that were really a measuring stick of if you can be playing or not I'd venture to say 85% of the players in the game across the country wouldn't be playing. And the thing is.... Mom went with it and almost stopped the Dr. from clearing him to play week 4 when apparently his hamstring flexibility improved to where he could put his palms on the ground.
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Post by fantom on Sept 20, 2017 11:07:38 GMT -6
Not down playing concussions at all. But can a volleyball really concuss someone? Whiplash effect.... Yes, yes it can. Especially with girls, who may not have the musculature to withstand a hard spike if it hits them in the head.
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Post by Stangs13065 on Sept 20, 2017 11:10:42 GMT -6
I'm sure a ton of you have read the article published by the brain surgeon about why he's letting his 11 year old son play football. I think it segues nicely to my point that the purpose of all of these studies getting attention isn't so parents are more informed. The media has launched a slander campaign against the sport because they know fear mongering leads to views and clicks. Most of the studies out there on this issue are correlation-based studies. Not that correlation-based studies aren't useful, but it's dangerous when people use them as fact. Correlation doesn't equal causation. There's a reason you don't see articles by doctors who are saying the research is inconclusive and most studies against the sport are biased (Not saying that they don't raise interesting questions - but the sample size is biased). They don't fit their doomsday narrative
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Post by rsmith627 on Sept 20, 2017 11:47:49 GMT -6
I'm sure a ton of you have read the article published by the brain surgeon about why he's letting his 11 year old son play football. I think it segues nicely to my point that the purpose of all of these studies getting attention isn't so parents are more informed. The media has launched a slander campaign against the sport because they know fear mongering leads to views and clicks. Most of the studies out there on this issue are correlation-based studies. Not that correlation-based studies aren't useful, but it's dangerous when people use them as fact. Correlation doesn't equal causation. There's a reason you don't see articles by doctors who are saying the research is inconclusive and most studies against the sport are biased (Not saying that they don't raise interesting questions - but the sample size is biased). They don't fit their doomsday narrative This is a great way to phrase the true point of this post. The doomsday narrative, and now wording headlines to sound like guys are dying when they're just going to be out a week or 2 with a concussion. Concussions are a very big deal, and a very real threat, but the constant smear campaign is getting ridiculously out of hand.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2017 17:12:02 GMT -6
I'm sure a ton of you have read the article published by the brain surgeon about why he's letting his 11 year old son play football. I think it segues nicely to my point that the purpose of all of these studies getting attention isn't so parents are more informed. The media has launched a slander campaign against the sport because they know fear mongering leads to views and clicks. Most of the studies out there on this issue are correlation-based studies. Not that correlation-based studies aren't useful, but it's dangerous when people use them as fact. Correlation doesn't equal causation. There's a reason you don't see articles by doctors who are saying the research is inconclusive and most studies against the sport are biased (Not saying that they don't raise interesting questions - but the sample size is biased). They don't fit their doomsday narrative I dare anyone to find a "football causes brain damage" article that either: A.) Is actually written by a doctor. B.) Does not cite Ann McKee or a Boston University study (where most of this is coming from now using flimsy methods). C.) Does not cite Dr. Bennet Omalu (who is clearly delusional and crazy... I've already given some reasons why in this thread). You would be hard pressed to find it. This is all about money by people who simply hate football. This sensationalism generates clicks and it leads to big lawsuit money for ex-players and their families. Just look at the most recent Aaron Hernandez headline, who also had CTE "confirmed" by Boston University, and involves his attorney suing for millions on behalf of his daughter.
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Post by wingtol on Sept 21, 2017 18:23:40 GMT -6
It doesn't appear as if the journal is published through a reputable site. Especially given the fact that they are talking about serious medical issues. I would have more faith in the study if it came through The American Journal Of Psychiatry or The Journal of Psychiatric Research. And, again, the researchers are making a huge jump in their article. They are not only stating that there is a statistically significant correlation between football and a variety of mental health issues but they are basically saying it's "cause and effect" (football=mental health issues). They are violating Rule Number 1 in research; there is no such thing as "cause and effect"; there is just data that shows a relationship between the variables. Now, I imagine if they cross-referenced their findings on those batteries of tests with other variables (such as drug/alcohol use) they would find a "statistically significant correlation" as well. "Nature" is fairly reputable, but they seem more concerned with getting attention than scientific rigor at times. Your criticism is valid. The real thing to cross reference is opioid use. What they call "CTE" has also been found in the brains of opioid abusers and it makes sense that NFL players would have had a lot of pain killers over their careers and in retirement, especially back in the old days. Funny how they don't control for that... This. I've said for a long time, God only knows what guys are pumping into their bodies during their careers. Would love to see studies address this in the future.
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Post by Chris Clement on Sept 21, 2017 20:53:45 GMT -6
Whiplash effect.... Yes, yes it can. Especially with girls, who may not have the musculature to withstand a hard spike if it hits them in the head. Also liberos hitting their head on the floor when digging. Old HC's daughter was a high-end Liberia who had a lot of concussions that way. And a well-spiked volleyball will concuss anyone. It has similar momentum to a hard-thrown football.
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 21, 2017 21:51:50 GMT -6
They do a very good job of using a valid battery of tests but they are certainly over-reaching by trying to correlate football directly to these mental health issues. I know that concussions are a very real issue in football but I wish folks would take a step back and look at the bigger picture here. Kids have been playing this game for decades in this country and we didn't suddenly have a wave of studies detailing the evils of football until the media got a hold of the autopsy report of a former NFL football player who suffered from brain damage. This isn't just an issue that is limited to football; it's in other sports as well. One of our juniors had her sports career end last week after she was hit in the head with a volleyball at a game. This is her third concussion in two years with the other two coming from basketball. She has been cleared to run cross country and track (no jumping, hurdles or pole vault) but no more ball sports. We have another very good track athlete who won't be playing any ball sports this year because he has two concussions and is afraid that he won't be able compete in the jumps if he picks up another one. Not down playing concussions at all. But can a volleyball really concuss someone? Absolutely. Top men are hitting between 70 and 80 MPH... I would suspect (and a quick internet search cited an informal studying showing) average HS females are hitting at about half that..which is still 40 MPH. Definitely enough momentum to produce some whiplash issues as another poster mentioned. The key is simply that things hitting the head is bad. Helmets are designed to prevent skull fracture, not brain injury. The brain is still very much an unsolved mystery to our medical professionals. Decisions need to be made on these facts.
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Post by CS on Sept 22, 2017 3:35:31 GMT -6
www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/20777856I was going to start a thread but since we are talking about concussions I figured this fit. Aaron Hernandez's lawyer wishes he would have claimed CTE as a defense.
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Post by rsmith627 on Sept 22, 2017 3:59:06 GMT -6
www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/20777856I was going to start a thread but since we are talking about concussions I figured this fit. Aaron Hernandez's lawyer wishes he would have claimed CTE as a defense. I saw that. Last night I saw a thread on twitter about how kids and teenagers are now testing positive with CTE after playing youth and high school football according to "several studies." Not one link or citation though. Don't you have to be dead to be checked for CTE?
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Post by CS on Sept 22, 2017 4:09:34 GMT -6
www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/20777856I was going to start a thread but since we are talking about concussions I figured this fit. Aaron Hernandez's lawyer wishes he would have claimed CTE as a defense. I saw that. Last night I saw a thread on twitter about how kids and teenagers are now testing positive with CTE after playing youth and high school football according to "several studies." Not one link or citation though. Don't you have to be dead to be checked for CTE? Here is my problem with it...CTE caused his violent mood swings so much so that it made him kill someone, premeditate his alibi, and then get rid of any evidence linking him to the victim. If we have another domestic violence case will they be able to claim CTE?? This is a serious issue but I fear that if this is where we are headed its about to be a phuking clown car driving into a burning building.
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