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Post by bigmoot on Aug 12, 2017 15:47:58 GMT -6
for me it's the depth. we only have 35 or so kids each year. that one kid is important, he may be the 3rd guard, or backup ILB. makes us real thin. 35 kids on Varsity? 35 kids 9-12? I get what you are saying, but if you are talking about having 35 kids on Varsity, then that is supporting what I mentioned above. 35 kids on varsity...with only 22 starting positions on O and D means someone is not playing. Not playing on Friday, in today's social environment, could very well mean not playing football. 35 total 9-12.
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 12, 2017 15:55:23 GMT -6
35 kids on Varsity? 35 kids 9-12? I get what you are saying, but if you are talking about having 35 kids on Varsity, then that is supporting what I mentioned above. 35 kids on varsity...with only 22 starting positions on O and D means someone is not playing. Not playing on Friday, in today's social environment, could very well mean not playing football. 35 total 9-12. Yeah, that is a different dynamic. I think with those numbers, you get stuck because you have kids who aren't playing because they CAN'T PLAY Varsity yet, but you don't have the numbers to really flesh out sub varsity teams to provide the opportunity to play.
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Post by mariner42 on Aug 12, 2017 18:40:28 GMT -6
We have a really bad problem with attrition between 9th and 10th grade and then 10th and 11th. From frosh groups of around 45-50 I get a JV group of 35 or so and I then pass on about 20 to the varsity. This year has been particularly rough in that from 45 freshmen I've gotten 30ish sophomores. Not a lot of kids are committing to a four year career these days, lots of dabbling and moving on when the work gets serious. Is it because the work gets serious, or is it a combination of increased (possibly excessive) demands plus a realization that they won't really play? One thing that doesn't seem to be mentioned when talking about dwindling numbers is that the same "entitlement" issues we complain about regarding other aspects of football/life. I see many threads mocking (deservedly so) parents for whining about little Johnny not being able to play. It would seem a natural offshoot of that is little Johnny simply not coming out. Little of A, little of B. We lose legit contributors/studs every year because baseball and basketball and golf are easier. We also lose some 'bag holders' every year because they just don't have the disposition and/or talent for the game. I do think there's a natural thinning of the herd that goes on over the course of 4 years, it's not for everyone, even if they initially think it is.
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Post by 3rdandlong on Aug 12, 2017 21:31:52 GMT -6
My issue with Long Beach Poly is the fact that they hired Antonio Pierce in the first place. I even made a comment about it on this board. Hiring a former NFL player," whose full time job is at ESPN and who openly said he will be there when he can is a slap in the face to so many qualified HS coaches in SoCal who are far more qualified. The Jack Rabbits went with the splash hire and cared more about style than substance. I cannot confirm nor deny the hiring is the reason for their low numbers, but why wouldn't they hire an actual coach??!! I don't know Antonio Pierce personally, never met him before, and for all I know he could be a tremendous coach. But I can tell you that the name of the game for big time SoCal schools is "Recruiting". Yup, thats right, getting talent to come to your high school. One of the best ways to do this is to hire on a few NFL players as coaches and hope the name sells to parents and kids alike. This doesn't mean that the former players are bad coaches, they could be very good; just that their NFL recognition bring an additional benefit. Once again I don't know about LBP specifically just addressing one of the underlying premises of your point. I agree. I don't know him personally either and he could be a great coach. But I do know that there are tons of educators/football coaches who would have loved to have an opportunity for ge LBP job. I believe a program witht he history of LBP should not have a walk on/part time coach. And I get what you're saying. It's all about getting kids in and recruiting players here in SoCal which is something I'm not a big fan of.
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famar
Sophomore Member
Looking to learn as much as I can from this site and all of the coaches here.
Posts: 208
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Post by famar on Aug 12, 2017 21:36:51 GMT -6
We have around 50 grades 10-12 with only 11 seniors, and around 25 freshmen. We had 2 defensive starters from last year that decided not to play this year, and a kid who showed promise last year hemmed and hawed all spring then waited until July to decide that he wanted to play, but had missed all of the summer stuff and was told don't bother.
There are two schools in this region (Southern NJ) that won't be fielding varsity teams this year. One is a very small school, Pitman, that has traditionally been a bottom feeder, finished last season with around 20 kids and was looking at around 20 again this year when they pulled the plug in May. The other school is a larger school, West Windsor-Plainsboro North, that's part of a two school town, they applied to the state to go co-op this year with the other school in town and got rejected so they shelved their varsity program. Wildwood, which I believe is the smallest public school in NJ that fields a varsity football team, always struggles with numbers (most years they are in the high teens to high twenties) and is always a threat to shelve their program.
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Post by blb on Aug 13, 2017 6:07:48 GMT -6
Kids no longer are going to work as hard as coaches ask them to (Off-Season especially) just to sit the bench in name of camaraderie or school spirit.
I had a few kids who did not come out as Juniors because they did not project themselves to be starters, but then came back out as Seniors because they figured they'd play then!
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Post by fantom on Aug 13, 2017 11:31:12 GMT -6
Kids no longer are going to work as hard as coaches ask them to (Off-Season especially) just to sit the bench in name of camaraderie or school spirit. And why should they? When I first went out for football I wasn't thinking, "Boy, four years of getting blown up on scout team!. What more can a boy ask for?".
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 13, 2017 11:39:12 GMT -6
Kids no longer are going to work as hard as coaches ask them to (Off-Season especially) just to sit the bench in name of camaraderie or school spirit. And why should they? When I first went out for football I wasn't thinking, "Boy, four years of getting blown up on scout team!. What more can a boy ask for?". And with the proliferation of youth teams of all sports, it does mean that a successful and popular HS football program probably needs to offer more than just the ability to play football.
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Post by B-gap-attack on Aug 13, 2017 12:25:45 GMT -6
Until coaches start really attempting to make football an experience for these kids I feel like you're going to continue to see numbers drop. The other day I was Joking with a buddy of mine about the kids in the band. "Man they get to go to all the games and miss school just like we did, it doesn't matter if the football teams wins or loses to them. They have a grand ole time. Go on elaborate multi day trips places." A local JR high took their band to a competition in Disney world. I mean. As coaches, we can't compete for these bottom feeder kids when it's probably more fun and less work.
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Post by B-gap-attack on Aug 13, 2017 12:28:36 GMT -6
Until coaches start really attempting to make football an experience for these kids I feel like you're going to continue to see numbers drop. The other day I was Joking with a buddy of mine about the kids in the band. "Man they get to go to all the games and miss school just like we did, it doesn't matter if the football teams wins or loses to them. They have a grand ole time. Go on elaborate multi day trips places." A local JR high took their band to a competition in Disney world. I mean. As coaches, we can't compete for these bottom feeder kids when it's probably more fun and less work. I mean. I hate it, but put yourself in the 4th string kid who will never play and gets the hell beat out of him every week.
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Post by blb on Aug 15, 2017 15:45:27 GMT -6
A friend of mine who teaches at a school with tradition of football success for 40 years, enrollment around 1350, said it will not have a JV (Sophomores) team this year because of numbers.
He said "maybe the game is dying."
Don't know what to say about that.
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Post by dytmook on Aug 15, 2017 16:31:33 GMT -6
Is it because the work gets serious, or is it a combination of increased (possibly excessive) demands plus a realization that they won't really play? One thing that doesn't seem to be mentioned when talking about dwindling numbers is that the same "entitlement" issues we complain about regarding other aspects of football/life. I see many threads mocking (deservedly so) parents for whining about little Johnny not being able to play. It would seem a natural offshoot of that is little Johnny simply not coming out. I was thinking about this too, but from a different angle. How many of you with lower numbers are missing kids that you think would have been key contributors? As I mentioned early, ours are down, but talent hasn't vastly dipped. If anything it's less babysitting going on. The main two I can think of had the potential to be a varsity starters. It would have taken a lot of work, but they were definitely kids we wanted to contribute and be big parts of the team after their 10th grade year. One wanted to be a TE but would have been 5th on the depth chart there and could have possibly started at guard. In a different year maybe he could have been a TE but that's not the need we had plus he had pretty much eaten himself into a guard. Other kid we wanted to be our RT after ours transferred out. Kid was raw and soft but had size you can't teach.
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Post by jlenwood on Aug 16, 2017 5:24:04 GMT -6
Until coaches start really attempting to make football an experience for these kids I feel like you're going to continue to see numbers drop. The other day I was Joking with a buddy of mine about the kids in the band. "Man they get to go to all the games and miss school just like we did, it doesn't matter if the football teams wins or loses to them. They have a grand ole time. Go on elaborate multi day trips places." A local JR high took their band to a competition in Disney world. I mean. As coaches, we can't compete for these bottom feeder kids when it's probably more fun and less work. I have been saying this for years!! This thread has popped up every year for the last 5-6 years it seems and everyone does the same thing, pi$$ and moan about "kids today" and what not. Man, kids aren't any different than they were 50 years ago, the TIMES are different. Why would I want to play football when NOW there are a million other things I could do and get the same amount of fun and satisfaction out of it. Rant Alert, Your feelings may be hurt alert, My Own Opinion Alert: You know who I blame for the continuing decline, teachers and coaches. For years teachers (some) have preached to kids in school that if a person is rich or successful, they screwed-cheated-lied or just plain didn't work hard to get what they have. Result, a lost sense of what work ethic is which translates into "Why work so hard to play football when I can just watch the game or do something easier". I know this is a broad generalization, and not even a majority of educators preach this, but even a small percentage is enough to poison the well. And don't even get me started on dropping PE and shop. As far as coaches, WE (myself included) have just shown up every July for camp to say "Let's see what we have to work with this year". Fellas, there has been smoke for years warning us that this day was coming, and now the building is becoming engulfed in flames because we have been ignoring the EXPERIENCE of what being a team member within the football program can be. To those schools with declining football numbers, I would almost bet my net worth ($100) that almost every other extra curricular is declining as well. There are major issues facing the EC programs in this nation, and sadly everyone wants to blame the kids.
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 16, 2017 18:15:00 GMT -6
You know who I blame for the continuing decline, teachers and coaches. For years teachers (some) have preached to kids in school that if a person is rich or successful, they screwed-cheated-lied or just plain didn't work hard to get what they have. Result, a lost sense of what work ethic is which translates into "Why work so hard to play football when I can just watch the game or do something easier". I know this is a broad generalization, and not even a majority of educators preach this, but even a small percentage is enough to poison the well. And don't even get me started on dropping PE and shop. I have to ask, have you heard ANY? I can't think of a single teacher in my experience every saying that, and I teach in a high poverty 85% + free lunch area. In fact, I would say that the message is the exact opposite... every single teacher is trying to convince the students that their environment is wrong, their parents are wrong, their family is wrong and that HARD WORK IS THE KEY TO SUCCESS, and that the rich people they see became rich from HARD WORK.
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Post by jlenwood on Aug 16, 2017 18:49:54 GMT -6
You know who I blame for the continuing decline, teachers and coaches. For years teachers (some) have preached to kids in school that if a person is rich or successful, they screwed-cheated-lied or just plain didn't work hard to get what they have. Result, a lost sense of what work ethic is which translates into "Why work so hard to play football when I can just watch the game or do something easier". I know this is a broad generalization, and not even a majority of educators preach this, but even a small percentage is enough to poison the well. And don't even get me started on dropping PE and shop. I have to ask, have you heard ANY? I can't think of a single teacher in my experience every saying that, and I teach in a high poverty 85% + free lunch area. In fact, I would say that the message is the exact opposite... every single teacher is trying to convince the students that their environment is wrong, their parents are wrong, their family is wrong and that HARD WORK IS THE KEY TO SUCCESS, and that the rich people they see became rich from HARD WORK. As a matter of fact I have heard that from a few. Like I said, it was a very broad generalization, and frankly way to broad. I am speaking from my experience from the area I coached at.
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Post by coachklee on Aug 16, 2017 19:57:37 GMT -6
I have to ask, have you heard ANY? I can't think of a single teacher in my experience every saying that, and I teach in a high poverty 85% + free lunch area. In fact, I would say that the message is the exact opposite... every single teacher is trying to convince the students that their environment is wrong, their parents are wrong, their family is wrong and that HARD WORK IS THE KEY TO SUCCESS, and that the rich people they see became rich from HARD WORK. As a matter of fact I have heard that from a few. Like I said, it was a very broad generalization, and frankly way to broad. I am speaking from my experience from the area I coached at. Good back & forth although I'd agree with coachd5085 that I can only think of one uber liberal special ed teacher I've team taught with who shared such an opinion with students. Needless to say, him & I barely get along. At least we both agree the biggest handicap in most of our students' lives are in some shape or form their parents so we are able to make things work...
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Post by fantom on Aug 16, 2017 20:14:58 GMT -6
I have to ask, have you heard ANY? I can't think of a single teacher in my experience every saying that, and I teach in a high poverty 85% + free lunch area. In fact, I would say that the message is the exact opposite... every single teacher is trying to convince the students that their environment is wrong, their parents are wrong, their family is wrong and that HARD WORK IS THE KEY TO SUCCESS, and that the rich people they see became rich from HARD WORK. As a matter of fact I have heard that from a few. Like I said, it was a very broad generalization, and frankly way to broad. I am speaking from my experience from the area I coached at. Were they describing their private feelings or what they teach in class?
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Post by blb on Aug 17, 2017 6:02:55 GMT -6
Former player of mine is coaching at a school with enrollment of 1340. Solid football program.
They had 18 freshmen come out.
Their Soccer team had 52 freshmen try out.
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Post by jlenwood on Aug 17, 2017 6:55:49 GMT -6
As a matter of fact I have heard that from a few. Like I said, it was a very broad generalization, and frankly way to broad. I am speaking from my experience from the area I coached at. Were they describing their private feelings or what they teach in class? Again, I am speaking from MY experiences at the program I coached at. Good school, steadily declining community as far as parenting goes, so there are some overlaps with what coachd5085 has. I have heard and have had conversations with some of the teachers, mostly young and newer teachers, who have made comments that were absolutely anti "rich guy". Now, I can understand people talking down on people like Trump, but I had players say teachers were bad mouthing a guy like Romney for being rich. Whether you were for him, there has probably never been a more decent human to run for office. I have had my own kids tell me about comments made during class room time that confirmed this. Is it every teacher, or even a majority, no. Here is a challenge, go to the Facebook page of as many RETIRED teachers that you know. I would put $$ on the fact that there is all kind of anti-rich memes all over their page. I don't want this to hijack a great thread, so don't let my opinions derail the conversation. However, I really would challenge everyone who constantly laments the "Decline of the young don't want to work hard electronic lovin" kids of today, to really step back and re-think how we approach the problem.
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Post by irishdog on Aug 17, 2017 7:22:12 GMT -6
I spent most of my coaching career (45 years) as a high school assistant, coordinator, and head coach; and as a teacher, and administrator (AD and AP). I've worked in public schools, and private schools. I've worked in urban schools, and affluent suburban schools. I've basically seen it all, and heard it all. I've been involved in schools that did things the right way, and schools that did it the wrong way. I've worked for administrators that "got it" when it came to extra-curricular/athletics, and those that didn't have a clue. From my perspective I offer the following:
Kids are still kids. The demands on their time have changed their perspectives and attitudes. Technology has changed how they function. A plethora of other sports and activities have changed their interests. Parental guidance has changed their direction. Teaching has changed their mindset. There's so much more, and ALL of this has had a profound influence on kids today. Coaching football, and the game of football itself is the antithesis of what is being pounded into the heads of kids today. So... is it little wonder why we are beginning to see a decline in numbers in many places.
I started to take note of these "changes" about 10 years ago, and noticed with each year that they became more and more significant. After 45 years of enjoying coaching kids I got tired of fighting these new battles. Why? Because I am who I am, and no matter how hard I tried to "change" with all those changes I was still "old-school". So.. I figured after 45 years it was time for me to step away and let the young guys get their feet wet.
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Post by fantom on Aug 17, 2017 8:28:17 GMT -6
Were they describing their private feelings or what they teach in class? Again, I am speaking from MY experiences at the program I coached at. Good school, steadily declining community as far as parenting goes, so there are some overlaps with what coachd5085 has. Here is a challenge, go to the Facebook page of as many RETIRED teachers that you know. I would put $$ on the fact that there is all kind of anti-rich memes all over their page. Well, I am a retired teacher. A lot of my FB friends are retired teachers. Ummm, do you have a particular sum of money that you'd put up? First, though, you'd have to define exactly what you mean by anti-rich memes.
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Post by jlenwood on Aug 17, 2017 10:41:29 GMT -6
Again, I am speaking from MY experiences at the program I coached at. Good school, steadily declining community as far as parenting goes, so there are some overlaps with what coachd5085 has. Here is a challenge, go to the Facebook page of as many RETIRED teachers that you know. I would put $$ on the fact that there is all kind of anti-rich memes all over their page. Well, I am a retired teacher. A lot of my FB friends are retired teachers. Ummm, do you have a particular sum of money that you'd put up? First, though, you'd have to define exactly what you mean by anti-rich memes. Already told you I have a net worth of $100! linkI found several re-posts on a teachers facebook and they come from the following Pinterest meme page, which he re-posted from several of his retired buddies. This thread is getting into the political realm and will be locked soon, so I'll back off my teacher rant and accusation to keep it on the OP.
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Post by fantom on Aug 17, 2017 10:53:44 GMT -6
Well, I am a retired teacher. A lot of my FB friends are retired teachers. Ummm, do you have a particular sum of money that you'd put up? First, though, you'd have to define exactly what you mean by anti-rich memes. Already told you I have a net worth of $100! linkI found several re-posts on a teachers facebook and they come from the following Pinterest meme page, which he re-posted from several of his retired buddies. This thread is getting into the political realm and will be locked soon, so I'll back off my teacher rant and accusation to keep it on the OP. How are those memes anti-rich or anti-success? And you think that one teacher's FB memes have helped to create a culture where kids are lazy?
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Post by jlenwood on Aug 17, 2017 11:46:34 GMT -6
Already told you I have a net worth of $100! linkI found several re-posts on a teachers facebook and they come from the following Pinterest meme page, which he re-posted from several of his retired buddies. This thread is getting into the political realm and will be locked soon, so I'll back off my teacher rant and accusation to keep it on the OP. How are those memes anti-rich or anti-success? And you think that one teacher's FB memes have helped to create a culture where kids are lazy? Well you're a moderator so I guess we can go on. Seriously, you don't see a trend among those memes? I have answered several of your questions, now kindly answer a few of mine: 1) The majority of those in the teaching profession lean left (democrat/progressive) or right (republican/conservative)? 2)Can you point out ANYWHERE in my posts on this topic where I said one teacher was responsible for creating a culture of laziness? The left/progressive movement has been anti-capitalism for at least a generation now, so yes, I think that has an impact on how people behave (teach) in their profession. Do I know conservative teachers, yes, but they are frankly a minority of the profession in my area. If you and the others you taught with promoted hard work and self reliance, than God bless you and I sincerely admire that. But to say that because you didn't talk down about success is the same as if I said ALL teachers talked down on success, which by the way we know I didn't.
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Post by fantom on Aug 17, 2017 12:13:43 GMT -6
How are those memes anti-rich or anti-success? And you think that one teacher's FB memes have helped to create a culture where kids are lazy? Well you're a moderator so I guess we can go on. Seriously, you don't see a trend among those memes? I have answered several of your questions, now kindly answer a few of mine: 1) The majority of those in the teaching profession lean left (democrat/progressive) or right (republican/conservative)? 2)Can you point out ANYWHERE in my posts on this topic where I said one teacher was responsible for creating a culture of laziness? The left/progressive movement has been anti-capitalism for at least a generation now, so yes, I think that has an impact on how people behave (teach) in their profession. Do I know conservative teachers, yes, but they are frankly a minority of the profession in my area. If you and the others you taught with promoted hard work and self reliance, than God bless you and I sincerely admire that. But to say that because you didn't talk down about success is the same as if I said ALL teachers talked down on success, which by the way we know I didn't. In most classes a teacher's political views don't come into play. In a math class, music class, science class there isn't much opportunity to discuss politics. In social studies classes you can do it more but the curriculum is very tightly controlled.
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Post by jlenwood on Aug 17, 2017 12:42:31 GMT -6
Well you're a moderator so I guess we can go on. Seriously, you don't see a trend among those memes? I have answered several of your questions, now kindly answer a few of mine: 1) The majority of those in the teaching profession lean left (democrat/progressive) or right (republican/conservative)? 2)Can you point out ANYWHERE in my posts on this topic where I said one teacher was responsible for creating a culture of laziness? The left/progressive movement has been anti-capitalism for at least a generation now, so yes, I think that has an impact on how people behave (teach) in their profession. Do I know conservative teachers, yes, but they are frankly a minority of the profession in my area. If you and the others you taught with promoted hard work and self reliance, than God bless you and I sincerely admire that. But to say that because you didn't talk down about success is the same as if I said ALL teachers talked down on success, which by the way we know I didn't. In most classes a teacher's political views don't come into play. In a math class, music class, science class there isn't much opportunity to discuss politics. In social studies classes you can do it more but the curriculum is very tightly controlled. Fair enough.
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Post by rsmith627 on Aug 18, 2017 10:57:01 GMT -6
We have had two teams in our conference so far eliminate their JV teams. I definitely think our game is dying.
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Post by blb on Aug 18, 2017 14:58:04 GMT -6
We have had two teams in our conference so far eliminate their JV teams. I definitely think our game is dying.
I know what you're saying, but don't agree.
I think HS Football may be in trouble, and has been for some time.
HS coaches need to be prepared to defend the game.
HS coaches need to adjust and adapt to the reality they are dealing with.
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Post by rsmith627 on Aug 18, 2017 14:59:30 GMT -6
We have had two teams in our conference so far eliminate their JV teams. I definitely think our game is dying.
I know what you're saying, but don't agree.
I think HS Football may be in trouble, and has been for some time.
HS coaches need to be prepared to defend the game.
HS coaches need to adjust and adapt to the reality they are dealing with.
I was mistaken in this post. One program doesn't have a JV, the other is refusing to play top tier teams in our conference because they don't want to get pummeled. I've never heard of that being a thing, but it is what it is.
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Post by blb on Aug 18, 2017 15:15:22 GMT -6
I was mistaken in this post. One program doesn't have a JV, the other is refusing to play top tier teams in our conference because they don't want to get pummeled. I've never heard of that being a thing, but it is what it is.
If that latter school has enough players to field a JV team and refuses to play the schedule - that's a conference issue.
Maybe they need to examine their football program, or find a new league to play in.
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